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Old
10-08-2006, 12:53 PM
  #26
frozenrubber
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Messier

While not looking forward to contribute to this thread, Messier's accomplishments were simple...

As a leader, he was successful when he could lead by example...

When his skills waned w/ age, he could no longer lead by example and his impact and leadership were greatly lessened...

Aside from hockey, the man had an ego the size of Ellis Island. And yes, that was a major detriment to his teams in the later years.

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10-08-2006, 12:55 PM
  #27
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I appreciate what Messier did to us as any Ranger fan would, but I think you can definitely make the claim that Messier shouldn't have been brought back after he left for Vancouver.

That wound up being a detriment, and I think it could likely be the reason the Rangers weren't after Brian Leetch this off season. (unless of course you believe Sather when he said he tried to get him)

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10-08-2006, 01:26 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by JerseyRangers View Post
You are correct in that Messier got more ice time then his play warranted. However, if that was the only flaw on those teams we still would have survived, made the playoffs and maybe even won a round or two. The problems on d and in the net more than outweighed Mess's ice time and his use. To ignore those and blame those teams failings on Mess is foolish.
As I said. The truth lies between blind Messier support and angry Messier bashing.

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10-08-2006, 01:42 PM
  #29
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Great, another month, another anti-Messier. Can we just automatically delete these from now on. Not because it is anti-Messier, but because we do this all the time. Other useless, rehashed threads get deleted, this one should too.

This team missed the playoffs until we traded for Marcel Hossa, he is the reason were are great now. Roszival is also a leading factor. Mike York did nothing but hurt this team when he was here because we didn't make the playoffs.

Any leadership abilities these kids pickup will be directly linked to having Messier around as a mentor. Not the other way around. We had bad teams, with bad coaches and bad systems. We had no direction, no role players, no hard work and too many injuries. Messier did not create the roster, just like Jagr didn't create the current one. If the coaches couldn't stand up to Messier and play him less (which I don't think is what happened) then they shouldn't have been coaches in the first place.

Did you learn to love being miserable over those 8 years so much that you have to constantly pick at your scabs to be happy?

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10-08-2006, 02:11 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post

This team missed the playoffs until we traded for Marcel Hossa, he is the reason were are great now.
Finally someone sees the light!

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10-08-2006, 02:44 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
unfortunately few players on those team were stepping it up and playing it well. This team's goaltending was horrific, mostly. It's defensemen were below average. There was no forward who can consistently score. Messier also payed on lines with guys like Lundmark, Tripp, Toms, Ulmer and others...you don't think this team would've been successful with Mess centering Ward and Hossa last season, while Lundvist stood on his head and Jagr playing well?
Absolutely. Who did we have during that era that deserved more ice time then Mess. Keven Stevens?? John Tripp? Maybe we should have put the likes of Christian Dube out there and see what happens. Bottom line is that there was a plethora of horrible moves and bad players on those teams and to blame Mess for that mess is plain stupid.

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10-08-2006, 02:50 PM
  #32
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1. Messier HAS been gone.
2. "we" are winning? I hate when people use WE when they are talking about their team, you arent
on the team, its the New York Rangers, you are just a fan. Devils fans do that alot i cant stand
it. I may be the only one that gets annoyed by that though, so go ahead and criticize.
3. what exactly have they "won"? yeah they made the playoffs last year but they got swept. Its too
early.
4. Lets think about the teamnow, why bring mess into it?

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10-08-2006, 02:56 PM
  #33
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It's a fascinating spectacle to read some expert/fans go to extreme lengths to smash bonafide icons.

Especially perverse when the individual in question was one of their own. Ingratitude personafied.

One supposes that somewhere in Pittsburgh, there is a genius lamenting that Mario returned to the ice in recent years....In Detroit, someone likely blames Steve Yzerman for the Wings inability to capture playoff success since 2002....and so on.


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10-08-2006, 04:05 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
I hate when people use WE when they are talking about their team, you aren't
on the team, its the New York Rangers, you are just a fan. Devils fans do that alot i cant stand
it. I may be the only one that gets annoyed by that though, so go ahead and criticize.
You're not the only one; this is one of my biggest sports pet peeves.

