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NYR Top Defensemen of All-Time (Rules & Preliminary Discussion)

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Old
06-04-2013, 08:40 AM
  #51
Crease
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Prior to Norris Trophy

The Norris Trophy was established in 1954. Prior to that, we can rely on voting records for end-of-season All-Star teams. You can find the full dataset here. From 1927 to 1932, it's fairly straightforward. But from 1932-1942 they had separate ballots for RD and LD. The problem is overlap. For example in 1933 Earl Seibert recieved 6 votes for 1st-Team RD and 4 votes for 1st-Team LD. Any idea on how to reconcile the early-year voting records into something useful?

These are the list of Rangers that pop up in the the voting records during the early years:

Ching Johson
Earl Seibert
Art Coulter
Ott Heller
Babe Pratt
Muzz Patrick
Neil Colville
Frank Eddolls
Hy Buller
Leo Reise

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Old
06-04-2013, 09:00 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
Greschner......probably somewhere 6-10. Its really difficult to access guys from different eras with different styles of play. The first few are easy, after that it gets harder. Personally, I always thought he was a bit overrated and not in the conversation with the best of his era. But that might be timing more than anything else. He came up when the great Francis era teams were on the wane and was perhaps in his prime when we had good teams but were always overshadowed by the Isles and Potvin. But thinking about it, in manynways he was similar to the accepted template for good overall D today, especially those who can make good outlet passes, carry the puck and penetrate the zone. We could certainly use a player of his skills today. There were times I thought he would make a better center than a defenseman and I seem to remember a short-lived experiment when that happened.
I remember the Rangers using Greschner at center at least a couple times and at least one of them was for an extended period. Greschner did very well. I'm not sure how he'd fit into the present game. Skating wise more like a bigger version of Del Zotto--he wasn't the fastest player. He was really slick and smart with the puck though. One of the best stick handlers that I've ever seen--and a very creative passer. He also had some edge to his game and was known for getting under other guy's skin kind of like Avery he was a bit of a smart ass. A decent fighter to good fighter. Definitely one of our top players back then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
And, I do want to discuss another guy often forgotten here: Rod Seiling. When the Rangers traded Andy Bathgate to Toronto, they got a whole parcel of younger players in return included young established forward Bob Nevin (later Ranger captain), minor league defenseman Arnie Brown (who was part of our regular dmen in the early years of the Francis era) and Seiling. Seiling was, in many ways, the key player in the trade.

By the way, that trade was one of the first that I can remember that traded vets for prospects: a very common variety of trade now but unusual then.

Seiling was considered to be the top junior player in Canada (no draft in those days but the Leafs owned his rights) and the Rangers getting him was as if they had traded for the #1 draft pick. It took quite a few years for Seiling to establish himself because he was both a forward and a defenseman. It took a bit of time in the minors (brief stints with the Rangers) to work out that he would be better on the blue line.

He established himself as what today would be considered a strong second pair D. People didn't think of dmen in tiers as we do today. He was very consistent averaging about 5G and 30A a year. Not very physical but a strong skater and just dependable and solid. I have a very vivid memory of a game at MSG where Bobby Orr skated into the Ranger zone with a good head of steam, one on one against Rod, and Rod easily rode him off the puck and into the boards.

I'd rank him somewhere 10-20, probably more like 15-20. Because he was such a low key guy, he's kind of been forgotten but still very much remembered and appreciated by me.
Seiling wasn't a guy that was always easy to like. Kind of like his era's version of Rozsival--or a lesser James Patrick. Good player--skill wise. Not very physical. Seemed to be happiest when the limelight was on someone else. Fans did not like him. They wanted more. Rangers fans have a history of jumping all over certain players. He was one of them.

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Old
06-04-2013, 09:04 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
This is a table summarizing Norris Trophy finishes as a New York Ranger. I used Sturminator & TheDevilMadeMe's methodology, which you can read more about here and here.

Essentially, the rankings include only defensemen who received at least one first-place vote, or two top-3 votes, or at least two points. The idea was to weed out skewed data in any given year caused by a single sportswriter's bias opinion.

Name 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th 12th 13th 14th Total
Brian Leetch 2 1 1 2 1 2 86
Brad Park 5 1 1 84
Harry Howell 1 1 2 1 2 1 67
Bill Gadsby 3 1 1 1 64
Jim Neilson 1 1 1 1 36
Doug Harvey 1 1 23
Barry Beck 1 1 1 23
Rod Seiling 1 1 13
Dan Girardi 1 9
Lou Fontinato 1 8
Tim Horton 1 3
Ron Greschner 1 1
Keeping in mind that some of these players played in a 6 team or 12 team league. The reverse argument on that is making one of those top 6 teams you had to be pretty damn good.

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06-04-2013, 09:24 AM
  #54
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Yeah, Gresch and MDZ are somewhat alike: I've had the thought before.

But, you know, I was in the blueseats for many years among fans just as critical as those today and I really don't recall any great animosity towards Seiling. I know how Ranger fans can be particularly in regards to certain defensemen. In fact, the guy I recall everyone getting on during that era was Dale Rolfe. Even Park came in for some criticism, fans seeming always to want more from him. But that might have been frustration from him not being Orr and us never winning the Cup. But Seiling.....I just don't remember any great dislike of him.

I was in section 432 between the red and blue lines on the side of MSG behind the benches. Maybe each section or sections had their own whipping boy.

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Old
06-04-2013, 09:26 AM
  #55
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Greatest Rangers defenseman HAS to be Leetch. Not even a debate in my mind. I'll give you that Park had to compete against Orr for the Norris during his tenure as a Ranger. Look at who Leetch was competing with for over a decade: Chelios, Niedermayer, Pronger, Stevens, MacInnis, Coffey, Borque. Anyone there not a hall of famer?

