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Trade value of Andrei Markov

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Old
06-05-2013, 11:37 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Maybe i'm undervaluing Scuderi, as I just think he's a taller version of Gorges, who IMO isn't a top 4, arguably #4/#5 defenseman.

Scuderi I would say is, now that I think about it, in LA and was in Pittsburgh. How much do you think he would demand in FA?
He and Gorges are basically the same player. But note that was good enough to be a clear top 4 on one of the league's defensive powerhouses.

But to an appriciable extent, the rest of your top 4 doesn't need to be brilliant if you've got an elite guy at the top as Boston and LA have shown with Chara/Doughty. Its when you don't have that when you need the Van/Nyr approach of 4ish good blueliners.

If Subban is the Habs' elite guy, which I think he is, then you need to fill out the D with guys who compliment him. So:

- One first pairing PP set up man (Markov) because Subban is mainly a shooter.

- One positionally sound defenseman to pair with Subban on a shutdown unit (this year both Gorges and Markov played well at that).

- 2 other PMD for pairings 2 and 3. (This year Markov + Diaz).

- 3 other PKing defenseman. Only 1 or 2 need to be really good at it, the 2nd pairing only needs to be competent. (This year, Gorges et al)

- 3 defensive defensemen, also where your going to get whatever size/crease clearing/physical play you want from the lineup. (Gorges, Emelin + Boullion this year, Boulllion is an obvious place to upgrade).

- 1 PMD and 1 defensive D from above competent to form a secondary big minutes pairing. (Markov-Emelin this year).

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06-05-2013, 11:48 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I think you're undervaluing both. Both are legit #3-4 NHL d-men.

Scuderi is playing #2 minutes in LA these playoffs and was getting #3 minutes during the season. He gor #3 minutes last yaer on a cup winner, season and playoffs.

Hard to say due to him being 34...maybe 3 years at 13.5-14.5 mil.
Quite possibly. I might be using this season for Gorges as a bit of bias, as he played quite bad down the stretch. I've thought he's a #4/#5 fringe guy. Maybe he is a #3/#4 guy.

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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
He and Gorges are basically the same player. But note that was good enough to be a clear top 4 on one of the league's defensive powerhouses.

But to an appriciable extent, the rest of your top 4 doesn't need to be brilliant if you've got an elite guy at the top as Boston and LA have shown with Chara/Doughty. Its when you don't have that when you need the Van/Nyr approach of 4ish good blueliners.

If Subban is the Habs' elite guy, which I think he is, then you need to fill out the D with guys who compliment him. So:

- One first pairing PP set up man (Markov) because Subban is mainly a shooter.

- One positionally sound defenseman to pair with Subban on a shutdown unit (this year both Gorges and Markov played well at that).

- 2 other PMD for pairings 2 and 3. (This year Markov + Diaz).

- 3 other PKing defenseman. Only 1 or 2 need to be really good at it, the 2nd pairing only needs to be competent. (This year, Gorges et al)

- 3 defensive defensemen, also where your going to get whatever size/crease clearing/physical play you want from the lineup. (Gorges, Emelin + Boullion this year, Boulllion is an obvious place to upgrade).

- 1 PMD and 1 defensive D from above competent to form a secondary big minutes pairing. (Markov-Emelin this year).
I don't remember Markov being a positionally sound defenseman to pair with Subban as shutdown, but i could be forgetting.

Also, i lost track at the number of defenseman and which roles they play. Please summarise...

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06-05-2013, 12:05 PM
  #153
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Quite possibly. I might be using this season for Gorges as a bit of bias, as he played quite bad down the stretch. I've thought he's a #4/#5 fringe guy. Maybe he is a #3/#4 guy.
I don't find Gorges was bad, but it's all about perople's perspective, last year he had Subban had the great numbers and played tough matchups, this year people start talking about Gorges cap hit and perspective quickly changes becuse of chatter.

I think Gorges is top 4 on just about any NHL team, or at least on par with their #4 guy, people desperately looking for zits.

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06-05-2013, 12:08 PM
  #154
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Quite possibly. I might be using this season for Gorges as a bit of bias, as he played quite bad down the stretch. I've thought he's a #4/#5 fringe guy. Maybe he is a #3/#4 guy.



