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Oilers and Gagner working on extension: [UPD: Elected Arbitration]

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06-03-2013, 10:25 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
No.
You buy him out, you can't re sign him.
The way Horcoff's contract is structured it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy him out as the oilers have cap room next season.

Buyouts are really only helpful for teams when they are desperate for cap space in the coming year.

Horcoff is scheduled to actually make $7M over the next two years, despite a cap hit of $11M. His buyout would be $4.7M

The Oilers would get cap relief next year ($2.8M) and the year after ($1.8M) and would hurt their cap space by $1.2M in each of 2015-16 and 2016-17.

$2.2 M in total cap relief and it hurts the team in years when they are likely to be up against the cap.

For the Oilers it's a big price to pay for saving $2.3 M in cash over two years. Horcoff's definitely worth a little over a million a year as a 3C, so it definitely makes the most financial sense to keep him around.

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06-03-2013, 10:33 PM
  #252
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5 years 23 million is my guess.

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06-04-2013, 12:07 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by shoop View Post
The way Horcoff's contract is structured it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy him out as the oilers have cap room next season.

Buyouts are really only helpful for teams when they are desperate for cap space in the coming year.

Horcoff is scheduled to actually make $7M over the next two years, despite a cap hit of $11M. His buyout would be $4.7M

The Oilers would get cap relief next year ($2.8M) and the year after ($1.8M) and would hurt their cap space by $1.2M in each of 2015-16 and 2016-17.

$2.2 M in total cap relief and it hurts the team in years when they are likely to be up against the cap.

For the Oilers it's a big price to pay for saving $2.3 M in cash over two years. Horcoff's definitely worth a little over a million a year as a 3C, so it definitely makes the most financial sense to keep him around.
Teams each get 2 amnesty buyouts, buying out Horcoff with one of them means it doesn't effect the team's cap hit at all going forward.

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06-04-2013, 12:10 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Teams each get 2 amnesty buyouts, buying out Horcoff with one of them means it doesn't effect the team's cap hit at all going forward.
I wouldn`t be surprised if we can trade Horcoff actually. His cap hit is higher than what he makes for the next two years, so if there are any teams that want to take advantage of that, we might be able to move him.

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06-04-2013, 12:19 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I wouldn`t be surprised if we can trade Horcoff actually. His cap hit is higher than what he makes for the next two years, so if there are any teams that want to take advantage of that, we might be able to move him.
Exceptionally unlikely.

Teams around the cap are trying to be competitive on a budget, not save money at the expense of being competitive. Horcoff is a spent force on a bad contract, and doesn't help teams that need to be prudent in what players they invest in.

In a cap drop year, no one is going to take Horcoff's contract, they'll just wait until he's bought out and offer him maybe a mill per, which is the going rate for a 4th line center who can occasionally sub in on the 3rd line.

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06-04-2013, 12:39 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Exceptionally unlikely.

Teams around the cap are trying to be competitive on a budget, not save money at the expense of being competitive. Horcoff is a spent force on a bad contract, and doesn't help teams that need to be prudent in what players they invest in.

In a cap drop year, no one is going to take Horcoff's contract, they'll just wait until he's bought out and offer him maybe a mill per, which is the going rate for a 4th line center who can occasionally sub in on the 3rd line.
No you don't understand. The reason Horcoff would have value is this year he'd save 1.5 million against the cap floor and next year 2.5 million. That means a team could spend under the cap floor in real dollars while still meeting the limit. Horcoff is still going to garner a couple million on the open market and the fact that he could save a team like Florida real dollars he may have value. It's happened before where a team had to find a contract to reach the floor (islanders iirc) and one in which you could do that while spending less actual dollars and getting a real player could have value.