Tenure: Leetch
Norris Trophies: Leetch
Conn Smythe: Leetch
Stanley Cup: Leetch
Calder: Leetch
Goals/Assists/Points: Leetch
NYR defensemen records: Leetch

If you want to draw CAREER comparisons between Park and Leetch, then you can make a better argument for Park and his (and Orr's) influence on the game, 2nd place Norris finishes, etc...

But, the title of this thread is about NYR Top Defenseman of all time and that, my friends, is not even close.

Brad played here 7+ seasons. Brian played here 16+. Both at a very high level.

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06-04-2013, 09:32 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Keeping in mind that some of these players played in a 6 team or 12 team league. The reverse argument on that is making one of those top 6 teams you had to be pretty damn good.
Looking back retroactively it's nice to wax poetic about a guy finishing 2nd a bunch of times. To me, Leetch's 2 Norris Wins should have a lot more weight than 5x 2nd place. Nobody cares who the runner up is when you're winning the Cup, placing 2nd in the Norris trophy voting, or finishing in 2nd place during the regular season. It's not nearly as important as actually winning the thing and it's not like Leetch was going up against a bunch of slouches when he won the thing.

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06-04-2013, 09:43 AM
  #57
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Some excellent bios put together by our colleagues in the ATD project. Better than any Wikipedia page. They summarize career accolades but even more interesting IMO are the snippets that illuminate their style of play.

Barry Beck
Hy Buller
Art Coulter
Bill Gadsby
Lou Fontinato
Brian Leetch
Brad Park
Doug Harvey
Harry Howell
Jim Neilson
Ching Johnson
Ott Heller
Earl Seibert
Babe Pratt
Leo Reise

In case I missed any, the full list of bios can be found here.

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06-04-2013, 09:48 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Looking back retroactively it's nice to wax poetic about a guy finishing 2nd a bunch of times. To me, Leetch's 2 Norris Wins should have a lot more weight than 5x 2nd place. Nobody cares who the runner up is when you're winning the Cup, placing 2nd in the Norris trophy voting, or finishing in 2nd place during the regular season. It's not nearly as important as actually winning the thing and it's not like Leetch was going up against a bunch of slouches when he won the thing.
I don't dare take anything away from Leetch's Norrises, but second place finishes are noteworthy when the only person to defend better than you is the greatest hockey player this planet has ever produced. If Leetch broke into the league in the late 60s, what would his trophy case look like? I have Leetch ahead of Park at the moment, by the way.

I think the argument for Park over Leetch comes down to the idea that Park was a better defensemen and simply had the unfortunate luck of being in the league at the same time as Bobby Orr. I don't know if its a valid argument, but it is certainly a compelling one.

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06-04-2013, 10:00 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I don't dare take anything away from Leetch's Norrises, but second place finishes are noteworthy when the only person to defend better than you is the greatest hockey player this planet has ever produced. If Leetch broke into the league in the late 60s, what would his trophy case look like? I have Leetch ahead of Park at the moment, by the way.
Greatest ever is a debate for another day. I'd argue against greatest defenseman as well.

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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I think the argument for Park over Leetch comes down to the idea that Park was a better defensemen and simply had the unfortunate luck of being in the league at the same time as Bobby Orr. I don't know if its a valid argument, but it is certainly a compelling one.
It also comes down to tenure, consistency, winning the Cup, winning the Calder, and much much more. Leetch was pretty much a career Ranger. Brad wasn't (not his fault). That's enough for me.

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Old
06-04-2013, 01:22 PM
  #60
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Interested to see where Rod Seiling and Arnie Brown fit in...

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06-04-2013, 02:32 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I'm curious to see where Beukeboom is going to fit in this conversation.
He is not a top 20 no matter the criteria.

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06-04-2013, 02:39 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
You're missing a couple years he got a few votes and/or was considered for the Norris. The way this is represented may make it seem like, on the surface, Leetch was raking in votes in a lot of the years you listed where he had a low ranking in Norris voting - and may end up distorting and distracting from how few votes he garnered in those years.

EDIT: Same could be said of Park's 2nds. Also, Park wasn't 4th in 73; he was tied for 3rd. Not sure why you include Leetch's trade year but not Park's. Yea, Leetch played more games with NYR that season, but it was still a partial season with NYR nonetheless.


Here is this same info with complete voting results in the years Leetch and Park were in the mix for the Norris (historical award voting info can be found here -- HUGE props to BM67 and the rest of those guys for putting it together: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...=145895&page=5)


Brad Park:

68-69 - No votes; rookie season.


69-70 NORRIS: (319/324)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 180
2. Brad Park, NYR 58
3. Carl Brewer, Det 22
4. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 18
5. Jim Neilson, NYR 11
6. Al Arbour, StL 9
7. Pat Stapleton, Chi 8
T8. Wayne Connelly, Det 3
T8. Keith Magnuson, Chi 3
T8. Doug Mohns, Chi 3
T11. Doug Jarrett, Chi 2
T11. Barclay Plager, StL 2


70-71 NORRIS: (378/378)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 208
2. Brad Park, NYR 57
3. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 35
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 23
T5. Bob Baun, Tor 10
T5. Keith Magnuson, Chi 10
7. Bill White, Chi 9
T8. Dallas Smith, Bos 6
T8. Jim Neilson, NYR 6
10. Rod Seiling, NYR 5
11. Ted Harris, Min 4
12. Tim Horton, NYR 3
T13. Jim Roberts, StL 1
T13. Don Awrey, Bos 1