I don't remember Markov being a positionally sound defenseman to pair with Subban as shutdown, but i could be forgetting.

Also, i lost track at the number of defenseman and which roles they play. Please summarise...
Subban: #1 ES, top PP unit shooter, didn't see much PK even though he should have. Played 3rd pairing with Boullion to start, management came to their senses eventually and played top unit ES and PP after Diaz injury.
Markov: #2, played all situations. Top PP playmaker. Played shutdown 2nd unit with Emelin.
Gorges: Top 4 defensive specialist. Lots of PKing which is his best discipline
Diaz: Top 4 puck moving specialist. Mainly 2nd unit work with Gorges. 2nd unit PP after starting on the 1st unit.
Emelin: Top 4 physical/defensive specialist. Shutdown work with Markov. Regular PK work which he competent but not particularly great at.
Boullion: Bottom pairing ES. Played both PP and PK, was terrible at both special teams.

So Subban is brilliant, after him is 4 guys with various strengths and weaknesses that can fill out a top 4. And then there is Boullion who got overplayed and out of his depth at any role but bottom pair ES.

Markov's issue is mobility, not positioning. When defending in zone he's quite solid, its only when the game gets away from him on the rush where he has some problems.

Markov-Subban were put together at the end of the year and the result was a pairng that simply owned the puck. This is particularly noticable in the playoff series against Ottawa where they were the go to unit for taking defensive draws and they got matched up heavily against Karlsson, one of the league's better puck control players. They were extrodinarily attempt at retriving the puck and moving it out and out-chanced the Sens heavily, only to be undone by the imbalance in goaltending.

It can get pretty easy to over-estimate the amount of talent there is league wide. A 3/4 is essentially and average starting lineup defenseman. Which is basically what the Gorges and Scudari types are, guys that won't be on the 3rd pair unless their team is extraordinarily deep.

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06-05-2013, 02:45 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
He and Gorges are basically the same player. But note that was good enough to be a clear top 4 on one of the league's defensive powerhouses.

But to an appriciable extent, the rest of your top 4 doesn't need to be brilliant if you've got an elite guy at the top as Boston and LA have shown with Chara/Doughty. Its when you don't have that when you need the Van/Nyr approach of 4ish good blueliners.

If Subban is the Habs' elite guy, which I think he is, then you need to fill out the D with guys who compliment him. So:

- One first pairing PP set up man (Markov) because Subban is mainly a shooter.

- One positionally sound defenseman to pair with Subban on a shutdown unit (this year both Gorges and Markov played well at that).

- 2 other PMD for pairings 2 and 3. (This year Markov + Diaz).

- 3 other PKing defenseman. Only 1 or 2 need to be really good at it, the 2nd pairing only needs to be competent. (This year, Gorges et al)

- 3 defensive defensemen, also where your going to get whatever size/crease clearing/physical play you want from the lineup. (Gorges, Emelin + Boullion this year, Boulllion is an obvious place to upgrade).

- 1 PMD and 1 defensive D from above competent to form a secondary big minutes pairing. (Markov-Emelin this year).
The problem this year is that our coaching staff didn't use our Defensemen the way they should have.

You had PK playing with Bouillon for the start until Diaz got injured. You had Markov playing the tougher minutes. You have Emelin playing on his off wing which gives him clear trouble.

What I would like to see next year is

?-PK
Markov-Gorges
Tinordi-Diaz
Bouillon

Emelin injured to start.

Scuderi would be a pretty good fit next to PK.

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06-05-2013, 03:18 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The problem this year is that our coaching staff didn't use our Defensemen the way they should have.

You had PK playing with Bouillon for the start until Diaz got injured. You had Markov playing the tougher minutes. You have Emelin playing on his off wing which gives him clear trouble.

What I would like to see next year is

?-PK
Markov-Gorges
Tinordi-Diaz
Bouillon

Emelin injured to start.

Scuderi would be a pretty good fit next to PK.

ES wise they were doing alright IMO, with some caveats.

