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NHL Award and All-star Voting

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Old
03-21-2013, 09:16 AM
  #626
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Can someone explain to me why Datsyuk didn't get a 2nd Team All-Star in 2007-2008? He outscored Thornton (albeit by one point) and the same voters overwhelmingly voted him for the Selke. Why did 23 voters think Thornton was the best center in the league that year?



Selke voting results are on page 8 of this thread.
I don't completely remember what went on then, but it probably had a lot to do with the help they got from their teammates.

Top scoring Red Wings:

1. Datsyuk 97
2. Zetterberg 92
3. Lidstrom 70
4. Rafalski 55
5. Cleary/Hudler 42
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/DET/2008.html

Top Scoring Sharks

1. Thornton 96
2. Michalek 55
3. Marleau 48
4. Pavelski 40
5. Cheechoo 37
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/SJS/2008.html

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03-23-2013, 01:02 AM
  #627
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Anone have the complete 2011/12 season voting results?

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03-23-2013, 01:40 AM
  #628
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Anone have the complete 2011/12 season voting results?
Posts 589 and 591.

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05-20-2013, 07:21 AM
  #629
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Edit to post 101.

Added 20 more voting points to the 1st half voting for the Hart in 1953-54.

Also completed the 1st half/2nd half vote split for the 1953-54 Norris voting.

Added 25 points to complete voting for the 1954-55 Norris, although without a 1st/2nd half split.

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05-30-2013, 11:55 PM
  #630
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Why is'nt the first post updated with all the numbers? It's awfully hard to find specific years here.

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05-31-2013, 07:01 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Why is'nt the first post updated with all the numbers? It's awfully hard to find specific years here.
It used to be, but once they brought in a post size limit, it was impossible to edit for errors or add new info.

That's why it is now split up over posts 101-106, top of page five if on 25 posts a page view, as it says in the first post.

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06-03-2013, 09:41 AM
  #632
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A little background for those not familiar with the CP All-Star voting. Ballots went out in February and were published in various newspapers in March and the final results were released in mid to late March.

Polls Are Opened By The C.P. For All-Star Election, Feb. 17, 1939

So a close scoring race in February might show in the voting, but if a player starts to run away with it in March it will have no effect. You can see this in the 1937-38 voting where Drillon pulled away from Dillon after the voting was already done.

Two Assists Keep Drillon Ahead Of Dillon And Apps In National League Score

I found a paper that published the voting totals for both the 1st and 2nd teams for 1938-39, so I wont bother adding up the individual ballots at this time, but as noted there are some votes missing, and there's an extra 2nd team LW vote. It isn't unusual for some ballots not to include a 2nd team coach selection, or a 1st for that matter, so there may not be any votes missing there.