71-72 NORRIS: (378/378)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 204
2. Brad Park, NYR 117
3. Bill White, Chi 25
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 16
5. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 8
6. Dallas Smith, Bos 3
T7. Barclay Plager, StL 1
T7. Gary Bergman, Det 1
T7. Gilles Marotte, LA 1
T7. Rod Seiling, NYR 1
T7. Ted Harris, Min 1


72-73 NORRIS: (432/432)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 224
2. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 58
T3. Bill White, Chi 36
T3. Brad Park, NYR 36
5. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 25
6. Serge Savard, Mtl 22
7. Rod Seiling, NYR 11
8. Dave Burrows, Pit 6
T9. Tim Horton, Buf 4
T9. Terry Harper, LA 4
T11. Gary Bergman, Det 2
T11. Larry Hillman, Buf 2
T13. Pat Stapleton, Chi 1
T13. Barclay Plager, StL 1


73-74 NORRIS: (432/432)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 236
2. Brad Park, NYR 98
3. Bill White, Chi 44
4. Barry Ashbee, Phi 11
5. Borje Salming, Tor 10
6. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 8
7. Denis Potvin, NYI 6
8. Dave Burrows, Pit 4
T9. Ed Van Impe, Phi 3
T9. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 3
T9. Keith Magnuson, Chi 3
T12. Serge Savard, Mtl 1
T12. Jocelyn Guevremont, Van 1
T12. Barclay Plager, StL 1
T12. Larry Robinson, Mtl 1
T12. Terry Harper, LA 1
T12. Phil Russell, Chi 1


74-75 NORRIS: (486/486)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 266
2. Denis Potvin, NYI 99
3. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 45
4. Borje Salming, Tor 31
5. Serge Savard, Mtl 14
T6. Don Awrey, Stl-Mtl 6
T6. Jerry Korab, Buf 6
8. Brad Park, NYR 5
9. Terry Harper, LA 4
10. Jim Schoenfeld, Buf 3
T11. Carol Vadnais, Bos 2
T11. Ed Van Impe, Phi 2
T13. Dave Burrows, Pit 1
T13. Larry Robinson, Mtl 1
T13. Ron Stackhouse, Pit 1


Only 13 Games with NYR 75-76 NORRIS: (486/486)
1. Denis Potvin, NYI 237
2. Brad Park, NYR/Bos 96
3. Borje Salming, Tor 56
4. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 39
5. Serge Savard, Mtl 23
6. Jimmy Watson, Phi 13
7. Dave Burrows, Pit 8
8. Jean Potvin, NYI 5
T9. Terry Harper, Det 3
T9. Andre Dupont, Phi 3
T11. Dallas Smith, Bos 1
T11. Don Awrey, Mtl 1
T11. Larry Robinson, Mtl 1


---


Brian Leetch:


87-88 - No votes. First NHL games played. Only played a partial season (17 games).


88-89 NORRIS:
Chris Chelios, Mtl 226 (37-12-5)
Paul Coffey, Pit 115 (14-14-3)
Al MacInnis, Cgy 57 (3-10-12)
Ray Bourque, Bos 56 (3-8-17)
Steve Duchesne, LA 30 (2-5-5)
Brad McCrimmon, Cgy 24 (2-4-2)
Gary Suter, Cgy 15 (2-1-2)
Kevin Lowe, Edm 14 (0-4-2)
Phil Housley, Buf (0-2-5)
Scott Stevens, Wsh 8 (0-1-5)
Brian Leetch, NYR 6 (0-1-3)
Paul Reinhart, Van 4 (0-1-1)
Craig Ludwig, Mtl 1 (0-0-1)


89-90 NORRIS:
Ray Bourque 315 (63-0-0)
Al MacInnis 127 (0-38-13)
Doug Wilson 40 (0-7-19)
Paul Coffey 33 (0-7-12)
Phil Housley 32 (0-7-11)
Al Iafrate 8 (0-2-2)
Mike Ramsey 4 (0-1-1)
Chris Chelios 3 (0-1-0)
Paul Cavallini 2 (0-0-2)
Craig Ludwig 1 (0-0-1)
Brian Leetch 1 (0-0-1)
Jamie Macoun 1 (0-0-1)


90-91 NORRIS:
Ray Bourque 257 (35-27-1)
Al MacInnis 228 (27-28-9)
Chris Chelios 56 (2-9-19)
Brian Leetch 30 (2-0-20)
Paul Coffey 8 (0-0-8)
Kevin Hatcher 7 (0-1-4)
Scott Stevens 6 (0-1-3)
James Patrick 2 (0-0-2)


91-92 NORRIS:
Brian Leetch 335 (65-3-1)
Ray Bourque 112 (3-25-22)
Phil Housley 82 (0-21-19)
Scott Stevens 44 (1-9-12)
Larry Murphy 37 (0-9-10)
Chris Chelios 8 (0-2-2)
Kevin Hatcher 2 (0-0-2)
Al MacInnis 1 (0-0-1)


92-93 -- No votes; injury year.