Markov-Emelin was more or less fine. They played a big role and handled it with reasonably competence, although the declined as the season went on (played like a solid 1st through 20 games or so, declined to a decent 2nd). But I think you can flip Gorges and Emelin and get more or less the same thing.

They goofed on Subban to start, but the next 4 guys on the depth chart were good enough to make a decent top 4 (so long as Markov was playing like a reasonable #1).

They did have big problems when down two bodies though. Markov can't carry a plug like he used to in the days of O'Byrne/MAB. He can lead a 2nd pair but he isn't a 2nd pair on his own. So no Diaz and Emelin meant problems, particularly as this was when Price was going through a rough stretch that Markov bared the brunt off.

The big thing I think was on special teams. They should have realized that Markov has too many miles on his frame to waste his minutes as a PKer, where he is undistinguished. They also should have realized that Boullion has no business playing special teams minutes. The upshot on that is Subban should have been a regular PKer and wasn't.

For next year, I doubt they sign anyone new, if additions happen they are either going to be at the deadline. So they go with the Playoff pairings to start.

Markov-Subban
Gorges-Diaz
Tinordi-Boullion

Which works out to arguable the best 1st pair in the East, a mediocre 2nd that is probably going to lose their matchup and a decent low minutes 3rd pair. You can't play Diaz and Subban together and those are the best 4 bodies you've got so you have to ride them.

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06-05-2013, 05:07 PM
  #157
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Clowe scored 0 goals for the Sharks this year and Murray was their 7th Dman.

Markov on the other hand finished top 4 in the NHL for pts, 2nd for PP pts. Gionta is our captain, tied for 3rd for Goals by forwards on our team, 2nd in PP goals from Forwards.

But yea, I totally get comparing them to someone that didn't score one goal and a Dman that barely played half their games. Totally the same situation.




To be fair, if we move Markov, I think we'll be the team desperately looking for a PP QB. Nobody has shown the ability to really QB our PP.
Unless we find someone capable of replacing him there and feeding PK some good precise passes, I have no interest in moving him. Unless we're obviously out of the running and Markov doesn't want to re-sign at a cheaper price.



So beat up he just finished 2nd in the NHL for PP pts, top 4 overall for points. Ya, I think I'll be a little more patient with the guy, it might just be worth it.

Sometimes, it's a lot better to risk keeping the player than to trade him away for cheap value.

What if Markov isn't beat-up? Just entertain this idea. Then what? You trade him for a return that really doesn't match his actual value, you see him perform well on another team, again one of the leaders in pp Pts in the NHL, we whine about how we need a QB for our PP. Awesome.

If we were talking about a Souray type of player, then I'd agree with you because even if he isn't beat up, he still isn't that great no matter how serviceable.
Markov on the other hand, if he can adjust his game focusing a lot more on smart positioning (like Lidstrom had to do) , reduce his pinches, and be smart when engaging battles in the corners (to protect himself), then he can remain a very, very solid Dman. Not to mention his always present offensive production.

So ya, I'm gonna wait to see how he performs this year before jumping the gun. Maybe he slowed down due to other reason than the very simple ''he's beat up''.
Maybe it's due to him playing 20 games in the past 2 years before this season?
Maybe it's due to him losing his partner and simply not having the same balance with his replacement?
If you look back at his career, Markov always looked best when paired with a bigger defensive guy. So it isn't surprising he didn't look as good without Emelin.
Maybe it's the fact he played 48 games in 99 days? Not to mention the games in the KHL.

I mean, didn't the whole team look beat up by season's end? So why is it that Markov needs to be traded because of it? The whole team seem to downshift into a lower gear, it wasn't just Markov.
Heck, people were even saying that for a 19yo rookie. They were saying how Gally is probably tired having played so little last year when he went through his funk. Markov played barely played over the past 3years!

Markov's season was a success, not a failure. This was an amazing bounce back year for him. I don't understand how anybody can view it and not be excited about having him back. Skeptical that he can remain healthy, fine, I get it. I have my doubts as well. But I'm not risking trading him. The return we'll get will never be better than him if he's able to keep adapting. So, I much rather gamble on him than against.