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10-08-2006, 04:17 PM
  #35
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This is more or less what Brodeur was saying.....Messier took away ice time from youngsters who deserved to be there. Anyways this is a big can of worms, Im just glad a Devils fan didn't start this thread.

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10-08-2006, 04:43 PM
  #36
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If we go back...

and remember those Messier years, we may realize there weren't many decent young players who deserved ice time. Organizationally, it was a bad period for the Rangers and a time in which they were re-tooling their farm system.

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10-08-2006, 04:44 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by EventHorizon View Post
You're not the only one; this is one of my biggest sports pet peeves.
OK i feel better now..

by the way event horizon is the scariest ****ing movie EVER. Claire.....Claire!?

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10-08-2006, 04:53 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
OK i feel better now..

by the way event horizon is the scariest ****ing movie EVER. Claire.....Claire!?
I've actually never seen that movie. But the responses I get from people assuming it is a reference to the movie couldn't be more varied. Some of them have your response, while others say it's just awful, one of the worst movies they have ever seen. There is just no middle ground, people either absolutely love it, or absolutely loathe it. I don't know who to believe.

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10-08-2006, 06:44 PM
  #39
ish
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Originally Posted by JerseyRangers View Post
Its obvious that tools like Yizee and Rangerboy have no concept. The problem with the Rangers teams from 2000-2004 started in net. Once Richter started with his injury problems he was never consistently dominant in net. How many games did we lose in that era because our goalie got outplayed? How many games did we lose last season because King Henrik got outplayed? Big difference. Now lets go on to the d. We had the likes of Malcontent, Krappa, Urinov, Driver and the Sucky Hatcher manning our blue line during that era. Guess what, even at his worst last year Port-a-Poti was better than those guys.

Now, how did Messier being here during that era have any impact on those factors?? I will be waiting patiently for an answer to that question. Lets see how you try to spin this!
We were so bad for so long because of poor goaltending and shabby defensemen? That's it? The goaltending was only half bad. Richter had some decent years in there. Dunhams first year with us he was 12th in the league in save percentage (better than Brodeur, Theodore, Joseph, and Khabibulin that year) and that didn't get us in the playoffs. Yup, we had plenty of bad defensemen too.

But I'm gonna go with godawful chemistry and players that couldn't care less about earning their money. The effort the Rangers showed on a given night from 1999-2004 was a joke. They played hard a couple times a month at the most. When the team doesn't show up on a consistent basis I think some of the blame needs to go to the captain. How many teams that are that bad for that long have a captain in place for 4 straight years? Unheard of.

Who did Messier steal ice time from? No, we didn't have a lot of young players those years but his first year back he pushed Mike York down to third line center after he just had a fine rookie year. What did he do with that ice? He scored a lot of early season points, tailed off and finished tied for 874th in the league in plus-minus, ahead of only 8 players. (I'm not joking with that number, he really was tied for 874th). Replacing a young guy who plays his tail off with one of the laziest players in the league. Brilliant. Nice leadership Mess. I'm sure York has a bushell of stories for his grandkids about Mess from 2000-01.

Like someone else mentioned, he hardly ever practiced. Understandable because he was so old you say? Well maybe he shouldn't have been the captain then. It might be a good idea for the captain to attend team practices. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Rod Brind'Amour managed to handle the inconvenience of going to practice last season.

Oh, and how about having tool coaches who could be bossed around by Messier? That worked out well too.

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10-08-2006, 06:49 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by EventHorizon View Post
I've actually never seen that movie. But the responses I get from people assuming it is a reference to the movie couldn't be more varied. Some of them have your response, while others say it's just awful, one of the worst movies they have ever seen. There is just no middle ground, people either absolutely love it, or absolutely loathe it. I don't know who to believe.
From a serious cinematic plot standpoint it truly sucked, as most horror movies do, but from a pure horrific experience, turn the lights off and watch it alone in a basement in the dead of the winter and it will most likely leave an impression. Its basically hell on a spaceship.

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10-08-2006, 06:53 PM
  #41
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Replacing a young guy who plays his tail off with one of the laziest players in the league. Brilliant. Nice leadership Mess. I'm sure York has a bushell of stories for his grandkids about Mess from 2000-01.
Well at least I don't have to ask if you actually watched any of those games. Convenient to forget that York was on the 1st line the next year despite Messier still being on the team.

