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Head Coach Vacancy Pt IV — Rangers get permission to speak to Ruff

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Old
06-04-2013, 08:46 PM
  #301
Tawnos
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
It's the same way with the players. Can't talk to players on other teams until they officially become UFA. Professional sports, at least in NA, are different than many other jobs. Teams control the rights to players. You don't see that in the normal business world. People don't get drafted to work in a bank.

I work for a consulting company. That company hires me out to their clients to help them with software implementations, upgrades, etc. As part of my employment with my company, I am required to sign a no-compete clause, which means I can't go to work for any of our clients for 1 year after I leave our company.

I've gotten plenty of job offers from clients over the years and, in truth, if I wanted to take one of those jobs I could have. There's really nothing my company can do, even with that signed document, and it wouldn't be worth their effort to try.

But if the Rangers talked to Tippett without the coyotes' permission, the coyotes could appeal to the league and you can be sure the league would do something about it if they found evidence that it was true. In sports they call in tampering and the various leagues take it very seriously.
It should be pointed out that this kind of thing isn't actually illegal in terms of the laws written by governments, but rather against the CBA, in the case of the players, and against the league's bylaws, in the case of coaches and executives (someone might actually point out that both cases are league bylaw issues and tampering with players isn't in the CBA, to which I stand corrected). Although, Tippet signed an exclusive services contract with the Coyotes, so while he can "legally" talk to another team before his term is up, he isn't allowed to break the contract. That would be illegal.

The draft stuff actually has very little to do with it beyond the period of time leading up to the entry level contract. One a player is a free agent, they can talk to anyone they want to talk to whether they're RFA or UFA.


Last edited by Tawnos: 06-04-2013 at 08:51 PM.
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06-04-2013, 09:01 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Totally agree. But let's at least bring in someone with question marks on their resume, as opposed to no resume whatsoever.
Seriously.

I dont get how one can rationalize that anyone, no matter how great of a "born leader" or legend of the game or savior of a particular franchise can become a top level, professional league coach without having SOME experience at SOME level without SOME sort of an adjustment period.

The first 100+ days (not even games) of Messiers coaching experience here is going to be all brandy-new, and hes going to be learning on the job, regardless of how awesome some may HOPE he will be. I've got some real questions here if he is hired:

What kind of camp is he going to run?
What is he going to do about all of his off-ice commitments?
What assistant coaches is HE going to recommend?
How is he going to communicate to the team, through the captain? As an authoritative figure Autocratic? Democratic?
Whats his policy regarding curfews?
What kind of practices is he going to run?
What are his feelings on game day skates and optionals?
How is he going to handle off-days and rest?
What are his plans for managing goaltenders?
etc., etc., ETC., ETC., ETC.


All of this is unknown, because he's NEVER BEEN A COACH!!!

What does that mean for the Rangers and the fans? They'll all be his guinea pigs to see what its like to be an NHL coach. Its really no different then one of us running an NHL Simulation on XBOX. He may have some idea of what being a coach is like (any of us who have played can) but you dont know what it will be like and how youll react until you actually try it. Spare me the pie-in-the-sky fantasies. This isnt the time for Messier to get his feet wet at the Rangers expense.

Lets think about this for a second. Sather fires Torts and claims that there are a lot of reasons, but namely because the CUP is the ultimate goal, and that's where this team needs to be. (his words) This is a coach who already won a cup, is the winningest american born coach who just lead the team to back to back playoff appearances into the second round. So whats the answer to get to the next level? Bring in someone whos nevers coached a single professional hockey game in his life. OF COURSE! That has to be the answer! It's so clear as day! And to top it off - lets make it one of the best players who's ever played the game! One that thinks the game like .0000000001% of the rest of the world! GENIUS!

Besides, I dont know why someone who is a living legend, who has reached the top of Mt. Olympus and essentially slayed Goliath with the whole world watching on the biggest stage in sports,would want to jeopardize that reputation by taking on a challenge that is destined for failure. Its all silly to me and it will not happen. (better not happen)


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 06-04-2013 at 09:10 PM.
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Old
06-04-2013, 11:15 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Seriously.

I dont get how one can rationalize that anyone, no matter how great of a "born leader" or legend of the game or savior of a particular franchise can become a top level, professional league coach without having SOME experience at SOME level without SOME sort of an adjustment period.