And we're not in a rebuild mode. We're in a transitional period where the youngsters are taking over.
Brilliant post. Thank you.

Markov makes our PP function and is almost impossible to replace there. He only looked slower at the end of the season and in the playoffs where fatigue caught up to him. He DID play 69 games before the playoffs for the 1st time in years, while logging over 24 minutes per game. He will be fine this upcoming season. He has shown that he can play at his previous levels, and his conditioning will have improved by the start of next season. He also won't be playing such a condensed schedule next season, either. He is irreplaceable for us, right now.

By the way, we are not anywhere close to "rebuilding", and if anyone thinks we are they need to look at what we have done over the last 6 years. We missed the playoffs once. Notice management was screwed up, coaching was abysmal, and we were missing these two players everyone seems to want to trade: Gionta and Markov. Very interesting evaluation of our team from some people. Missing the playoffs the season before was the aberration, not the rule. Our team has a couple of serious needs (a big, defensive, hard hitting defenceman who can fight AND a top 6 forward who can hit, skate, provide some offence, and fight), but other than that, we have a contending team. We did not finish 2nd overall by fluke.

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06-05-2013, 05:08 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The problem this year is that our coaching staff didn't use our Defensemen the way they should have.

You had PK playing with Bouillon for the start until Diaz got injured. You had Markov playing the tougher minutes. You have Emelin playing on his off wing which gives him clear trouble.

What I would like to see next year is

?-PK
Markov-Gorges
Tinordi-Diaz
Bouillon

Emelin injured to start.

Scuderi would be a pretty good fit next to PK.
Tinordi has to be paired with Markov if you want to see him develop into an amazing player. Markov always makes his more physical and defensive oriented partner look better and play better.

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06-05-2013, 07:10 PM
  #159
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I wanted Regehr and would have easily given him a two-year, 8 million deal. But alas, cannot come true (****in' Kings).

The next available option IMO, would be Zdlicky or Streit. I don't see Streit getting a 4+ year deal like some have said. I do seeing him getting a 3-year deal and would offer him 2-year, 11-12 million deal. Problem is with our current roster, have no cap for it.
Regehr would've been great. Exactly what we needed.
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
That's where guys like Bouillon and Diaz are valuable. Ideally they are #5 and #7 on the depth chart but can play bigger minutes if needed.

I would hope something gets done before the trade deadline, either sign an extension(obviously would have to be good value and tradeable) or move him.
Neither are top four guys on a regular basis. And neither are the big rough blueliner that we need.
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You are right. But none of the above are top 4 defenseman...
Scuderi is. He didn't lead his teams to cups but he certainly wasn't just a passenger either. I always felt he was the unsung hero of the Pens cup win. 2 x cup winner and a really solid player. Not the rough customer that Regehr is but he's really solid.

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06-05-2013, 08:35 PM
  #160
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Tinordi has to be paired with Markov if you want to see him develop into an amazing player. Markov always makes his more physical and defensive oriented partner look better and play better.
The reason why I didn't put him there is because I just don't know if Tinordi can play well on the right, and I'm pretty fed up of having a bunch of guys play off their wing, especially if it turns them into less effective players.

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06-05-2013, 09:49 PM
  #161
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ES wise they were doing alright IMO, with some caveats.

Markov-Emelin was more or less fine. They played a big role and handled it with reasonably competence, although the declined as the season went on (played like a solid 1st through 20 games or so, declined to a decent 2nd). But I think you can flip Gorges and Emelin and get more or less the same thing.

They goofed on Subban to start, but the next 4 guys on the depth chart were good enough to make a decent top 4 (so long as Markov was playing like a reasonable #1).

They did have big problems when down two bodies though. Markov can't carry a plug like he used to in the days of O'Byrne/MAB. He can lead a 2nd pair but he isn't a 2nd pair on his own. So no Diaz and Emelin meant problems, particularly as this was when Price was going through a rough stretch that Markov bared the brunt off.

The big thing I think was on special teams. They should have realized that Markov has too many miles on his frame to waste his minutes as a PKer, where he is undistinguished. They also should have realized that Boullion has no business playing special teams minutes. The upshot on that is Subban should have been a regular PKer and wasn't.