ALL-STAR TEAMS: 34 voters, 1st and 2nd (3-1) format
GOALTENDER: FIRST TEAM: Frank Brimsek, Bos 15; Earl Robertson, NYA 7; Tiny Thompson, Bos-Det 7; Dave Kerr, NYR 5
SECOND TEAM: Dave Kerr, NYR 10; Frank Brimsek, Bos 9; Earl Robertson, NYA 6; Tiny Thompson, Bos-Det 5; Turk Broda, Tor 4
DEFENSE: FIRST TEAM: RIGHT D: Eddie Shore, Bos 26; Dit Clapper, Bos 3; Art Coulter, NYR 2; Walt Buswell, Mtl 1; Earl Seibert, Chi 1; Jack Crawford, Bos 1
LEFT D: Dit Clapper, Bos 7; Art Coulter, NYR 6; Eddie Shore, Bos 4; Earl Seibert, Chi 3; Babe Siebert, Mtl 2; Ott Heller, NYR 2; Muzz Patrick, NYR 1; Jack Portland, Bos 1; Ebbie Goodfellow, Det 1; Red Horner, Tor 1; Babe Pratt, NYR 1 (29)
ALTERNATE TEAM: RIGHT D: Art Coulter, NYR 12; Earl Seibert, Chi 11; Eddie Shore, Bos 2; Walt Buswell, Mtl 2; Jack Portland, Bos 2 (29)
LEFT D: Dit Clapper, Bos 6; Jack Portland, Bos 6; Babe Siebert, Mtl 3; Ralph Bowman, Det 3; Earl Seibert, Chi 3; Stewart Evans, Mtl 2; Jack Crawford, Bos 2; Ebbie Goodfellow, Det 2; Red Horner, Tor 2; Art Coulter, NYR 2; Ott Heller, NYR 1; Walt Buswell, Mtl 1; Art Wiebe, Chi 1
CENTER: FIRST TEAM: Syl Apps, Tor 28; Milt Schmidt, Bos 3; Neil Colville, NYR 2; Marty Barry, Det 1
SECOND TEAM: Neil Colville, NYR 14; Milt Schmidt, Bos 7; Syl Apps, Tor 4; Marty Barry, Det 4; Clint Smith, NYR 2; Phil Watson, NYR 1; Johnny Gottselig, Chi 1; Bill Cowley, Bos 1
RIGHT WING: FIRST TEAM: Gordie Drillon, Tor 27; Bobby Bauer, Bos 2; Alex Shibicky, NYR 1; Mush March, Chi 1; Toe Blake, Mtl 1; Mac Colville, NYR 1; Lorne Carr, NYA 1
SECOND TEAM: Bobby Bauer, Bos 9; Alex Shibicky, NYR 6; Gordie Drillon, Tor 3; Cecil Dillon, NYR 2; Bryan Hextall, NYR 2; Johnny Gagnon, Mtl 2; Sweeney Schriner, NYA 2; Woody Dumart, Bos 2; Nels Stewart, NYA 1; Phil Watson, NYR 1; Lorne Carr, NYA 1; Neil Colville, NYR 1 (32)
LEFT WING: FIRST TEAM: Toe Blake, Mtl 27; Johnny Gottselig, Chi 5; Sweeney Schriner, NYA 1; Woody Dumart, Bos 1
SECOND TEAM: Johnny Gottselig, Chi 8; Sweeney Schriner, NYA 8; Alex Shibicky, NYR 6; Tom Anderson, NYA 4; Woody Dumart, Bos 4; Toe Blake, Mtl 3; Charlie Sands, Bos 1; Mac Colville, NYR 1 (35)
COACH: FIRST TEAM: Red Dutton, NYA 15; Art Ross, Bos 14; Lester Patrick, NYR 5
SECOND TEAM: Art Ross, Bos 14; Lester Patrick, NYR 12; Red Dutton, NYA 4 (30)
The missing votes:

1st team LD: Jack Crawford, Bos 5
2nd team RD: Dit Clapper, Bos 4; Babe Pratt, NYR 1
2nd team RW: Tom Anderson, NYA 2
Extra vote for 2nd team LW was Mac Colville, NYR 1
There were 4 ballots with no 2nd team coach named.

One ballot had Bauer and Dumart switched at wing positions, and this was corrected for the final totals released by the NHL.

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06-04-2013, 02:55 PM
  #633
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I have a question about how to treat pre-Norris voting. This is 1933-34, from post #101 in this thread.

Quote:
DEFENSE: FIRST TEAM: RIGHT D: King Clancy, Tor 17; Eddie Shore, Bos 8; Earl Seibert, NYR 6; Lionel Conacher, Chi 3; Hap Day, Tor 1;
LEFT D: Lionel Conacher, Chi 17; Ching Johnson, NYR 7; King Clancy, Tor 4; Earl Seibert, NYR 4; Eddie Shore, Bos 2; Hap Day, Tor 1
ALTERNATE TEAM: RIGHT D: Earl Seibert, NYR 7; Eddie Shore, Bos 6; King Clancy, Tor 6; Ching Johnson, NYR 5; Lionel Conacher, Chi 3; Red Dutton, NYA 2; Red Horner, Tor 2; Sylvio Mantha, Mtl 2; Al Shields, Ott 1; Ebbie Goodfellow, Det 1
LEFT D: Ching Johnson, NYR 15; Lionel Conacher, Chi 7; Eddie Shore, Bos 2; Hap Day, Tor 2; Red Horner, Tor 2; King Clancy, Tor 2; Red Dutton, NYA 1; Earl Seibert, NYR 1; Ebbie Goodfellow, Det 1; Sylvio Mantha, Mtl 1; Gerry Carson, Mtl 1
Shore gets 8 First Team RD votes, 2 First Team LD votes (10)
Seibert gets 6 First Team RD votes, 4 First Team LD votes (10)

