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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 5)

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06-02-2013, 07:56 PM
  #326
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At yet, absolutely nothing you have said unvalidates his contract either.

There isn't much reason, patience or foresight in this this thread, it's mostly panic and knee jerk reactions. Something that the previous management group was criticized for, by the very same people that are falling into that trap right here. Its actually quite entertaining.
Really?

How about getting a top 3 contract when he had mid pack numbers? How about his mediocre playoff showings?

How do you offer a guy like that just shy of what Lundqvist is making and more than what Quick is making?

I'm baffled at how people think the contract was fair. I shouldn't even have to explain why it was a gross overpayment.

As for patience. Price has been with the Habs for 5 seasons and has been inconsistent. That said, I'm still willing to give him more time to prove that he can live up to his hype. But how do you give a guy $6.5M and use the word "patience" when he underperforms. I'd say it's a bad contract at this point and I said it the day I saw the numbers.

I will if Bergy plays hardball with PK's next contract after handing out overpayments to Price and DD

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06-02-2013, 08:00 PM
  #327
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We did? Please elaborate.
We had Budaj, that's it. So what else?
Trading him was not going to happen, so scratch that one out.
So what else? Sign an UFA goalie that isn't even close to being as good as Price? And then what? What's the point of that? That would be a really dumb move, so scratch that.
So what are these other choices we had?

Really, when you deeply think it through, there wasn't any respectable choice.



You don't understand? It's pretty simple. Our only other option was Budaj.

We could not have held out Price, he would have been eligible for arbitration. Perhaps that's a route you would have preferred, but with no goalies in our ranks, I don't see how management would have gone there.
I was hoping for a deal around 4.5M, but there are two sides that negotiate and when one has you by the balls, the contract reflects the situation.
Price camp had all the power, that's why he got this huge deal.
Bergevin camp had all the power vs PK, that's why PK got such a tiny deal even his critics were surprised by.
I'm not going to explain this again. Price was going nowhere, we were in complete control. You don't like up players a premium cap hits and long term deals out of fear. MB locked him up because he evaluated Price and believed he was worth the money and not because it was our one and only choice. Things aren't this black and white ever.

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06-02-2013, 08:11 PM
  #328
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carey price is gonna win a cup one day but it wont be with montreal, hes too mentally weak to play in a big hockey market. trade him to st. louis for chris stewart, jake allen and a 1st rounder(dunno if we can squeeze in a 1st rounder)

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...045/story.html


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06-02-2013, 08:16 PM
  #329
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carey price is gonna win a cup one day but it wont be with montreal, hes too mentally weak to play in a big hockey market. trade him to st. louis for chris stewart, jake allen and a 1st rounder(dunno if we can squeeze in a 1st rounder)
That would never happen. I would be happy with Stewart and Allen though.

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06-02-2013, 10:35 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I'm not going to explain this again. Price was going nowhere, we were in complete control. You don't like up players a premium cap hits and long term deals out of fear. MB locked him up because he evaluated Price and believed he was worth the money and not because it was our one and only choice. Things aren't this black and white ever.
Dude, it's not because ''Price was going nowhere'' that we had complete control. Matter of fact, we didn't have complete control seeing how Price was eligible for arbitration.
If no agreement was reached then an arbitrator would have settled on a salary for the upcoming season. And letting things go to arbitration isn't necessarily the best both in terms of salary or relationship.
So ya, we didn't have complete control to the point of saying ''whatever, we'll just play this waiting game''.

Let me make this straight, I'm not saying that this makes the contract okay. I'm merely bringing up a reasoning for it. I don't think it's as simple as you make it seem (ironically you're the one telling me things aren't this black and white). If that's the case, and Bergeron is a guy that signs his players based on evaluation, then explain to me why he would hold out PK in order to give him a deal worth peanuts? Did Bergevin value PK to be worth nothing more than a 4th Dman? Obviously not.
To me it showed Bergeron understood the negotiating game pretty well.
He held out PK because in his case, we indeed had complete control. PK could literally do nothing but sit at home if he was unhappy with the negotiations.

Price on the other hand would have had the arbitration ruling, and if the team didn't want to sign him, he'd have become an UFA. So no, that's not complete control buddy.

Then you have to factor in the fact that there's no other goalie that's even close to Price that we could have brought in. It's not like on defense with 5 other guys playing. There's only one goalie stopping pucks, and our only other option was Budaj.
So no, that's not really dealing from a position of power.

I don't understand what's so hard to see here. That doesn't mean that the deal was good or that the evaluation of MB was spot on, but Bergevin's hands were a lot more tied than you seem to think.