The first 100+ days (not even games) of Messiers coaching experience here is going to be all brandy-new, and hes going to be learning on the job, regardless of how awesome some may HOPE he will be. I've got some real questions here if he is hired:

What kind of camp is he going to run?
What is he going to do about all of his off-ice commitments?
What assistant coaches is HE going to recommend?
How is he going to communicate to the team, through the captain? As an authoritative figure Autocratic? Democratic?
Whats his policy regarding curfews?
What kind of practices is he going to run?
What are his feelings on game day skates and optionals?
How is he going to handle off-days and rest?
What are his plans for managing goaltenders?
etc., etc., ETC., ETC., ETC.


All of this is unknown, because he's NEVER BEEN A COACH!!!

What does that mean for the Rangers and the fans? They'll all be his guinea pigs to see what its like to be an NHL coach. Its really no different then one of us running an NHL Simulation on XBOX. He may have some idea of what being a coach is like (any of us who have played can) but you dont know what it will be like and how youll react until you actually try it. Spare me the pie-in-the-sky fantasies. This isnt the time for Messier to get his feet wet at the Rangers expense.

Lets think about this for a second. Sather fires Torts and claims that there are a lot of reasons, but namely because the CUP is the ultimate goal, and that's where this team needs to be. (his words) This is a coach who already won a cup, is the winningest american born coach who just lead the team to back to back playoff appearances into the second round. So whats the answer to get to the next level? Bring in someone whos nevers coached a single professional hockey game in his life. OF COURSE! That has to be the answer! It's so clear as day! And to top it off - lets make it one of the best players who's ever played the game! One that thinks the game like .0000000001% of the rest of the world! GENIUS!

Besides, I dont know why someone who is a living legend, who has reached the top of Mt. Olympus and essentially slayed Goliath with the whole world watching on the biggest stage in sports,would want to jeopardize that reputation by taking on a challenge that is destined for failure. Its all silly to me and it will not happen. (better not happen)
Epic post is epic. Also I agree with the sentiment here 110%. Hiring Messier would be a disaster.

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Old
06-04-2013, 11:35 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Seriously.

I dont get how one can rationalize that anyone, no matter how great of a "born leader" or legend of the game or savior of a particular franchise can become a top level, professional league coach without having SOME experience at SOME level without SOME sort of an adjustment period.

The first 100+ days (not even games) of Messiers coaching experience here is going to be all brandy-new, and hes going to be learning on the job, regardless of how awesome some may HOPE he will be. I've got some real questions here if he is hired:

What kind of camp is he going to run?
What is he going to do about all of his off-ice commitments?
What assistant coaches is HE going to recommend?
How is he going to communicate to the team, through the captain? As an authoritative figure Autocratic? Democratic?
Whats his policy regarding curfews?
What kind of practices is he going to run?
What are his feelings on game day skates and optionals?
How is he going to handle off-days and rest?
What are his plans for managing goaltenders?
etc., etc., ETC., ETC., ETC.


All of this is unknown, because he's NEVER BEEN A COACH!!!

What does that mean for the Rangers and the fans? They'll all be his guinea pigs to see what its like to be an NHL coach. Its really no different then one of us running an NHL Simulation on XBOX. He may have some idea of what being a coach is like (any of us who have played can) but you dont know what it will be like and how youll react until you actually try it. Spare me the pie-in-the-sky fantasies. This isnt the time for Messier to get his feet wet at the Rangers expense.

Lets think about this for a second. Sather fires Torts and claims that there are a lot of reasons, but namely because the CUP is the ultimate goal, and that's where this team needs to be. (his words) This is a coach who already won a cup, is the winningest american born coach who just lead the team to back to back playoff appearances into the second round. So whats the answer to get to the next level? Bring in someone whos nevers coached a single professional hockey game in his life. OF COURSE! That has to be the answer! It's so clear as day! And to top it off - lets make it one of the best players who's ever played the game! One that thinks the game like .0000000001% of the rest of the world! GENIUS!

Besides, I dont know why someone who is a living legend, who has reached the top of Mt. Olympus and essentially slayed Goliath with the whole world watching on the biggest stage in sports,would want to jeopardize that reputation by taking on a challenge that is destined for failure. Its all silly to me and it will not happen. (better not happen)
Agree. I think most do.

Its Sather, anything can happen. But, I seriously doubt they'd actually hire Messier for the position. I feel its all publicity.
In the end its going to be a real coach.