93-94 NORRIS:
Ray Bourque 199 (26-21-6)
Scott Stevens 195 (24-23-6)
Al MacInnis 60 (4-6-22)
Sergei Zubov 15 (0-2-9)
Brian Leetch 10 (0-2-4)
Chris Chelios 3 (0-0-3)
Paul Coffey 1 (0-0-1)
Nicklas Lidstrom 1 (0-0-1)
Sandis Ozolinsh 1 (0-0-1)
Larry Murphy 1 (0-0-1)


94-95 NORRIS: - No votes (sort of; see below)
Due to conference-only play the 94-95 voting was conducted in two stages. An east/west vote gave 3 finalists, (6 for all-star defense) from each conference, which were then voted on by a committee of 15 PHWA members.
Paul Coffey 69 (12-3-0)
Chris Chelios 39 (2-9-2)
Ray Bourque 20 (1-1-12)
Larry Murphy 7 (0-2-3)
Steve Duchesne 0 (0-0-0)
Brian Leetch 0 (0-0-0)


95-96 NORRIS: Switched to 5th place voting.
Chris Chelios 408 (22-19-9-3-1)
Ray Bourque 403 (23-16-8-7-0)
Brian Leetch 245 (6-6-23-7-7)
Vladimir Konstantinov 131 (2-6-7-10-4)
Paul Coffey 83 (0-4-2-12-9)
Nicklas Lidstrom 54 (0-1-3-7-11)
Roman Hamrlik 25 (1-0-0-3-6)
Gary Suter 11 (0-0-1-0-6)
Eric Desjardins 9 (0-1-0-0-2)
Scott Stevens 9 (0-0-0-2-3)
Teppo Numminen 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
Mark Tinordi 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Sergei Zubov 5 (0-0-0-1-2)
Phil Housley 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Larry Murphy 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Shawn Chambers 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Calle Johansson 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Ed Jovanovski 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


96-97 NORRIS:
Brian Leetch 494 (42-8-3-1-0)
Vladimir Konstantinov 178 (2-10-13-6-5)
Sandis Ozolinsh 176 (2-12-9-8-3)
Chris Chelios 172 (0-7-18-9-6)
Scott Stevens 171 (7-8-4-7-4)
Nicklas Lidstrom 60 (0-5-2-3-6)
Darryl Sydor 45 (1-1-1-5-8)
Ray Bourque 45 (0-2-2-4-9)
Eric Desjardins 21 (0-1-0-3-5)
Oleg Tverdovsky 9 (0-0-1-1-1)
Bryan Berard 8 (0-0-0-2-2)
Kevin Hatcher 6 (0-0-0-2-0)
Sergei Zubov 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Robert Svehla 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Steve Duchesne 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Chris Pronger 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Derian Hatcher 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Sergei Gonchar 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Dmitri Mironov 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


97-98 - No votes.


98-99 NORRIS:
Al MacInnis 548 (54-0-1-1-0)
Nicklas Lidstrom 234 (0-21-9-13-3)
Ray Bourque 157 (0-9-12-8-10)
Chris Pronger 107 (1-5-9-3-8)
Eric Desjardins 91 (0-6-4-6-11)
Scott Stevens 55 (0-3-4-4-2)
Derian Hatcher 53 (0-4-3-24)
Brian Leetch 49 (0-2-3-5-5)
Fredrik Olausson 48 (0-1-5-4-4)
Phil Housley 40 (1-2-1-3-2
Larry Murphy 21 (0-1-1-3-0)
Scott Niedermayer 18 (0-2-0-1-1)
Sergei Zubov 12 (0-0-1-2-1)
Aleksander Karpovtsev 6 (0-0-1-0-1)
Adam Foote 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Darryl Sydor 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Rob Blake 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Chris Chelios 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Darryl Shannon 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


99-00 - No votes


00-01 NORRIS:
Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 600 (56-5-1-0-0)
Ray Bourque, COL 251 (4-16-12-10-9)
Scott Stevens, N.J. 203 (1-15-14-4-6)
Rob Blake, L.A.-COL 176 (1-11-8-14-7)
Brian Leetch, NYR 126 (0-9-7-5-13)
Sergei Gonchar, WSH 94 (0-1-9-12-6)
Al MacInnis, STL 49 (0-0-6-5-4)
Sergei Zubov, DAL 28 (0-1-1-4-4)
Brian Rafalski, N.J. 26 (0-2-1-2-1)
Eric Desjardins, PHI 14 (0-2-0-0-0)
Chris Pronger, STL 14 (0-0-1-2-3)
Wade Redden, OTT 13 (0-0-1-2-2)
Derian Hatcher, DAL 9 (0-0-1-1-1)
Dan McGillis, PHI 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Ed Jovanovski, VAN 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Brad Lukowich, DAL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Jason Smith, EDM 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Oleg Tverdovsky, ANA 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


01-02 NORRIS:
Nicklas Lidstrom, Det 472 (29-20-7-2-1)
Chris Chelios, Det 431 (28-10-13-4-4)
Rob Blake, Col 321 (4-19-22-12-2)
Sergei Gonchar, Was 147 (0-6-6-22-9)
Chris Pronger, StL 62 (0-4-1-8-5)
Ed Jovanovski, Van 53 (0-0-7-3-9)
Teppo Numminen, Phx 44 (0-1-3-5-7)
Adrian Aucoin, NYI 28 (1-1-0-2-5)
Brian Leetch, NYR 22 (0-0-1-2-11)
Mattias Ohlund, Van 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Scott Stevens, N.J. 5 (0-0-1-0-0)


02-03 NORRIS:
Nicklas Lidstrom 560 (42-20-0-0-0)
Al MacInnis 486 (20-38-4-0-0)
Derian Hatcher 142 (0-1-21-9-3)
Sergei Gonchar 131 (0-1-12-17-13)
Rob Blake 62 (0-0-8-5-7)
Ed Jovanovski 58 (0-2-5-5-4)
Zdeno Chara 55 (0-0-4-10-5)
Sergei Zubov 37 (0-0-3-4-10)
Wade Redden 21 (0-0-2-2-5)
Adam Foote 18 (0-0-1-3-4)
Tomas Kaberle 9 (0-0-0-3-0)
Dan Boyle 8 (0-0-0-2-2)
Scott Niedermayer 7 (0-0-1-0-2)
Eric Desjardins 6 (0-0-0-1-3)
Brian Leetch 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Scott Stevens 5 (0-0-0-1-2)
Chris Chelios 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Sandis Ozolinsh 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