Shore gets 6 Alt Team RD votes, 2 Alt Team LD votes (8)
Seibert gets 7 Alt Team RD votes, 1 Alt Team LD votes (8)

In years like 1933, where the ballot separated LD from RD, does anyone have a suggestion on how to reconcile the results into something that can be compared to Norris finishes? The NYR subforum is in the preliminary discussion phase of the Top 10 Franchise Defensemen project, and I'm having trouble with these ballots. Any suggestions are welcome.


Last edited by Crease: 06-04-2013 at 03:10 PM.
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06-04-2013, 03:08 PM
  #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I have a question about how to treat pre-Norris voting. This is 1933-34, from post #101 in this thread.



Shore gets 8 First Team RD votes, 2 First Team LD votes (10)
Seibert gets 6 First Team RD votes, 4 First Team LD votes (10)

Shore gets 6 Alt Team RD votes, 2 Alt Team LD votes (8)
Seibert gets 7 Alt Team RD votes, 1 Alt Team LD votes (8)

In years like 1933, where the ballot separated LD from RD, does anyone have a suggestion on how to reconcile the results into something that can be compared to Norris finishes? The NYR subforum is in the preliminary discussion phase of the Top 10 Franchise Defensemen project, and I'm having trouble with these ballots. Any suggestions are welcome.
As far as I know, there was no official system of point totals. But here is a system I came up with that seems to work pretty well:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1115501

Here's a thread where I compiled early All Star voting, partly using this method:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1414111

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06-04-2013, 03:11 PM
  #635
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Yep, Bring Back Scuderi just sent me a PM about your thread. Very nicely done. Saves me a lot of legwork.

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06-04-2013, 05:09 PM
  #636
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Yep, Bring Back Scuderi just sent me a PM about your thread. Very nicely done. Saves me a lot of legwork.
In case you haven't seen it, make sure to check out post 582 in this thread - Ivan "Ching" Johnson was voted a 1st Team All Star by the NHL GMs in 1927-28, in one of the yearly unofficial GM-voted All-Star teams that came out in the late 20s. That gives him three 1st Teams, all with the Rangers. There is more on this (and him) in the HOH Top defensemen project.

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06-04-2013, 05:10 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
The missing votes:

1st team LD: Jack Crawford, Bos 5
2nd team RD: Dit Clapper, Bos 4; Babe Pratt, NYR 1
2nd team RW: Tom Anderson, NYA 2
Extra vote for 2nd team LW was Mac Colville, NYR 1
There were 4 ballots with no 2nd team coach named.

One ballot had Bauer and Dumart switched at wing positions, and this was corrected for the final totals released by the NHL.
Has this been added to posts 101-105 for 38-39? If so, I'll adjust my threads on the early AS vote counts.

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06-14-2013, 08:16 PM
  #638
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06-14-2013, 10:49 PM
  #639
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Crosby at 15th for Selke?

I think that's goes to show he's actually quite effective defensively.

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06-14-2013, 11:03 PM
  #640
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Insanely close race for the Selke.

I agree with Toews winning it but these records always makes me wonder if they actually have any meaning at all after 10-or so places.

I mean Crosby did place higher than Koivu and I am not sure if I agree with it. Or that Nicklas Backstrom and Henrik Sedin are tied in points. There are probably years when even being the 10th has little to no credibility.

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06-15-2013, 12:48 AM
  #641
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
Crosby at 15th for Selke?

I think that's goes to show he's actually quite effective defensively.
Really?

Look at the results. I think it goes to show nothing at that point.

The top 3 vote getters averaged 160 votes a piece. Crosby finished 15th by garnering a whopping 5 votes.

Additionally, both of Crosby's regular linemates garnered more votes than him.

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06-15-2013, 01:54 AM
  #642
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Really?

Look at the results. I think it goes to show nothing at that point.

The top 3 vote getters averaged 160 votes a piece. Crosby finished 15th by garnering a whopping 5 votes.