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10-08-2006, 06:54 PM
  #42
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Messier carried the team on his back to win the Rangers their only post WWII Stanley Cup.

That is the ultimate goal of any hockey franchise, and he was beyond instrumental in bringing the cup back to NY after several generations of frustration.

He was a warrior, a leader, a champion and his jersey is rightfully up in the rafters at MSG. (Some of you may remember the seven hour long ceremony...)

He is not to blame for the franchise bringing him back, in a sentimental/desperate move, when he was past his prime. The team during that era was a debacle, with or without Mess, and had so many things wrong with it across the board, from the on-ice roster, front office, coaching staff, systems, motivation, drafting, team concept, etc. etc. etc., that MM getting 5-10 minutes more ice time than he "deserved" in any given game, or him having a big ego, had little to no effect upon the end result. SO pinning that all on him seems like taking a dump on the orgization's biggest hero of the modern era, which seems out of line to me, and is wholly speculative regardless.

Seeing a player you had loved on the severe decline is disheartening, to be sure, be we all age -- so it is hard to blame the player for the inevitable (and unenviable) truth we all face as human beings.

I feel for Green Bay Packers fans, as an example, having to watch Brett Favre in his twilight years, with his team sucking around him. His fault? No. Really sad? Yes. Is he still a warrior? Yes. Does he have a big ego? Yes. Would his team, right now, be better off without him? Most likely, no. (As they would still suck either way.)

And the reason the team is winning now (many reasons actually) has zero-minus to do with the absence of Mark Messier, and everything to do with correcting all those many issues that had submarined the team for nearly a decade.

On-ice roster -- much better balance between veterans and youth, less concern on buying "names" and more on the character of the player and his role on the team.

Front office -- whether or not some of the folks are the same, positively changed the strategy to reflect in the above mentioned roster.

Coaching -- Tom Renney is the best in a long while, simply a great coach.

Systems -- See; coaching. Running 4 lines, chipping in with two-way play to compensate for lapses in D, many positive changes in how they play the game as a unit.

Motivation -- See J. Jagr as an example. A player fairly accused of on again/off again stretches of mecurial lack of motivated play, selfishness and extreme moodiness in his career, is now proudly wearing the "C", leading the kids by example, taking the team on his back every shift, putting up career numbers. Infectuous indeed.

Drafting -- Instead of having a line-up rarely cracked by a rookie (log jammed instead with over priced vets in their final gasps of the NHL), now there are young, home grown blue chippers excelling up and down the NHL squad -- Prucha, Tutin, Lundy -- all studs. With lots more kids to be excited about on the team and within the lower ranks at every position.

Team Concept -- Perhaps the most important change is the larger paradigm shift to a team first concept, with a mix of vets, kids and role players, which exists in most winning scenarios, versus an attempt at simply creating an all-star team (see: the team make-up and payroll of the Yankees over the last five seasons, versus their run 1996-2000). It is the name on the front of the sweater that matters, not the one on the back. And this has been a huge positive change in the lockerroom culture of the Rangers, and the positive results are already in the process of being achieved. Everyone pulling together as one, winning as one.

Blaming Mark Messier for the absence of any of the above, especially post-retirement, wildly over emphasizes the impact of any one individual, when it truly "takes a village" to institute real change in attitudes, motivations and an entire team culture.

Some may recognize me as a fan of your cross-river rivals, you know, the Lil' Debbies (or whatever -- still don't get that one), so this is the farthest from homer-talk. I relish "Rangers Suck" chants at the Swamp, regardless of our opponents, and would happily, and brutally, make fun of the Blueskirts whenever possible... But, truth be told, there is a whole lot to be excited about in this Rangers team, right now, and a whole lot more to be hopeful about going into the future, with a potential franchise goalie in place (and another nipping at his heels in Al Montoya) and one of the most exciting and underrated rookies in Prucha -- being fed the puck, pretty much perfectly, by a perennial Hart contender (elite passing being perhaps Jagr's most unsung attribute, compared to his size and scoring touch...)