03-04 NORRIS: (played partial season with NYR - 57 games; ended season with Toronto)
Scott Niedermayer, NJD 872 (72-13-10-3-2)
Zdeno Chara, OTT 563 (19-36-16-11-8)
Chris Pronger, STL 345 (7-19-16-17-11)
Bryan McCabe, TOR 189 (1-12-10-10-15)
Adrian Aucoin, NYI 166 (2-3-12-16-17)
Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 165 (1-6-10-19-6)
Mathieu Schneider, DET 144 (1-2-17-7-14)
Rob Blake, COL 124 (1-8-5-9-6)
Sergei Gonchar, BOS 55 (0-3-4-4-2)
Wade Redden, OTT 31 (0-0-2-6-3)
Brian Leetch, TOR 19 (0-0-2-2-3)
Sheldon Souray, MON 12 (0-1-0-0-5)
Marek Malik, VAN 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
Mattias Ohlund, VAN 3 (0-0-0-0-3)
Pavel Kubina, TAM 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Marek Zidlicky, NAS 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Bryan Berard, CHI 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Dan Boyle, TAM 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Mike Rathje, SAN 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Dick Tarnstrom, PIT 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Sergei Zubov, DAL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Seeing Seiling on multiple lists reminds me of how stupid fans at MSG can be. He was despised by the crowds like so many defnsemen before and after him.

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06-04-2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
You're missing a couple years he got a few votes and/or was considered for the Norris. The way this is represented may make it seem like, on the surface, Leetch was raking in votes in a lot of the years you listed where he had a low ranking in Norris voting - and may end up distorting and distracting from how few votes he garnered in those years.

EDIT: Same could be said of Park's 2nds. Also, Park wasn't 4th in 73; he was tied for 3rd. Not sure why you include Leetch's trade year but not Park's. Yea, Leetch played more games with NYR that season, but it was still a partial season with NYR nonetheless.


Here is this same info with complete voting results in the years Leetch and Park were in the mix for the Norris (historical award voting info can be found here -- HUGE props to BM67 and the rest of those guys for putting it together: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...=145895&page=5)


Brad Park:

68-69 - No votes; rookie season.


69-70 NORRIS: (319/324)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 180
2. Brad Park, NYR 58
3. Carl Brewer, Det 22
4. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 18
5. Jim Neilson, NYR 11
6. Al Arbour, StL 9
7. Pat Stapleton, Chi 8
T8. Wayne Connelly, Det 3
T8. Keith Magnuson, Chi 3
T8. Doug Mohns, Chi 3
T11. Doug Jarrett, Chi 2
T11. Barclay Plager, StL 2


70-71 NORRIS: (378/378)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 208
2. Brad Park, NYR 57
3. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 35
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 23
T5. Bob Baun, Tor 10
T5. Keith Magnuson, Chi 10
7. Bill White, Chi 9
T8. Dallas Smith, Bos 6
T8. Jim Neilson, NYR 6
10. Rod Seiling, NYR 5
11. Ted Harris, Min 4
12. Tim Horton, NYR 3
T13. Jim Roberts, StL 1
T13. Don Awrey, Bos 1


71-72 NORRIS: (378/378)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 204
2. Brad Park, NYR 117
3. Bill White, Chi 25
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 16
5. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 8
6. Dallas Smith, Bos 3
T7. Barclay Plager, StL 1
T7. Gary Bergman, Det 1
T7. Gilles Marotte, LA 1
T7. Rod Seiling, NYR 1
T7. Ted Harris, Min 1


72-73 NORRIS: (432/432)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 224
2. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 58
T3. Bill White, Chi 36
T3. Brad Park, NYR 36
5. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 25
6. Serge Savard, Mtl 22
7. Rod Seiling, NYR 11
8. Dave Burrows, Pit 6
T9. Tim Horton, Buf 4
T9. Terry Harper, LA 4
T11. Gary Bergman, Det 2
T11. Larry Hillman, Buf 2
T13. Pat Stapleton, Chi 1
T13. Barclay Plager, StL 1


73-74 NORRIS: (432/432)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 236
2. Brad Park, NYR 98
3. Bill White, Chi 44
4. Barry Ashbee, Phi 11
5. Borje Salming, Tor 10
6. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 8
7. Denis Potvin, NYI 6
8. Dave Burrows, Pit 4
T9. Ed Van Impe, Phi 3
T9. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 3
T9. Keith Magnuson, Chi 3
T12. Serge Savard, Mtl 1
T12. Jocelyn Guevremont, Van 1
T12. Barclay Plager, StL 1
T12. Larry Robinson, Mtl 1
T12. Terry Harper, LA 1
T12. Phil Russell, Chi 1


74-75 NORRIS: (486/486)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 266
2. Denis Potvin, NYI 99
3. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 45
4. Borje Salming, Tor 31
5. Serge Savard, Mtl 14
T6. Don Awrey, Stl-Mtl 6
T6. Jerry Korab, Buf 6
8. Brad Park, NYR 5
9. Terry Harper, LA 4
10. Jim Schoenfeld, Buf 3
T11. Carol Vadnais, Bos 2
T11. Ed Van Impe, Phi 2
T13. Dave Burrows, Pit 1
T13. Larry Robinson, Mtl 1
T13. Ron Stackhouse, Pit 1


Only 13 Games with NYR 75-76 NORRIS: (486/486)
1. Denis Potvin, NYI 237
2. Brad Park, NYR/Bos 96
3. Borje Salming, Tor 56
4. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 39
5. Serge Savard, Mtl 23
6. Jimmy Watson, Phi 13
7. Dave Burrows, Pit 8
8. Jean Potvin, NYI 5
T9. Terry Harper, Det 3
T9. Andre Dupont, Phi 3
T11. Dallas Smith, Bos 1
T11. Don Awrey, Mtl 1
T11. Larry Robinson, Mtl 1


---


Brian Leetch:


87-88 - No votes. First NHL games played. Only played a partial season (17 games).