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06-03-2013, 01:48 AM
  #331
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Dude, it's not because ''Price was going nowhere'' that we had complete control. Matter of fact, we didn't have complete control seeing how Price was eligible for arbitration.
If no agreement was reached then an arbitrator would have settled on a salary for the upcoming season. And letting things go to arbitration isn't necessarily the best both in terms of salary or relationship.
So ya, we didn't have complete control to the point of saying ''whatever, we'll just play this waiting game''.

Let me make this straight, I'm not saying that this makes the contract okay. I'm merely bringing up a reasoning for it. I don't think it's as simple as you make it seem (ironically you're the one telling me things aren't this black and white). If that's the case, and Bergeron is a guy that signs his players based on evaluation, then explain to me why he would hold out PK in order to give him a deal worth peanuts? Did Bergevin value PK to be worth nothing more than a 4th Dman? Obviously not.
To me it showed Bergeron understood the negotiating game pretty well.
He held out PK because in his case, we indeed had complete control. PK could literally do nothing but sit at home if he was unhappy with the negotiations.

Price on the other hand would have had the arbitration ruling, and if the team didn't want to sign him, he'd have become an UFA. So no, that's not complete control buddy.

Then you have to factor in the fact that there's no other goalie that's even close to Price that we could have brought in. It's not like on defense with 5 other guys playing. There's only one goalie stopping pucks, and our only other option was Budaj.
So no, that's not really dealing from a position of power.

I don't understand what's so hard to see here. That doesn't mean that the deal was good or that the evaluation of MB was spot on, but Bergevin's hands were a lot more tied than you seem to think.
It's hard to say that there were no options when arbitration in itself is an option, one in place for this exact type of scenario. It certainly would have bought the team one or 2 years to evaluate alternatives, and I am guessing that an arbitrator would have arrived at a number close to but less than 6.5M.

And really I don't care about the so called "piss off" effect of arbitration, Price could use some fire in his eyes like we saw in Subban this year.

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06-03-2013, 02:20 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by TT1 View Post
carey price is gonna win a cup one day but it wont be with montreal, hes too mentally weak to play in a big hockey market. trade him to st. louis for chris stewart, jake allen and a 1st rounder(dunno if we can squeeze in a 1st rounder)

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...045/story.html
There's a lot of cows and horses in St. Louis, Carey would be happy.

Can you imagine him losing his job to Halak again.

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06-03-2013, 03:10 AM
  #333
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yea that would be hilarious rofl, st. louis is stacked with goalies tho :[

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06-03-2013, 05:13 AM
  #334
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yea that would be hilarious rofl, st. louis is stacked with goalies tho :[
Stacked? Their goalies were so bad that an average 22 year old kid usurped both Halak and Elliot for the #1 position. They don't have a single #1 goalie in St. Louis. In retrospect I'm sure they wish they'd kept Bishop and never traded for Halak to begin with. Allen didn't even get a shot because he was playing lights out in the AHL, he got a shot because of how badly Halak/Elliot were crapping the bed.

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06-03-2013, 07:02 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
It's hard to say that there were no options when arbitration in itself is an option, one in place for this exact type of scenario. It certainly would have bought the team one or 2 years to evaluate alternatives, and I am guessing that an arbitrator would have arrived at a number close to but less than 6.5M.

And really I don't care about the so called "piss off" effect of arbitration, Price could use some fire in his eyes like we saw in Subban this year.
Well yes, technically speaking, arbitration was an option.
From a technical stand point, trading him, and not signing him was also an option.
But realistically speaking, I don't think either were options.

I just don't think going through arbitration was really worth much.
If we look at the fact that Price is still quite young, with his better years still ahead of him, if you agree that he would have gotten something close to his current yearly hit (let's say 5.5M), then locking him up now for long term at a slightly higher price (again, considering they believe he will keep getting better as he matures) kinda makes sense.
Also, if you think that going to arbitration and signing for only one year will light a fire under his eyes, then you might end up paying him even more than what he has now. Not only that, but you also risk losing him to the open market if he wants to test out the waters.

So in the end, just how much more worth it would it have been to go through arbitration? Not a whole lot, which is why I think they didn't go that route. Simply wasn't worth the trouble.

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06-03-2013, 07:11 AM
  #336
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Price will not be traded, his contract wont allow it, he is a Hab for the length of that deal and everyone has to live with it. I would like a team that was not so dependant on a star goalie but one that was strong defensively and offensively and the goalie was a strong third liner type if you will. If your team puts so much pressure on the goalie to steal you games, it makes it obvious that the team in front is nowhere near what it needs to be. That is us and it has been that way for many goalies and years past, for what ever reason. Every GM since Savard in 93 has had holes everywhere but as long as we had a goalie that could stand on his head then everything was ok. We need a team that is built with a balance of toughness, size and skill or we will never win or go far in this league. Reference the final 4.