Ranger fans are right to enjoy this, even be overjoyed by this, but you don't have to throw Messier under the bus in order to do so. His moment was CLASSIC. It is gone. But Jagr and the new kids are creating new moments worth cheering about all on their own.

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Old
10-08-2006, 07:08 PM
  #43
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We were so bad for so long because of poor goaltending and shabby defensemen? That's it? The goaltending was only half bad. Richter had some decent years in there. Dunhams first year with us he was 12th in the league in save percentage (better than Brodeur, Theodore, Joseph, and Khabibulin that year) and that didn't get us in the playoffs. Yup, we had plenty of bad defensemen too.
No, the crappy forwards that we signed and the fact that they never bothered to come back and help out on d had an awful lot to do with it.

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But I'm gonna go with godawful chemistry and players that couldn't care less about earning their money. The effort the Rangers showed on a given night from 1999-2004 was a joke. They played hard a couple times a month at the most. When the team doesn't show up on a consistent basis I think some of the blame needs to go to the captain. How many teams that are that bad for that long have a captain in place for 4 straight years? Unheard of.
Problem was that those teams weren't that bad. Most of the time we where in the hunt for a playoff spot until the last few weeks of the season. Do you really believe that guys like Malcontent, Urianov, Kamsucky, Stevens (when he wasn't getting high) or Fleury really cared what Mess had to say?? Again the problem wasn't Mess or his leadership. It was the overpaid, undertalented mercenaries that Sather hired.


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Who did Messier steal ice time from? No, we didn't have a lot of young players those years but his first year back he pushed Mike York down to third line center after he just had a fine rookie year. What did he do with that ice? He scored a lot of early season points, tailed off and finished tied for 874th in the league in plus-minus, ahead of only 8 players. (I'm not joking with that number, he really was tied for 874th). Replacing a young guy who plays his tail off with one of the laziest players in the league. Brilliant. Nice leadership Mess. I'm sure York has a bushell of stories for his grandkids about Mess from 2000-01.
York got plenty of ice time that season. If you recall York played so much that season that by the end of it he was just hanging on. Do you really believe that York ever was a first line talent or had the endurance to play those kind of minutes? I didn't think so!

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Like someone else mentioned, he hardly ever practiced. Understandable because he was so old you say? Well maybe he shouldn't have been the captain then. It might be a good idea for the captain to attend team practices. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Rod Brind'Amour managed to handle the inconvenience of going to practice last season.

Oh, and how about having tool coaches who could be bossed around by Messier? That worked out well too.
No doubt Mess wasn't the ideal teammate at that point in his career. However, who on those wonderful teams deserved the C anymore than he did. Kamensky, Lindros, Fluery, who??? Also, maybe the coaches were being bossed around by Mess because they were clearly clueless and shouldn't have been their in the first place. Again Mess had much less to do with those teams stinking then you seem to think. The mediocare goaltending, poor defensemen and poor group of forwards had much more to do with that then anything Mess did.

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10-08-2006, 07:18 PM
  #44
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do you guys ever sit down and realize that we are winning because messier is finally gone? we are predicted to win the stanley cup by guys like Barry Melrose and Larry Brooks - and with messier here we would be nowhere again
This is really hard to stomach. A total and complete disgrace. Can't you just pick another team to root for? Seriously. I know I am embarrassed to have to share the garden with you. It would really be a lot easier if you switched to the Devils or Isles. I am sure you are among the idiots who feel that booing Arod somehow helps that situation as well. WAKE UP. If not for Mess we would still be hearing about 1940.

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10-08-2006, 07:50 PM
  #45
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do you guys ever sit down and realize that we are winning because messier is finally gone? we are predicted to win the stanley cup by guys like Barry Melrose and Larry Brooks - and with messier here we would be nowhere again
I apologize if I missed something (just getting back from vacation) but when did Mr Mullet say the Rangers would win the cup. Before I left I saw an interview and he made no mention of the NYR as usual. He said the Ducks were his favorites to win.

A for the Messier connection, total coincidence

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10-08-2006, 08:16 PM
  #46
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It's a fascinating spectacle to read some expert/fans go to extreme lengths to smash bonafide icons.