Additionally, both of Crosby's regular linemates garnered more votes than him.
Well we know Sid is a decent defensive center already. his # of votes with games missed is really quite impressive.

It's hard to argue with the top 6 vote getters though.

The weirdest thing about the Selke is that 10 different players got at least 1 vote for 1st place and that 24 players got at least one vote as a top 5 Selke guy.

Does any other trophy have so much divergence and disparity in the overall trophy voting?

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06-15-2013, 02:16 AM
  #643
TAnnala
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well we know Sid is a decent defensive center already. his # of votes with games missed is really quite impressive.

It's hard to argue with the top 6 vote getters though.

The weirdest thing about the Selke is that 10 different players got at least 1 vote for 1st place and that 24 players got at least one vote as a top 5 Selke guy.

Does any other trophy have so much divergence and disparity in the overall trophy voting?
I am not bashing Crosby, he is more than capable to handle the defensive side of the game. But in the idea of the trophy, "The Frank J. Selke Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game." I would feel pretty comfortable to put Backstrom or Koivu (probably both of them) ahead of him.

But I am not arguing Crosby's competent of playing defensive hockey, I just think the voting record after 10-or-so should not be used as a "proof" of some players defensive abilities.

Selke probably has the most disparity of all trophies in voting. But then again, defensive play of forward is probably hardest aspect of the game to evaluate.

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06-15-2013, 03:58 AM
  #644
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2012-2013 Frank J Selke Trophy Voting

#PlayerTeamPts.1st2nd3rd4th5th
1Toews JonathanCHI1260755120165
2Bergeron PatriceBOS1250784424126
3Datsyuk PavelDET737837583115
4Kopitar AnzeLA2664719257
5Backes DavidSTL240310121729
6McClement JayTOR1424271314
7Dupuis PascalPIT11143567
8Callahan RyanNYR101136816
9Stepan DerekNYR98125147
10Hossa MarianCHI78143413
11Nielsen FransNYI4604134
12Gordon BoydPHO3202127
13Kunitz ChrisPIT2601311
14Zetterberg HenrikDET2301301
15Crosby SidneyPIT2101211
16Staal EricCAR1900128
17Koivu MikkoMIN1701112
18Getzlaf RyanANA1600132
19Couture LoganSJ1400116
20Ladd AndrewWPG1301013
21Duchene MattCOL1300210
22Burrows AlexVAN900023
23Backstrom NicklasWAS801001
24Sedin HenrikVAN800022
25Frolik MichaelCHI701000
 Henrique AdamNJ701000
 Kane PatrickCHI701000
 Tavares JohnNYI701000
29Staal JordanCAR700102
30Kruger MarcusCHI600101
31Little BryanWPG600020
 Pominville JasonMIN600020
33O'Reilly RyanCOL500100
 Prust BrandonMTL500100
35Koivu SakuANA400011
 Talbot MaximePHI400011
 Tlusty JiriCAR400011
38Fedotenko RuslanPHI300010
 Kadri NazemTOR300010
 Kovalchuk IlyaNJ300010
 Richards MikeLA300010
 Seguin TylerBOS300010
43Bozak TylerTOR200002
 Marchand BradBOS200002
45Fehr EricWAS100001
 Johansen RyanCLB100001
 Ott SteveBUF100001
 Paille DanielBOS100001
 Parise ZachMIN100001
 Pavelski JoeSJ100001
 Stoll JarretLA100001
 Thompson NateTB100001
 Thornton JoeSJ100001


2012-2013 Jack Adams Award Voting

#CoachTeamPts.1st2nd3rd
1MacLean PaulOTT20628199
2Quenneville JoelCHI160221311
3Boudreau BruceANA8861513
4Therrien MichelMTL7810610
5Capuano JackNYI47557
6Bylsma DanPIT40448
7Carlyle RandyTOR403510
8Oates AdamWAS40286
9Richards ToddCLB37357
10Babcock MikeDET7021
11McLellan ToddSJ3010
12Sutter DarrylLA1001