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06-03-2013, 11:33 AM
  #337
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Price will not be traded, his contract wont allow it, he is a Hab for the length of that deal and everyone has to live with it. I would like a team that was not so dependant on a star goalie but one that was strong defensively and offensively and the goalie was a strong third liner type if you will. If your team puts so much pressure on the goalie to steal you games, it makes it obvious that the team in front is nowhere near what it needs to be. That is us and it has been that way for many goalies and years past, for what ever reason. Every GM since Savard in 93 has had holes everywhere but as long as we had a goalie that could stand on his head then everything was ok. We need a team that is built with a balance of toughness, size and skill or we will never win or go far in this league. Reference the final 4.
That's funny because Montreal played the best hockey I've ever seen them play in my lifetime (been watching since 04 sadly) in terms of structural play at the start of the season. During the first half of the season getting a solid performance out of Carey Price wasn't essential for us to win. The team as you described was flawless defensively (they were allowing less than 30 shots on net every game) and good offensively. They would dominate teams in terms of possession and neutralize them completely in the neutral/defensize zone. Now I don't know what happened to that team I saw during that stretch because they were a completely different team at the end of the season. I don't know if it's because of Markov slowing down, Emelin being injured or teams taking us seriously unlike the first half of the season where everybody saw us as a bottom feeder.

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06-03-2013, 11:37 AM
  #338
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Stacked? Their goalies were so bad that an average 22 year old kid usurped both Halak and Elliot for the #1 position. They don't have a single #1 goalie in St. Louis. In retrospect I'm sure they wish they'd kept Bishop and never traded for Halak to begin with. Allen didn't even get a shot because he was playing lights out in the AHL, he got a shot because of how badly Halak/Elliot were crapping the bed.
The reason any goalie can look good in St. Louis is due to Ken Hitchcock's system. He can make a goalie feel like a million bucks. Just look at his resume, he made average goalies like Roman Cechmanek and Steve Mason look like all stars when they played for him.

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06-03-2013, 11:49 AM
  #339
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Stacked? Their goalies were so bad that an average 22 year old kid usurped both Halak and Elliot for the #1 position. They don't have a single #1 goalie in St. Louis. In retrospect I'm sure they wish they'd kept Bishop and never traded for Halak to begin with. Allen didn't even get a shot because he was playing lights out in the AHL, he got a shot because of how badly Halak/Elliot were crapping the bed.
Get a grip, please. Jake Allen got where he is because of injuries plain and simple. you may be crapping the bed but the goaltending in St. Louis is fine. A healthy Halak is a good #1 goaltender.

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06-03-2013, 11:56 AM
  #340
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That's funny because Montreal played the best hockey I've ever seen them play in my lifetime (been watching since 04 sadly) in terms of structural play at the start of the season. During the first half of the season getting a solid performance out of Carey Price wasn't essential for us to win. The team as you described was flawless defensively (they were allowing less than 30 shots on net every game) and good offensively. They would dominate teams in terms of possession and neutralize them completely in the neutral/defensize zone. Now I don't know what happened to that team I saw during that stretch because they were a completely different team at the end of the season. I don't know if it's because of Markov slowing down, Emelin being injured or teams taking us seriously unlike the first half of the season where everybody saw us as a bottom feeder.
Maybe other teams figured out what we were doing and changed their game plan to take advantage of our weaknesses. The world isn't static.

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06-03-2013, 12:14 PM
  #341
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if carey has another sub par season,his contract will haunt us .if he doesnt bounce back huge next year,we are in serious trouble.mb must draft a goalie this year as well,nothin to do with price ,but drafting goalies often is smart.

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06-03-2013, 12:32 PM
  #342
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if carey has another sub par season,his contract will haunt us .if he doesnt bounce back huge next year,we are in serious trouble.mb must draft a goalie this year as well,nothin to do with price ,but drafting goalies often is smart.
Drafting goalies often isn't smart. Drafting goalies when it's opportune or it's the BPA is smart. The reason why you don't draft so many of them is because goalies when they're elite, are extremely valuable. When they aren't elite, they're not worth anything because there are so many of them out there. How many goalies go for 1st round draft picks (Varlamov shouldn't count)?

You draft goalies when that goalie is the BPA. Otherwise no point. However I do think that if Price has a season with stats similar to this one, it'll be bad news for us. Let's draft a goalie this year or next in the first 2/3 rounds (preferably 2nd or 3rd round) to get us back into Contenders in about 6-7 years. be more than happy to wait for that goalie to come around, when he's ready. No rushing of prospects please.