What about something like this, Horcoff-2nd for Matthias, Jovanovski. The Panthers could use a veteran center and they have better young big centers to replace Matthias. A 2nd round pick and the Oilers buy out Jovanovski instead meaning the Panthers get an actual player that could help them to an extent. It's not a slam dunk but i do think if MacT was creative he could sell a deal like this to a team. The Oilers may need to take on a different bad contract but he could still net a piece we could use. Teams don't mind veteran two way centers with size and a reputation for leadership, there could be a partner. 3.5 million average over 2 seasons isn't crazy especially if a team can get a deal they don't want off the books and like i said caphit isn't a concern. He's not as spent a force as you think i'd argue, don't you remember how bad we where when he got hurt, he certainly still has some value/ability IMO.


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06-04-2013, 12:44 AM
  #257
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I don't think that really holds value until next offseason.

A team could save $1.5M, but they'd still be paying a borderline useless player $4M.

The final year where he's only making $3M would be a little more palatable.

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06-04-2013, 01:06 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
I don't think that really holds value until next offseason.

A team could save $1.5M, but they'd still be paying a borderline useless player $4M.

The final year where he's only making $3M would be a little more palatable.
I am as big a Horcoff critic as any, but borderline useless is a stretch. I bet there are a few teams that would be ok with acquiring Horcoff as a 3C, especially if the Oilers retained some salary.

It wouldn't surprise me if, on a better team, with a reduced role and a renewed enthusiasm, Horcoff could return to a 40p+, solid defense player again.

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06-04-2013, 01:09 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
No you don't understand. The reason Horcoff would have value is this year he'd save 1.5 million against the cap floor and next year 2.5 million. That means a team could spend under the cap floor in real dollars while still meeting the limit. Horcoff is still going to garner a couple million on the open market and the fact that he could save a team like Florida real dollars he may have value. It's happened before where a team had to find a contract to reach the floor (islanders iirc) and one in which you could do that while spending less actual dollars and getting a real player could have value.

What about something like this, Horcoff-2nd for Matthias, Jovanovski. The Panthers could use a veteran center and they have better young big centers to replace Matthias. A 2nd round pick and the Oilers buy out Jovanovski instead meaning the Panthers get an actual player that could help them to an extent. It's not a slam dunk but i do think if MacT was creative he could sell a deal like this to a team. The Oilers may need to take on a different bad contract but he could still net a piece we could use. Teams don't mind veteran two way centers with size and a reputation for leadership, there could be a partner. 3.5 million average over 2 seasons isn't crazy especially if a team can get a deal they don't want off the books and like i said caphit isn't a concern. He's not as spent a force as you think i'd argue, don't you remember how bad we where when he got hurt, he certainly still has some value/ability IMO.
As Dnicks pointed out, you're still paying 4 million on a borderline useless player, budget teams can't afford to do that.

And yes, the Oilers were bad without him, but they were also terrible with him. He has a short stretch of decent games when he came back from injury, but that was it. People attributed that playoff push to Horcoff for some odd reason, but he was already back to his old ineffective self when the adrenaline wore off(2 goals, no assists in 7 games leading up to the Calgary game and playoff position). That run had a hell of a lot more to do with Hall(15 points in those same 7 games), Eberle(8 points), and RNH(11 points) playing their best hockey of the season.

Yes, he's a spent force, and has been for a while now, even his biggest fan(Mact) is able to see it these days.

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06-04-2013, 06:40 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Oiltankjob 4 93 64 View Post
5 years 23 million is my guess.
I agree. Then we just need a power forward (Horton) to run shotgun on his left side and Yakopov on the right and It's gonna be one of the best second lines in the league as long as we can afford to keep it together.

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06-04-2013, 06:57 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
I am as big a Horcoff critic as any, but borderline useless is a stretch. I bet there are a few teams that would be ok with acquiring Horcoff as a 3C, especially if the Oilers retained some salary.

It wouldn't surprise me if, on a better team, with a reduced role and a renewed enthusiasm, Horcoff could return to a 40p+, solid defense player again.
horc could easily be traded for other teams' bad contracts. a good example is Fleury. He is owed 5 mill per year for two years. Pitts has been awful in faceoffs and would probably jump at the chance to dump maf.