2012-2013 NHL General Manager of the Year Award Voting

#GMTeamPts.1st2nd3rd
1Shero RayPIT941466
2Murray BobANA881196
3Bergevin MarcMTL757124
4Bowman StanCHI36363
5Murray BryanOTT23227
6Snow GarthNYI8015
7Nonis DaveTOR6020
8Holland KenDET5100
 Poile DavidNSH5100
10McPhee GeorgeWAS4011
11Howson ScottCLB2002
12Lombardi DeanLA1001
 Maloney DonPHO1001
 Sather GlenNYR1001
 Sherman GregCOL1001
 Wilson DougSJ1001


2012-2013 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy Voting

#PlayerTeamPts.1st2nd3rd4th5th
1St. Louis MartinTB8244729211210
2Kane PatrickCHI7854428201310
3Moulson MattNYI7503528271718
4Datsyuk PavelDET5361326233116
5Couture LoganSJ354819151521
6Letang KrisPIT162261398
7Stepan DerekNYR9815577
8Pominville JasonMIN74027413
9Eriksson LouiDAL7232246
10Callahan RyanNYR6250033
11Sutter BrandonPIT5620451
12Bergeron PatriceBOS5413241
13Selanne TeemuANA5223201
14Kopitar AnzeLA5112245
15Read MattPHI4611335
16Tavares JohnNYI4512225
17Scuderi RobLA3012101
18Kessel PhilTOR2900342
19Carle MattTB2711031
20Campbell BrianFLA2600325
21Little BryanWPG2502032
22Alfredsson DanielOTT2412000
23Parise ZachMIN2410123
24Sedin HenrikVAN2310122
25Franson CodyTOR2302111
26Duchene MattCOL2300322
27Backstrom NicklasWAS2210121
28Zetterberg HenrikDET2200226
29Miller DrewDET2111011
30Pietrangelo AlexSTL2102021
31Whitney RayDAL2002101
32Cogliano AndrewANA1901121
33Crosby SidneyPIT1802011
34Bozak TylerTOR1801201
35Cullen MattMIN1610101
36Hejduk MilanCOL1510100
37Toews JonathanCHI1501110
38Ladd AndrewWPG1500212
39Iginla JaromePIT1310010
 Timonen KimmoPHI1310010
41Gionta BrianMTL1110001
42Lundqvist HenrikNYR1100120
43Doan ShanePHO1010000
44Markov AndreiMTL901002
45Eberle JordanEDM900111
46Dupuis PascalPIT701000
 Koivu SakuANA701000
 Zajac TravisNJ701000
49Backes DavidSTL600101
50Pavelski JoeSJ600020
 Pyatt TaylorNYR600020
52Wellwood KyleWPG600013
53Giroux ClaudePHI500100
 Jagr JaromirBOS500100
 Nielsen FransNYI500100
56Emmerton CoryDET300010
 Enstrom TobiasWPG300010
 Fisher MikeNSH300010
 Gonchar SergeiOTT300010
 Klein KevinNSH300010
61Stamkos StevenTB200002
62Bouwmeester JaySTL100001
 Neal JamesPIT100001
 Staal EricCAR100001
 Stempniak LeeCGY100001

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06-15-2013, 05:49 AM
  #645
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I am not bashing Crosby, he is more than capable to handle the defensive side of the game. But in the idea of the trophy, "The Frank J. Selke Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game." I would feel pretty comfortable to put Backstrom or Koivu (probably both of them) ahead of him.

But I am not arguing Crosby's competent of playing defensive hockey, I just think the voting record after 10-or-so should not be used as a "proof" of some players defensive abilities.

Selke probably has the most disparity of all trophies in voting. But then again, defensive play of forward is probably hardest aspect of the game to evaluate.
Defensive play of a defenseman is evidently difficult to evaluate as well, considering the likes of PK Subban came in as a Norris finalist over Zdeno Chara or Duncan Keith.

I think the awards voting has it's value historically from the eras where media members actually watched games, saw every team, and had a feel for many players in the league. In a 30-team league, those days are a thing of the past.

There's somebody out there that thinks Patrick Kane was the 2nd-best defensive player in the NHL this year. Somebody else thinks Nazem Kadri or Tyler Seguin were 4th-best. Are these people really qualified to say who was better between Toews and Bergeron? Not in my books.