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Old
06-05-2013, 12:08 AM
  #305
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The only thing I get from this conversation is that Torts may not have been the right coach at this time, but neither are these guys. LOL.

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Old
06-05-2013, 03:15 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
I disagree. I don't think Bylsma is the main reason Pitssburgh us losing...but I think he'shad his fair share of highly questionable decisions.

Like, Iginla on the LW, and on the Malkin/Neal line. He fit in wonderfully with Crosby on the RW. Also, no Iginla on the first PP unit. They lack a right handed one-timer. Letang is awesome, but he's not really know for his one-timer. Iginla is.

Also, I think Fleury is starting tomorrow. That's a mistake right there.
What options does he have? They have two goalies with no confidence.

Name me one coach who doesnt make questionable decisions.

Pittsburgh isnt losing because of Bylsma. The idea that they would be better off right now with another coach yet the same two goalies is beyond stupid.

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06-05-2013, 04:05 AM
  #307
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Eddie Olczyk coached in the NHL with little or no experience

Quote:
“He’s going to need to have people around him that have a lot of experience,” said Olczyk, now an NBC in-game analyst in the midst of calling the Penguins-Bruins Eastern Conference finals.

“I don’t care how many Cups you’ve won or how many games you’ve played or where you come from, you need to have that experience alongside you and that trust factor.”

Olczyk made it clear the situation he dealt with in Pittsburgh was very different than the one Messier would be dealing with here in New York. Olczyk had a team needing a total rebuild, while he thinks the Rangers are just one or two pieces away from regaining elite status.

“There are just so many positives about the opportunity [with the Rangers] that whoever does get the job is going into a spot where, boy oh boy, a couple of tweaks here or there in-game, then adding a player, they become one of the favorites,” Olczyk said. “I don’t think there’s any doubt about that.”

Yet if Messier does get the job, it won’t be the easiest transition. A lot has been made recently about how great players don’t make great coaches, and although that’s something Olczyk doesn’t completely buy, he thinks there is no way to know what kind of coach someone is going to be until he is in that position.

“You realize as a player how much the coaches go through, but until you’re actually in the mix, you really have no idea as a player,” Olczyk said. “Your focus is in so many more directions. That aspect of it is very draining.”
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...ontent=Rangers

In a rebuilding situation,you can make mistakes as a young coach.

This guy wants Messier because he coached his kid in a pee wee tournament

Quote:
We waited as our kids suited up in silence, then watched the Zamboni make its last turns. I stood next to Messier. He nodded. Me and the captain, just two guys about to get it on. He was holding something. Blue note cards. Each had the name of a player, comments. There were also what appeared to be plays. Actual plays! When a locker-room door swung open, I could see a wipe board covered with lines, each representing a man descending on us.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...newyork_sports

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06-05-2013, 06:53 AM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Eddie Olczyk coached in the NHL with little or no experience



http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...ontent=Rangers

In a rebuilding situation,you can make mistakes as a young coach.

This guy wants Messier because he coached his kid in a pee wee tournament



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...newyork_sports
I want to take away my most knowledgable vote for you now I came here just to post that wsj article. Btw Mr. "most knowledgable" (HA!) he coached AGAINST the guy's son! (I'm giving you tongue in cheek sour grapes and I'm REALLY hoping I'm wrong about the fact that he coached against the kid b/c it'd make me look like a fool and add another layer of lol's to it)

Anyway I read it as kind of a tongue in cheek thing I don't think he's seriously campaigning for Mess based on this one pee wee experience. At least I really hope for his sake otherwise with logic like this he'll be out of a job soon.

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06-05-2013, 08:15 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Seriously.

I dont get how one can rationalize that anyone, no matter how great of a "born leader" or legend of the game or savior of a particular franchise can become a top level, professional league coach without having SOME experience at SOME level without SOME sort of an adjustment period.

The first 100+ days (not even games) of Messiers coaching experience here is going to be all brandy-new, and hes going to be learning on the job, regardless of how awesome some may HOPE he will be. I've got some real questions here if he is hired:

What kind of camp is he going to run?
What is he going to do about all of his off-ice commitments?
What assistant coaches is HE going to recommend?
How is he going to communicate to the team, through the captain? As an authoritative figure Autocratic? Democratic?
Whats his policy regarding curfews?
What kind of practices is he going to run?
What are his feelings on game day skates and optionals?
How is he going to handle off-days and rest?
What are his plans for managing goaltenders?
etc., etc., ETC., ETC., ETC.