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06-04-2013, 07:52 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Mr Sakich View Post
Pitts has been awful in faceoffs
So has Horcoff.

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06-04-2013, 11:34 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
As Dnicks pointed out, you're still paying 4 million on a borderline useless player, budget teams can't afford to do that.

And yes, the Oilers were bad without him, but they were also terrible with him. He has a short stretch of decent games when he came back from injury, but that was it. People attributed that playoff push to Horcoff for some odd reason, but he was already back to his old ineffective self when the adrenaline wore off(2 goals, no assists in 7 games leading up to the Calgary game and playoff position). That run had a hell of a lot more to do with Hall(15 points in those same 7 games), Eberle(8 points), and RNH(11 points) playing their best hockey of the season.

Yes, he's a spent force, and has been for a while now, even his biggest fan(Mact) is able to see it these days.
Many of them are already paying multimillion dollars to players that can't help (Jovanovski, Upshall). It seems to me you may not of read my full comment. I'm aware that concessions may need to be made. His deal may not be moveable but there's certainly a chance it could be.

Horcoff isn't useless as i pointed out last season we got that lesson and it was harsh, the team without him wasn't even watchable. It wasn't the playoff push i gave Horcoff credit for it was the not getting outshot by 10+ shots everygame. You really don't remember how bad it was? Those guys played there best hockey because Horcoff was playing some of the tough minutes. You can hate Horcoff all you want but you're living in a dream world if you don't think the coaches used Horcoff in a checking role to open up the kids for offense. Without Horcoff Nuge was forced to handle the tough minutes, he did his best but it was just too much for him.

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06-04-2013, 11:50 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Teams each get 2 amnesty buyouts, buying out Horcoff with one of them means it doesn't effect the team's cap hit at all going forward.
I forgot about that. Yes, amnesty buyout for Horcoff totally makes sense. The extra $5.5M in cap room would definitely help with the multitude of needs the team has. What Horcoff brings to the table can be replaced for far less of a cap hit.

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06-04-2013, 12:04 PM
  #265
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horc could easily be traded for other teams' bad contracts. a good example is Fleury. He is owed 5 mill per year for two years. Pitts has been awful in faceoffs and would probably jump at the chance to dump maf.
I don't see this as a possibility. Pitt would be taking on 5.5 in cap hit while still having to pay there fourth line center 4+3mil a year for the next two years. Don't see it. I used to think a trade was a possibility because the dollars drop off towards the end. I always figured a team trying to reach the cap floor may be interested. Not sure the cap savings is worth the down side of paying a stooge 3.5 on average the next two seasons. I think these teams while dollar conscientious still want to be competitive on the ice. Buy him out or keep him I'll be very impressed if macT is able to pawn this guy off on someone.

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06-04-2013, 01:33 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by shoop View Post
I forgot about that. Yes, amnesty buyout for Horcoff totally makes sense. The extra $5.5M in cap room would definitely help with the multitude of needs the team has. What Horcoff brings to the table can be replaced for far less of a cap hit.
yeah i've been saying for a long time that a buyout in the summer of 2014 makes a lot of sense... i still stand by that... 2014-15 is the first season that we will start to have to really worry about the cap... clearing 5.5 million off the books would help quite a bit... it would also give lander (and potentially this years 1st rounder) a little more seasoning, so losing horcoff off the 3rd line wouldn't hurt as much

a buyout in 2014 just makes too much sense to not happen

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06-04-2013, 01:57 PM
  #267
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It doesnt make a lot of sense to buy out Horcoff. Who are you replacing him with? Belanger? Smithson? Someone else's cast off? He only has two years left and we arent in imminent cap danger. There really isnt a pressing reason to do so.

If we are looking at saving money, Gagner should be the guy going out the door. At least Horcoff can carry his own water. The last thing this team needs to be doing is handing out some goofy long term deal to a guy who cant even carry his own weight.