Marc Spector, who writes for the National Post and hosts a radio show in Edmonton, stated "I was surprised I ended up voting for Niemi for Vezina, but my research showed how good of a season he had". Let me get this straight, you make a living watching and reporting on hockey, yet had to conduct research (aka, looked up his save %) to decide who should win the Vezina? Most media members are probably less reliable in these matters than an astute fan with access to Center Ice is.

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06-15-2013, 08:53 AM
  #646
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Defensive play of a defenseman is evidently difficult to evaluate as well, considering the likes of PK Subban came in as a Norris finalist over Zdeno Chara or Duncan Keith.

I think the awards voting has it's value historically from the eras where media members actually watched games, saw every team, and had a feel for many players in the league. In a 30-team league, those days are a thing of the past.

There's somebody out there that thinks Patrick Kane was the 2nd-best defensive player in the NHL this year. Somebody else thinks Nazem Kadri or Tyler Seguin were 4th-best. Are these people really qualified to say who was better between Toews and Bergeron? Not in my books.

Marc Spector, who writes for the National Post and hosts a radio show in Edmonton, stated "I was surprised I ended up voting for Niemi for Vezina, but my research showed how good of a season he had". Let me get this straight, you make a living watching and reporting on hockey, yet had to conduct research (aka, looked up his save %) to decide who should win the Vezina? Most media members are probably less reliable in these matters than an astute fan with access to Center Ice is.
Agreed.

Its why many here question awards from the 06 era. Looking strictly at the numbers doesn't tell the whole story. Writers from that era had a much easier time comparing players.

Today, if you're covering a game on a Saturday night, you're missing maybe 10-12 games which you may only see highlights of. Its fair to say that no one who voted saw Bergeron and Toews enough to know which one was better defensively this year.

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06-15-2013, 08:56 AM
  #647
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Agreed.

Its why many here question awards from the 06 era. Looking strictly at the numbers doesn't tell the whole story. Writers from that era had a much easier time comparing players.

Today, if you're covering a game on a Saturday night, you're missing maybe 10-12 games which you may only see highlights of. Its fair to say that no one who voted saw Bergeron and Toews enough to know which one was better defensively this year.
Especially this year, with no cross-conference games.

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06-15-2013, 09:39 AM
  #648
DisgruntledGoat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Defensive play of a defenseman is evidently difficult to evaluate as well, considering the likes of PK Subban came in as a Norris finalist over Zdeno Chara or Duncan Keith.

I think the awards voting has it's value historically from the eras where media members actually watched games, saw every team, and had a feel for many players in the league. In a 30-team league, those days are a thing of the past.
I also wonder if the media voting today is less qualified than media from the Original six era.

The beat guy for, I dunno, say, the Florida Panthers? How much about hockey does he really know? Is he a hockey fan, or is he a baseball or football writer who got the hockey beat when no one else wanted it?

You certainly have to think he's not as indoctrinated into the game as Red Fischer was back in the day.

And note: this is not meant to bash non-traditional markets. Fans in those markets are as knowledgeable as anyone else. But that's because hockey is those fans' passion and pasttime. Those fans chose hockey. Did the beat writers in non-traditional markets choose hockey? Or did they choose sports writing, and ended up with hockey? Sometimes I wonder. Especially when I see some of the award voting.

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06-15-2013, 09:48 AM
  #649
Epsilon
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On the flip side of this discussion, any peculiarities or deficiencies of individual writers (or even groups of them) is going to get drowned out significantly by the sheer volume of voters. While people will point out a few wacky individual votes (which can often simply be attributed to homerism), these tend to matter fairly little since the voting and points structure encourages regression to the mean.

One reason I dislike the GMs voting on the Vezina (as opposed to many who seem to favor this) is that with only 30 voters, a single individual has far more power (over 5 times compared to a PHWA voter) to influence the final result. With how clubby the GMs are, there's also more significant danger of groupthink and/or influencing others.

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06-15-2013, 06:30 PM
  #650
Mike Farkas
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How many times has the Vezina been won by a non-playoff goalie? Bobrovsky just won it.

I'd assume that pre-1982 it couldn't have happened because that was the goalie with the fewest goals against, so I doubt that team missed the playoffs...and GMs like wins too, so I'm trying to think of one...but I can't imagine it happening before, right or wrong?

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