All of this is unknown, because he's NEVER BEEN A COACH!!!

What does that mean for the Rangers and the fans? They'll all be his guinea pigs to see what its like to be an NHL coach. Its really no different then one of us running an NHL Simulation on XBOX. He may have some idea of what being a coach is like (any of us who have played can) but you dont know what it will be like and how youll react until you actually try it. Spare me the pie-in-the-sky fantasies. This isnt the time for Messier to get his feet wet at the Rangers expense.

Lets think about this for a second. Sather fires Torts and claims that there are a lot of reasons, but namely because the CUP is the ultimate goal, and that's where this team needs to be. (his words) This is a coach who already won a cup, is the winningest american born coach who just lead the team to back to back playoff appearances into the second round. So whats the answer to get to the next level? Bring in someone whos nevers coached a single professional hockey game in his life. OF COURSE! That has to be the answer! It's so clear as day! And to top it off - lets make it one of the best players who's ever played the game! One that thinks the game like .0000000001% of the rest of the world! GENIUS!

Besides, I dont know why someone who is a living legend, who has reached the top of Mt. Olympus and essentially slayed Goliath with the whole world watching on the biggest stage in sports,would want to jeopardize that reputation by taking on a challenge that is destined for failure. Its all silly to me and it will not happen. (better not happen)


Very well said

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Old
06-05-2013, 08:27 AM
  #310
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What kind of camp is he going to run?
What is he going to do about all of his off-ice commitments?
What assistant coaches is HE going to recommend?
How is he going to communicate to the team, through the captain? As an authoritative figure Autocratic? Democratic?
Whats his policy regarding curfews?
What kind of practices is he going to run?
What are his feelings on game day skates and optionals?
How is he going to handle off-days and rest?
What are his plans for managing goaltenders?
etc., etc., ETC., ETC., ETC.


I'm up in the air on Messier as coach. If it happens, it happens, nothing I, or anyone here can do about it.

But....has anyone ever given thought that Messier has been preparing for this for a few years and he has answers to those questions? Do people think he's just would go into this unprepared?

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06-05-2013, 08:35 AM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanErixon20 View Post
What kind of camp is he going to run?
What is he going to do about all of his off-ice commitments?
What assistant coaches is HE going to recommend?
How is he going to communicate to the team, through the captain? As an authoritative figure Autocratic? Democratic?
Whats his policy regarding curfews?
What kind of practices is he going to run?
What are his feelings on game day skates and optionals?
How is he going to handle off-days and rest?
What are his plans for managing goaltenders?
etc., etc., ETC., ETC., ETC.


I'm up in the air on Messier as coach. If it happens, it happens, nothing I, or anyone here can do about it.

But....has anyone ever given thought that Messier has been preparing for this for a few years and he has answers to those questions? Do people think he's just would go into this unprepared?

If he has been preparing to be an NHL coach, particularly a New York Rangers head coach for years, he should have done some coaching.

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06-05-2013, 08:38 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by SixGoalieSystem View Post
If he has been preparing to be an NHL coach, particularly a New York Rangers head coach for years, he should have done some coaching.
I can't disagree but he has been sitting up in the box for two years with Sather, who was a pretty good coach back in his day. It's not like he's been playing golf in Hilton Head and is coming back.

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06-05-2013, 08:42 AM
  #313
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I can't disagree but he has been sitting up in the box for two years with Sather, who was a pretty good coach back in his day. It's not like he's been playing golf in Hilton Head and is coming back.
A good coach with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey etc? Wow, color me shocked.

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06-05-2013, 08:44 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by JanErixon20 View Post

But....has anyone ever given thought that Messier has been preparing for this for a few years and he has answers to those questions? Do people think he's just would go into this unprepared?
Preparing? By sitting up there on the ninth floor watching hockey?

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06-05-2013, 08:50 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by JanErixon20 View Post
I can't disagree but he has been sitting up in the box for two years with Sather, who was a pretty good coach back in his day. It's not like he's been playing golf in Hilton Head and is coming back.
I'm sure Messier has a lof of the qualities we are looking for, for all I know he could surprise us all if chosen and lead this team to the cup. However, as people have mentioned earlier, it's too much of a gamble. With literally no coaching experience since retiring, how can anyone know what to expect of him. Even if he does put forth a credible plan and strategy to reach the cup, how can we trust his ability to deliver?