Especially perverse when the individual in question was one of their own. Ingratitude personafied.

One supposes that somewhere in Pittsburgh, there is a genius lamenting that Mario returned to the ice in recent years....In Detroit, someone likely blames Steve Yzerman for the Wings inability to capture playoff success since 2002....and so on.

We often stand on opposite sides of opinion, but despite that I've always respected you.

I wasn't going to even comment on this thread, but you just about summed up what I was thinking.

Thank you.

Seriously, THANK YOU.

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10-08-2006, 08:19 PM
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Don Mattingly retired and the Yankees started winning.


See how ridiculous that sounds.

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10-08-2006, 09:03 PM
  #48
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Well at least I don't have to ask if you actually watched any of those games. Convenient to forget that York was on the 1st line the next year despite Messier still being on the team.
What? We buried a perfectly good player for a year. So because York played on the first line the next year it was OK that Messier stole his ice time the year before?

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10-08-2006, 09:09 PM
  #49
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1.
2. "we" are winning? I hate when people use WE when they are talking about their team, you arent
on the team, its the New York Rangers, you are just a fan.
And I can't stand when people complain about it. When you grow up a fan of the team and watch 82 (sometimes plus) games a year and live and die with them, you feel you are part of the entity that is the team. "we" meaning "our side".

If you don't like it, don't say it. People who want to say "we" can say it all they want. It wont stop US from winning,

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10-08-2006, 09:32 PM
  #50
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No, the crappy forwards that we signed and the fact that they never bothered to come back and help out on d had an awful lot to do with it.

Problem was that those teams weren't that bad. Most of the time we where in the hunt for a playoff spot until the last few weeks of the season. Do you really believe that guys like Malcontent, Urianov, Kamsucky, Stevens (when he wasn't getting high) or Fleury really cared what Mess had to say?? Again the problem wasn't Mess or his leadership. It was the overpaid, undertalented mercenaries that Sather hired.


I consider Messier to one of those mercenaries. Especially his last year. We can never really know but I suspect his motivation was money. We weren't going to win anything. That's for damn sure. And of course to pass Howe in goals to stroke the ego a little more.

York got plenty of ice time that season. If you recall York played so much that season that by the end of it he was just hanging on. Do you really believe that York ever was a first line talent or had the endurance to play those kind of minutes? I didn't think so!

I just looked up York's ice time and he actually played about 2 minutes a game more than his rookie year so I'm a little off there. But where he was really affected was on the power play. He hardly got a chance on the power play. He went from 12ppg to 3ppg. More importantly, this is the guys second year in the league we're talking about. We were still finding out what he was capable of. No one knew he was a 15-20 goal 50 point player like we do now. A rookie that scored 26 goals should be given every opportunity to build on that.


No doubt Mess wasn't the ideal teammate at that point in his career. However, who on those wonderful teams deserved the C anymore than he did. Kamensky, Lindros, Fluery, who??? Also, maybe the coaches were being bossed around by Mess because they were clearly clueless and shouldn't have been their in the first place. Again Mess had much less to do with those teams stinking then you seem to think. The mediocare goaltending, poor defensemen and poor group of forwards had much more to do with that then anything Mess did.
The coaches were being bossed around by Messier because Sather knew he wanted Messier to have that power to begin with. He knew Ron Low would cower to Messier and wanted him to. Not a great plan. I don't know who should have been the captain. All I know is that Messier was a horrible captain for those four years.

How can you not address holding the captain at least partially responsible for a team that very rarely gave an honest effort? When the captain doesn't play hard how can you expect the troops to? None of those teams lacked talent. They just lacked discipline, heart, chemistry, work ethic, and good coaching. Mess could have helped out in all of these areas except the latter.

No one can take away what Messier did for us the first time he was a Ranger. He was unbelievable. I even go so far as to hold him higher than Gordie Howe. I think he should be above Howe on any alltime player list. I hold the first two thirds of his career in high regards. I just don't understand the blind loyalty. Why can he do no wrong for some people? Should Yankee fans give Derek Jeter free reign to do whatever he wants the rest of his career? Absolutely not. Just like we shouldn't have let Messier have so much power like we did.

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