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06-04-2013, 02:23 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
It wouldn't surprise me if, on a better team, with a reduced role and a renewed enthusiasm, Horcoff could return to a 40p+, solid defense player again.
On my beer league team. Horcoff is not NHL worthy.

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06-04-2013, 02:45 PM
  #269
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Gagner's next contract: How much, how long?
^
Hopefully not our problem after the draft

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06-04-2013, 04:08 PM
  #270
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Gagner's next contract: How much, how long?
^
Hopefully not our problem after the draft
Amen.

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06-04-2013, 05:18 PM
  #271
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Many of them are already paying multimillion dollars to players that can't help (Jovanovski, Upshall). It seems to me you may not of read my full comment. I'm aware that concessions may need to be made. His deal may not be moveable but there's certainly a chance it could be.

Horcoff isn't useless as i pointed out last season we got that lesson and it was harsh, the team without him wasn't even watchable. It wasn't the playoff push i gave Horcoff credit for it was the not getting outshot by 10+ shots everygame. You really don't remember how bad it was? Those guys played there best hockey because Horcoff was playing some of the tough minutes. You can hate Horcoff all you want but you're living in a dream world if you don't think the coaches used Horcoff in a checking role to open up the kids for offense. Without Horcoff Nuge was forced to handle the tough minutes, he did his best but it was just too much for him.
I did read it, and I don't agree with it.

The kids went on a run, and Horcoff was along for the ride, not a driving force. When the kids got focused on and had no room to produce, the team dropped like a stone right down into lottery position, and Horcoff was as usual no where to be found.

Mact said it best "There were players in the bottom six who were content to be at best, a non-factor", like it or not, that applies to Horcoff.

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06-04-2013, 06:00 PM
  #272
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I would have disagree with those that are saying buyouts are only ever used when a team is in desperate need of cap space. I think a buyout can also be used to rid a team of a problem player. There are a few examples of this over the years. In Horcoff we have a player whose spirit has been crushed by a sense of entitlement and having to endure years of futility. Is this the guy we want leading the team?? MacT has made a few telling comments since he took over. He said the locker room was a circus and made the comment about Horcoffs spirit. Time to flip the page. He should have been dumped with the old guard. If nobody wants him buy him out.

MacT Sending Horcoff on his way:


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06-05-2013, 03:14 PM
  #273
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It doesnt make a lot of sense to buy out Horcoff. Who are you replacing him with? Belanger? Smithson? Someone else's cast off? He only has two years left and we arent in imminent cap danger. There really isnt a pressing reason to do so.

If we are looking at saving money, Gagner should be the guy going out the door. At least Horcoff can carry his own water. The last thing this team needs to be doing is handing out some goofy long term deal to a guy who cant even carry his own weight.
Shawn Gagner is Sam Horcoff?

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06-05-2013, 03:42 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by shoop View Post
The way Horcoff's contract is structured it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy him out as the oilers have cap room next season.

Buyouts are really only helpful for teams when they are desperate for cap space in the coming year.

Horcoff is scheduled to actually make $7M over the next two years, despite a cap hit of $11M. His buyout would be $4.7M

The Oilers would get cap relief next year ($2.8M) and the year after ($1.8M) and would hurt their cap space by $1.2M in each of 2015-16 and 2016-17.

$2.2 M in total cap relief and it hurts the team in years when they are likely to be up against the cap.

For the Oilers it's a big price to pay for saving $2.3 M in cash over two years. Horcoff's definitely worth a little over a million a year as a 3C, so it definitely makes the most financial sense to keep him around.
I think that Horcoff can get 2M in the open market. Katz will need to pay him 1,175M over next three years. I would wait until next year and buy him out then. Maybe he will have one good season left in him. 30-36pts and plus player 52% in face offs

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06-05-2013, 03:51 PM
  #275
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Shawn Gagner is Sam Horcoff?
When Horcoff was same age with Gagner he produced 61G 8+14=22 0,36 point/game
Gagner had 48G 14+24=38 0,79 point/game

Do the math

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