For next year, I doubt they sign anyone new, if additions happen they are either going to be at the deadline. So they go with the Playoff pairings to start.

Markov-Subban
Gorges-Diaz
Tinordi-Boullion

Which works out to arguable the best 1st pair in the East, a mediocre 2nd that is probably going to lose their matchup and a decent low minutes 3rd pair. You can't play Diaz and Subban together and those are the best 4 bodies you've got so you have to ride them.
I thought our D was pretty good overall, but I think if we had shaped up our pairings differently, it would have been even better.
I'm not sure we start the year with the same group. Actually, I'd be pretty surprised. It's clear that we need it to change. I also want a PMD on every pairing, and I think Markov would be very dominant on the 2nd pairing.

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06-05-2013, 10:56 PM
  #162
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I thought our D was pretty good overall, but I think if we had shaped up our pairings differently, it would have been even better.
I'm not sure we start the year with the same group. Actually, I'd be pretty surprised. It's clear that we need it to change. I also want a PMD on every pairing, and I think Markov would be very dominant on the 2nd pairing.
I think it could use some retooling too, but the roster spot to change was Boullion's and they kept him. So unless they make a trade, I think this is what your going to see until the trade deadline.

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06-05-2013, 11:26 PM
  #163
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I think it could use some retooling too, but the roster spot to change was Boullion's and they kept him. So unless they make a trade, I think this is what your going to see until the trade deadline.
Perhaps, but they signed him while he was still performing somewhat surprisingly well.
I viewed Bouillon as the 7th Dman, and hopefully that's where he'll be next year, battling for the 6th position vs Tinordi until Emelin comes back.

If Emelin is indeed not ready to start the year, then I doubt we will just take a chance on riding Tinordi/Beaulieu/Bouillon as 5-6-7 Dman.

But obviously I can be wrong.

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06-06-2013, 01:38 AM
  #164
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Perhaps, but they signed him while he was still performing somewhat surprisingly well.
I viewed Bouillon as the 7th Dman, and hopefully that's where he'll be next year, battling for the 6th position vs Tinordi until Emelin comes back.

If Emelin is indeed not ready to start the year, then I doubt we will just take a chance on riding Tinordi/Beaulieu/Bouillon as 5-6-7 Dman.

But obviously I can be wrong.
There's no problem with Tinordi starting the season as the 7th dmen or 8th dmen down in Hamilton.

Recent history teaches us that Habs dmen drop like flies as the season goes on. Let Tinordi (and Beaulieu, Ellis, and Pateryn) dominate in Hamilton for 20-25 minutes a game, which is excellent for their development at this stage. When we get to the point that there are 3 or 4 simultaneous injuries on the Habs top-6 blueliners, which will happen maybe 20 games into the season, we can start calling them up, as Bergevin did this year.

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06-06-2013, 02:12 AM
  #165
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I'm not sure what mode we're in now. The team had a great year with three young players taking prominent roles. Price, Max and Subban are close to their prime...

But we've got size issues and our D is a bit of a mess. We're in that weird 'in between stage' where we're still developing but not really truly rebuilding. Galchenyuk, Gallagher and Eller all took huge steps forward last year. Will they keep improving or will there be a fallback? Just don't know right now.

I'd say for the most part the future core of a winning team is there for the future. For the most part we know what we'll have going forward. Now its' time to let these guys play and show us what they can do.

MB knows we have to get bigger and that's what I expect from him this offseason. He can start by building up the D. We desperately need a big top 4 blueliner who can play rough. If he can land us a big solid guy there, it will go a long way for us next season.
I think we've had a great season who was really a half one. We have the tools to be a great team in 3 years but to get there, I would like for us to get rid of some old wood like Markov, Gorges, Gionta, so we can get even younger next year so that other young guys can join the dance.

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06-06-2013, 07:46 AM
  #166
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There's no problem with Tinordi starting the season as the 7th dmen or 8th dmen down in Hamilton.