88-89 NORRIS:
Chris Chelios, Mtl 226 (37-12-5)
Paul Coffey, Pit 115 (14-14-3)
Al MacInnis, Cgy 57 (3-10-12)
Ray Bourque, Bos 56 (3-8-17)
Steve Duchesne, LA 30 (2-5-5)
Brad McCrimmon, Cgy 24 (2-4-2)
Gary Suter, Cgy 15 (2-1-2)
Kevin Lowe, Edm 14 (0-4-2)
Phil Housley, Buf (0-2-5)
Scott Stevens, Wsh 8 (0-1-5)
Brian Leetch, NYR 6 (0-1-3)
Paul Reinhart, Van 4 (0-1-1)
Craig Ludwig, Mtl 1 (0-0-1)


89-90 NORRIS:
Ray Bourque 315 (63-0-0)
Al MacInnis 127 (0-38-13)
Doug Wilson 40 (0-7-19)
Paul Coffey 33 (0-7-12)
Phil Housley 32 (0-7-11)
Al Iafrate 8 (0-2-2)
Mike Ramsey 4 (0-1-1)
Chris Chelios 3 (0-1-0)
Paul Cavallini 2 (0-0-2)
Craig Ludwig 1 (0-0-1)
Brian Leetch 1 (0-0-1)
Jamie Macoun 1 (0-0-1)


90-91 NORRIS:
Ray Bourque 257 (35-27-1)
Al MacInnis 228 (27-28-9)
Chris Chelios 56 (2-9-19)
Brian Leetch 30 (2-0-20)
Paul Coffey 8 (0-0-8)
Kevin Hatcher 7 (0-1-4)
Scott Stevens 6 (0-1-3)
James Patrick 2 (0-0-2)


91-92 NORRIS:
Brian Leetch 335 (65-3-1)
Ray Bourque 112 (3-25-22)
Phil Housley 82 (0-21-19)
Scott Stevens 44 (1-9-12)
Larry Murphy 37 (0-9-10)
Chris Chelios 8 (0-2-2)
Kevin Hatcher 2 (0-0-2)
Al MacInnis 1 (0-0-1)


92-93 -- No votes; injury year.


93-94 NORRIS:
Ray Bourque 199 (26-21-6)
Scott Stevens 195 (24-23-6)
Al MacInnis 60 (4-6-22)
Sergei Zubov 15 (0-2-9)
Brian Leetch 10 (0-2-4)
Chris Chelios 3 (0-0-3)
Paul Coffey 1 (0-0-1)
Nicklas Lidstrom 1 (0-0-1)
Sandis Ozolinsh 1 (0-0-1)
Larry Murphy 1 (0-0-1)


94-95 NORRIS: - No votes (sort of; see below)
Due to conference-only play the 94-95 voting was conducted in two stages. An east/west vote gave 3 finalists, (6 for all-star defense) from each conference, which were then voted on by a committee of 15 PHWA members.
Paul Coffey 69 (12-3-0)
Chris Chelios 39 (2-9-2)
Ray Bourque 20 (1-1-12)
Larry Murphy 7 (0-2-3)
Steve Duchesne 0 (0-0-0)
Brian Leetch 0 (0-0-0)


95-96 NORRIS: Switched to 5th place voting.
Chris Chelios 408 (22-19-9-3-1)
Ray Bourque 403 (23-16-8-7-0)
Brian Leetch 245 (6-6-23-7-7)
Vladimir Konstantinov 131 (2-6-7-10-4)
Paul Coffey 83 (0-4-2-12-9)
Nicklas Lidstrom 54 (0-1-3-7-11)
Roman Hamrlik 25 (1-0-0-3-6)
Gary Suter 11 (0-0-1-0-6)
Eric Desjardins 9 (0-1-0-0-2)
Scott Stevens 9 (0-0-0-2-3)
Teppo Numminen 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
Mark Tinordi 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Sergei Zubov 5 (0-0-0-1-2)
Phil Housley 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Larry Murphy 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Shawn Chambers 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Calle Johansson 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Ed Jovanovski 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


96-97 NORRIS:
Brian Leetch 494 (42-8-3-1-0)
Vladimir Konstantinov 178 (2-10-13-6-5)
Sandis Ozolinsh 176 (2-12-9-8-3)
Chris Chelios 172 (0-7-18-9-6)
Scott Stevens 171 (7-8-4-7-4)
Nicklas Lidstrom 60 (0-5-2-3-6)
Darryl Sydor 45 (1-1-1-5-8)
Ray Bourque 45 (0-2-2-4-9)
Eric Desjardins 21 (0-1-0-3-5)
Oleg Tverdovsky 9 (0-0-1-1-1)
Bryan Berard 8 (0-0-0-2-2)
Kevin Hatcher 6 (0-0-0-2-0)
Sergei Zubov 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Robert Svehla 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Steve Duchesne 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Chris Pronger 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Derian Hatcher 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Sergei Gonchar 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Dmitri Mironov 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


97-98 - No votes.