If he had only done a little bit of coaching on the AHL level, with at least an ounce of success I would feel better about him as coach.

BTW: People are saying hiring Mess would be a move typical of Sather. I'd say the Sather move would be to overpay for a washed up old guy that used to know the tricks. Lindy Ruff it is.

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06-05-2013, 08:50 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
A good coach with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey etc? Wow, color me shocked.
The same guy who also said he'd win the Cup every year if he had the Rangers finances.

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06-05-2013, 08:50 AM
  #317
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Tippett is waiting and waiting. http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyo...nclick_check=1

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06-05-2013, 08:53 AM
  #318
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Sather did a lousy job as coach when he replaced Trottier. The team was ****. He didn't even complete the 03-04 season. Renney took over. Sather is no benefit to Messier as a coach. The game is so different than 30 years ago. Sather threw the pucks on the ice and watched the players skate. Muckler was on that staff.


Last edited by RangerBoy: 06-05-2013 at 08:59 AM.
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06-05-2013, 08:54 AM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
A good coach with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey etc? Wow, color me shocked.
So Scotty Bowman isn't a good coach? Al Arbour?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Preparing? By sitting up there on the ninth floor watching hockey?
Yes, he just watches the game, eating popcorn and having a few laughs about the old days.

Bottom line is if people don't think Messier has a plan in mind, you're lost. I'm not saying he's going to be a good coach, a bad coach or that I even want him to be the coach. But to think he'd jump into this without a clue is nonsense. Give the guy a little credit.

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06-05-2013, 08:58 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by shinchanyo View Post
I want to take away my most knowledgable vote for you now I came here just to post that wsj article. Btw Mr. "most knowledgable" (HA!) he coached AGAINST the guy's son! (I'm giving you tongue in cheek sour grapes and I'm REALLY hoping I'm wrong about the fact that he coached against the kid b/c it'd make me look like a fool and add another layer of lol's to it)

Anyway I read it as kind of a tongue in cheek thing I don't think he's seriously campaigning for Mess based on this one pee wee experience. At least I really hope for his sake otherwise with logic like this he'll be out of a job soon.
I stopped reading when the guy brought up pee wee hockey as a reason to name Messier head coach of an NHL coach and assumed it was his kid.

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06-05-2013, 08:59 AM
  #321
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Bottom line is if people don't think Messier has a plan in mind, you're lost. I'm not saying he's going to be a good coach, a bad coach or that I even want him to be the coach. But to think he'd jump into this without a clue is nonsense. Give the guy a little credit.
I posted this earlier:

There's enough guesswork and projecting when it comes to picking a coach. To me, adding in "maybe he'll be a good coach" is adding in an extra and unnecessary level of unknown. There should be a body of work you can look to and know if a candidate is a good coach or not and evaluate who has the best chance to make the team successful.

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06-05-2013, 09:05 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I posted this earlier:

There's enough guesswork and projecting when it comes to picking a coach. To me, adding in "maybe he'll be a good coach" is adding in an extra and unnecessary level of unknown. There should be a body of work you can look to and know if a candidate is a good coach or not and evaluate who has the best chance to make the team successful.
I can't disagree with that.

I wasn't saying I'm for Messier as coach, I'm just saying I'm not prepared to go crazy if he's hired.

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06-05-2013, 09:09 AM
  #323
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Messier may very well end up being a good coach, but the Rangers shouldn't be a guinea pig to find out. He should earn the opportunity to coach an NHL team like most of the other coaches in this league.

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06-05-2013, 09:16 AM
  #324
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanErixon20 View Post
I can't disagree with that.

I wasn't saying I'm for Messier as coach, I'm just saying I'm not prepared to go crazy if he's hired.
I'm preparing myself for him getting hired.

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06-05-2013, 09:20 AM
  #325
JanErixon20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'm preparing myself for him getting hired.
Same here, I'm having a feeling it's going to go that way.

The Rangers don't hire coaches like Dallas Eakins, who to be fair, I had no idea was coaching or was a "rising star" until the day JT was fired. Who was the last minor league/assistant coach they hired? Ted Sather? It's just not done here.

Ruff and Vigneault? Eh, don't really do much for me. Out of the two, I'd pick Vigneault, gun to my head. If I had to pick one guy it would be Tippet, but I'm guessing he stays in PHX.

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