Recent history teaches us that Habs dmen drop like flies as the season goes on. Let Tinordi (and Beaulieu, Ellis, and Pateryn) dominate in Hamilton for 20-25 minutes a game, which is excellent for their development at this stage. When we get to the point that there are 3 or 4 simultaneous injuries on the Habs top-6 blueliners, which will happen maybe 20 games into the season, we can start calling them up, as Bergevin did this year.
I have no issues with that, actually that's what I'm hoping for.
I have him as 6th and Bouillon as 7th, but that means we have to sign a new player.

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06-06-2013, 08:08 AM
  #167
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I have no issues with that, actually that's what I'm hoping for.
I have him as 6th and Bouillon as 7th, but that means we have to sign a new player.
Yes agreed, we need to sign one more player, or acquire one through trade.

Scuderi would be an excellent pickup:

Markov-Subban
Scuderi-Gorges
Bouillon-Diaz

When Emelin comes back, he takes the place of whoever happens to be injured at that time. If multiple players are injured, he bumps down the least well performing AHL callup. As an example, let's say Emelin comes back at the 40 game mark, and Subban, Gorges, and Diaz are simultaneously injured (i.e. median expectations), we would thus be playing:

Markov-Beaulieu
Scuderi-Tinordi
Pateryn-Bouillon

Emelin would take the place of whichever of Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn is playing the least well.

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06-06-2013, 11:47 PM
  #168
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I think we've had a great season who was really a half one. We have the tools to be a great team in 3 years but to get there, I would like for us to get rid of some old wood like Markov, Gorges, Gionta, so we can get even younger next year so that other young guys can join the dance.
I'd be fine with moving Markov and I actually think we should move Gionta...

Gorges is a different case. He's coming off a disapointing year but he could bounce back. He made some dumb comments regarding Subban that rubbed me the wrong way but he can still be a key part of this team moving forward. And he's still pretty young and coming into his prime.

Quite frankly, I don't know if we can afford to lose Gorges right now. Our D is pretty thin.

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06-07-2013, 01:05 AM
  #169
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tinordi subban
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06-07-2013, 04:03 AM
  #170
TT1
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markov needs to be traded because hes of no use to us anyways, hes an aging player and we wont have a cup contending team anytime soon. the only problem is i have no idea what his value is

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06-07-2013, 04:59 AM
  #171
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markov needs to be traded because hes of no use to us anyways, hes an aging player and we wont have a cup contending team anytime soon. the only problem is i have no idea what his value is
his value is unimportant because Markov will not be traded from this team... ever.

Many great defenseman made contributions in their later years, Markov is one of them. He's a leader on this team and he'll be there to inspire the many kids that come through the front door over the next several years.

Besides his declining play is overstated.

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06-07-2013, 05:04 AM
  #172
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thats the type of attitude that sets organizations behind, sorry but i dont believe in that of philosophy


Last edited by TT1: 06-07-2013 at 05:10 AM.
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06-07-2013, 05:10 AM
  #173
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markov needs to be traded because hes of no use to us anyways, hes an aging player and we wont have a cup contending team anytime soon. the only problem is i have no idea what his value is
Komisarek, Souray and now Emelin would probably disagree with you.

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06-07-2013, 05:14 AM
  #174
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Komisarek, Souray and now Emelin would probably disagree with you.
what your saying is beyond the point, what purpose do players like plek/markov have in a team that most likely isnt going to be a cup contender for the next 3 years? theyll just grow old and lose value
dunno tho, im still unsure about whether or not we should trade plek. but for the good of the organization markov definitely has to go


Last edited by TT1: 06-07-2013 at 05:21 AM.
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06-07-2013, 05:28 AM
  #175
ECWHSWI
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what your saying is beyond the point, what purpose do players like plek/markov have in a team that most likely isnt going to be a cup contender for the next 3 years? theyll just grow old and lose value
dunno tho, im still unsure about whether or not we should trade plek. but for the good of the organization markov definitely has to go
well, by the time we're a perennial contender, guys like Patches and Price will be closing on 30, maybe we should trade them now for assets that will be in their prime by then ?


also, Gorges, Prust, Moen and Bourque will be 30+ by then, should we ship them too ?

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