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06-03-2013, 12:39 PM
  #343
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They drafted Simila and Missiaen post-Price. Not good picks but they did. You don't need only the 9th rounder to get goaltending. We could have done it in the 3rd, 4th or any other round. Not sure why goaltending should be reserved to the 9th. Mind you, I am mostly against 1st round for goaltending...but 2nd and beyond is fine with me.
I was just pointing out that our drafting tendancies with respect to goaltenders haven't really changed since we drafted Price. We will take a flyer on a goalie with a late round pick but rarely use anything better. We have less late round picks, so draft less goalies total.

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06-03-2013, 12:57 PM
  #344
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Drafting goalies often isn't smart. Drafting goalies when it's opportune or it's the BPA is smart. The reason why you don't draft so many of them is because goalies when they're elite, are extremely valuable. When they aren't elite, they're not worth anything because there are so many of them out there. How many goalies go for 1st round draft picks (Varlamov shouldn't count)?

You draft goalies when that goalie is the BPA. Otherwise no point. However I do think that if Price has a season with stats similar to this one, it'll be bad news for us. Let's draft a goalie this year or next in the first 2/3 rounds (preferably 2nd or 3rd round) to get us back into Contenders in about 6-7 years. be more than happy to wait for that goalie to come around, when he's ready. No rushing of prospects please.
depth in all positions is key.ask the flyers if drafting goalies is important.without quality goaltending you are going nowhere.it is the most important position on any team.

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06-03-2013, 01:09 PM
  #345
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depth in all positions is key.ask the flyers if drafting goalies is important.without quality goaltending you are going nowhere.it is the most important position on any team.
The Flyers top 3 goaltenders on their depth chart were not drafted by them. #4 in Kovar in the 2006 draft was selected in the 4th round.

Again depth in all positions is great and all, but if you read my post correctly, you would realize that drafting more goalies is not the way to go. BPA is and goalie selection must be done appropriately. Goalies are hit or miss way more than any other position IMO because they take longer to develop. But look at any team's goalie draft history over past 10 years and tell me how many of them have drafted more than 1 quality goaltender (only 1 comes to mind, LAK) and only 1 was in the first round (Bernier, not Quick who was a 3rd rounder).

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06-03-2013, 03:00 PM
  #346
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Stacked? Their goalies were so bad that an average 22 year old kid usurped both Halak and Elliot for the #1 position. They don't have a single #1 goalie in St. Louis. In retrospect I'm sure they wish they'd kept Bishop and never traded for Halak to begin with. Allen didn't even get a shot because he was playing lights out in the AHL, he got a shot because of how badly Halak/Elliot were crapping the bed.
halak is a no1 and elliot is a solid no2, then u have allen whos a future no1er.. how is that not being stacked?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=72686 elliott has been consistent since 11-12 (i know we can attribute this to st.louis's system and the small sample size but it still says something)

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=72667 halak, he obviously cant carry the same load as price but if he plays 55-60 games hes a solid 1a goalie. this is where he needs to be complimented by a solid no2 like elliott. he also showed during montreals playoff run that he has the ability to carry a heavy load and still perform at a high level

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=72046 price, he had a solid season in 10-11 but that was played under martin. sure he can play alot (which is a coveted trait amongst elite goaltenders) but being a no1 goalie requires being consistent aswell, he hasnt shown that yet.

if st.louis doesnt have a no1 then we dont either :S


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06-03-2013, 03:50 PM
  #347
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It was the goalies coach fault, I knew something was wrong with our "Franchise" goalie. It was that evil goalie coach!

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06-03-2013, 03:59 PM
  #348
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It was the goalies coach fault, I knew something was wrong with our "Franchise" goalie. It was that evil goalie coach!
I think the goalie coach had something to do with it. Price being on his knees 24/7 pissed me the hell off.

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06-03-2013, 07:40 PM
  #349
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That's funny because Montreal played the best hockey I've ever seen them play in my lifetime (been watching since 04 sadly) in terms of structural play at the start of the season. During the first half of the season getting a solid performance out of Carey Price wasn't essential for us to win. The team as you described was flawless defensively (they were allowing less than 30 shots on net every game) and good offensively. They would dominate teams in terms of possession and neutralize them completely in the neutral/defensize zone. Now I don't know what happened to that team I saw during that stretch because they were a completely different team at the end of the season. I don't know if it's because of Markov slowing down, Emelin being injured or teams taking us seriously unlike the first half of the season where everybody saw us as a bottom feeder.
Other teams figured out our style and we paid for it, thats what good coaches and organizations do. We were built to play one way, small and fast and when teams take that away we are exposed like we were in the losing slump that ended the season and continued in the first round. We need a mix of speed, toughness and size, the NHL is just like life, too much of one thing is not good for you but everything in moderation.

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06-03-2013, 09:28 PM
  #350
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lol does anyone follow jack todd on twitter? dude is the sickest CP hater ever

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