98-99 NORRIS:
Al MacInnis 548 (54-0-1-1-0)
Nicklas Lidstrom 234 (0-21-9-13-3)
Ray Bourque 157 (0-9-12-8-10)
Chris Pronger 107 (1-5-9-3-8)
Eric Desjardins 91 (0-6-4-6-11)
Scott Stevens 55 (0-3-4-4-2)
Derian Hatcher 53 (0-4-3-24)
Brian Leetch 49 (0-2-3-5-5)
Fredrik Olausson 48 (0-1-5-4-4)
Phil Housley 40 (1-2-1-3-2
Larry Murphy 21 (0-1-1-3-0)
Scott Niedermayer 18 (0-2-0-1-1)
Sergei Zubov 12 (0-0-1-2-1)
Aleksander Karpovtsev 6 (0-0-1-0-1)
Adam Foote 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Darryl Sydor 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Rob Blake 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Chris Chelios 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Darryl Shannon 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


99-00 - No votes


00-01 NORRIS:
Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 600 (56-5-1-0-0)
Ray Bourque, COL 251 (4-16-12-10-9)
Scott Stevens, N.J. 203 (1-15-14-4-6)
Rob Blake, L.A.-COL 176 (1-11-8-14-7)
Brian Leetch, NYR 126 (0-9-7-5-13)
Sergei Gonchar, WSH 94 (0-1-9-12-6)
Al MacInnis, STL 49 (0-0-6-5-4)
Sergei Zubov, DAL 28 (0-1-1-4-4)
Brian Rafalski, N.J. 26 (0-2-1-2-1)
Eric Desjardins, PHI 14 (0-2-0-0-0)
Chris Pronger, STL 14 (0-0-1-2-3)
Wade Redden, OTT 13 (0-0-1-2-2)
Derian Hatcher, DAL 9 (0-0-1-1-1)
Dan McGillis, PHI 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Ed Jovanovski, VAN 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Brad Lukowich, DAL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Jason Smith, EDM 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Oleg Tverdovsky, ANA 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


01-02 NORRIS:
Nicklas Lidstrom, Det 472 (29-20-7-2-1)
Chris Chelios, Det 431 (28-10-13-4-4)
Rob Blake, Col 321 (4-19-22-12-2)
Sergei Gonchar, Was 147 (0-6-6-22-9)
Chris Pronger, StL 62 (0-4-1-8-5)
Ed Jovanovski, Van 53 (0-0-7-3-9)
Teppo Numminen, Phx 44 (0-1-3-5-7)
Adrian Aucoin, NYI 28 (1-1-0-2-5)
Brian Leetch, NYR 22 (0-0-1-2-11)
Mattias Ohlund, Van 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Scott Stevens, N.J. 5 (0-0-1-0-0)


02-03 NORRIS:
Nicklas Lidstrom 560 (42-20-0-0-0)
Al MacInnis 486 (20-38-4-0-0)
Derian Hatcher 142 (0-1-21-9-3)
Sergei Gonchar 131 (0-1-12-17-13)
Rob Blake 62 (0-0-8-5-7)
Ed Jovanovski 58 (0-2-5-5-4)
Zdeno Chara 55 (0-0-4-10-5)
Sergei Zubov 37 (0-0-3-4-10)
Wade Redden 21 (0-0-2-2-5)
Adam Foote 18 (0-0-1-3-4)
Tomas Kaberle 9 (0-0-0-3-0)
Dan Boyle 8 (0-0-0-2-2)
Scott Niedermayer 7 (0-0-1-0-2)
Eric Desjardins 6 (0-0-0-1-3)
Brian Leetch 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Scott Stevens 5 (0-0-0-1-2)
Chris Chelios 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Sandis Ozolinsh 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


03-04 NORRIS: (played partial season with NYR - 57 games; ended season with Toronto)
Scott Niedermayer, NJD 872 (72-13-10-3-2)
Zdeno Chara, OTT 563 (19-36-16-11-8)
Chris Pronger, STL 345 (7-19-16-17-11)
Bryan McCabe, TOR 189 (1-12-10-10-15)
Adrian Aucoin, NYI 166 (2-3-12-16-17)
Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 165 (1-6-10-19-6)
Mathieu Schneider, DET 144 (1-2-17-7-14)
Rob Blake, COL 124 (1-8-5-9-6)
Sergei Gonchar, BOS 55 (0-3-4-4-2)
Wade Redden, OTT 31 (0-0-2-6-3)
Brian Leetch, TOR 19 (0-0-2-2-3)
Sheldon Souray, MON 12 (0-1-0-0-5)
Marek Malik, VAN 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
Mattias Ohlund, VAN 3 (0-0-0-0-3)
Pavel Kubina, TAM 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Marek Zidlicky, NAS 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Bryan Berard, CHI 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Dan Boyle, TAM 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Mike Rathje, SAN 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Dick Tarnstrom, PIT 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Sergei Zubov, DAL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Seeing Seiling on multiple lists reminds me of how stupid fans at MSG can be. He was despised by the crowds like so many defnsemen before and after him.

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06-04-2013, 02:48 PM
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I keep going back to the pre-Norris voting records linked in post #51, and I can't come up with a good way to digest the data in the years where ballots separated LD from RD. Anyone have any suggestions?

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06-04-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I keep going back to the pre-Norris voting records linked in post #51, and can't come up with a good way of digesting the data in the years in where ballots separated LD and RD. Anyone have any suggestions?
Is there any reason why we can't combine all the votes? I mean, you'd end up with the possibility of "Co-Norris" but that's not awful.

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06-04-2013, 02:54 PM
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Is there any reason why we can't combine all the votes? I mean, you'd end up with the possibility of "Co-Norris" but that's not awful.
Other than the fact that its a complete headache, no. For example:

Quote:
DEFENSE: FIRST TEAM: RIGHT D: Eddie Shore, Bos 29; Ching Johnson, NYR 2; King Clancy, Tor 1
LEFT D: Ching Johnson, NYR 17; Hap Day, Tor 4; Bill Brydge, NYA 3; King Clancy, Tor 3; Lionel Conacher, Mtl M 3; Eddie Shore, Bos 2
ALTERNATE TEAM: RIGHT D: King Clancy, Tor 10; Lionel Conacher, Mtl M 7; Earl Seibert, NYR 2; Ching Johnson, NYR 3; Ted Graham, Chi 2; Al Shields, Ott 2; Red Horner, Tor 1; Red Dutton, NYA 1; Taffy Abel, Chi 1; Eddie Shore, Bos 1; Hap Day, Tor 1; Sylvio Mantha, Mtl 1
LEFT D: Lionel Conacher, Mtl M 8; King Clancy, Tor 7; Ching Johnson, NYR 8; Lionel Hitchman, Bos 2; Taffy Abel, Chi 2; Doug Young, Det 3; Ted Graham, Chi 1; Bill Brydge, NYA 1
Shore's got 29 votes for First Team RD, 3 votes for First Team LD, and 1 vote for Alt Team RD. Johnson's got 2 votes for First Team RD, 17 votes for First Team LD, 3 votes for Alt Team RD, and 8 votes for Alt Team LD.

What the heck is going on here? I'd feel more comfortably applying a method if I knew how this mess came about to begin with.

Ultimately I'm trying to solve a question like "Who was more dominant in his era, Ching Johnson or Harry Howell?" Post-season voting records are a nice way of doing it, if possible.


Last edited by Crease: 06-04-2013 at 03:10 PM.
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06-04-2013, 03:14 PM
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I'd think the only good way is to do some sort of point values- say a first team vote is worth 3, a second team vote is worth 1? Or maybe 2/1.

This would count as something like a Norris runner up for Ching, I think.

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06-04-2013, 03:18 PM
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Seeing Seiling on multiple lists reminds me of how stupid fans at MSG can be. He was despised by the crowds like so many defnsemen before and after him.
One of the best stay at home dmen of his time, setup Hatfield's 49th and 50th goals

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06-04-2013, 03:21 PM
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It should also be noted that since the emergence of Orr the Norris became more of a offensive defensemen award. Certainly not the "Art Ross for Defensemen" that it is today, but from 1954 to 1967, it was highly correlated with of how strong you performed in your own zone.

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06-04-2013, 03:21 PM
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Not sure I completely understand the issue you're trying to deal with Crease... but if I'm understanding you correctly, here's my take:

Looking at the list of AST votes from '32-'42, I think it makes sense to combine votes for LD/RD within 1st-team and 2nd-team. In fact, it seems like that may be how they determined the winner in a few cases: look at 1933-34 defense, alternate team voting. Seibert has more votes than Shore for RD, but Shore ends up winning the vote (if you look at LD, Shore got 2 votes there and Seibert got 1, so they ended up being tied for total votes). It is unclear then what the tie breaker was, unless they then went back to the 1st team voting and looked at the votes both of those two players got there (they again tied at 10 total apiece, but Shore had 8 as RD to Seibert's 6).

Seems reasonable to me to combine votes for LD/RD within 1AST and 2AST... The two problems I could see from this process, though are:

- How you deal with players who received both 1AST and 2AST votes.
- If you think the relative strength of players at LD and RD was significantly different, how to account for this.

For the first issue, an imperfect solution could be to weight one more heavily than the other (i.e. one 1AST vote counts as a full vote and one 2AST vote counts as a half vote). EDIT: Greg beat me to this suggestion.

For the second issue, again I think it comes down to trying to determine if there is an issue there; and if so, trying to weight the individual votes accordingly. Not sure this will end up significantly impacting your analysis in the end though.

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06-04-2013, 03:24 PM
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RS, the primary issue I had was the occurance of votes for both First Team and Alt Team. I like the suggestion you and Greg made about weighting them. I'll see if I can get through all the ballots later tonight.

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06-04-2013, 03:29 PM
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I appreciate the effort but there's no contest here. Leetch's career is double the length of Park's. 16 seasons as one of the top defensemen in the league. Leetch hit the ground running winning the Calder. He has two Norris Trophies. And he won the Conn Smythe with an incredible Stanley Cup run (which alone might tip the scales in his favor).

People should save their Park arguments for the debate on whether Park deserves to be ahead of Howell. After all, Howell actually beat out Orr for a Norris.
Did you see Park play?

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06-04-2013, 03:35 PM
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One of the best stay at home dmen of his time, setup Hatfield's 49th and 50th goals
Personally I preferred his partner Nielson. Bigger and more physical. Not as slick--but more of a meat and potatoes guy. Seiling always left me a bit cold. Another comparable to Seiling--Paul Martin.

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06-04-2013, 03:41 PM
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Personally I preferred his partner Nielson. Bigger and more physical. Not as slick--but more of a meat and potatoes guy. Seiling always left me a bit cold. Another comparable to Seiling--Paul Martin.
Great pair together, they played together for many years, I thought Rod was a little better

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06-04-2013, 03:45 PM
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Top 6 of those I've seen play as Rangers excluding current Rangers:

1. Brian Leetch
2. Brad Park
3. Barry Beck
4. Sergei Zubov
5. Ron Greschner
6. Reijo Ruotsolainen

Apologies to James Patrick, Kevin Lowe, Jeff Beukeboom, Jim Neilson, Dave Maloney.

Anyway my top 6 is a very offensive bunch. Defensively Zubov and Ruotsolainen would be the weakest links. Both of those guys were extremely gifted as far as offensive ability. I'm afraid there wouldn't be enough pwp time to go around for all those guys. Park, Beck and Greschner would provide most of the grit. Any of Staal, McDonagh or Girardi would improve the defensive ability of that unit.

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