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Montreal Canadiens Drafting Hit Rate (under Trevor Timmins)

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Old
06-05-2013, 09:58 PM
  #226
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
that is so nitpickish to the point of making your entire argument look pedantic.

oh, and nitpicking aside, he got a norris finalist in the 2nd or 3rd round during the 5 year period that you mentioned.

god let that be enough
It is nitpickish (I like that word ) but at the same time relevant.

I will leave it at this. We had ZERO depth at shut down DMen this season.

Hope all is well on the other side of the world.

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06-05-2013, 10:12 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
It is nitpickish (I like that word ) but at the same time relevant.

I will leave it at this. We had ZERO depth at shut down DMen this season.
so? i fail to see how that is his fault. it's management's fault if anything. i will concede that drafting huge and angry d-men with shaaaaarp teeth doesn't appear to be his forte. but again: so? look at the lengthy list of players that were given away by management, you don't think a couple of them could have garnered that shutdown guy you're pining for (the fjords)?

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Hope all is well on the other side of the world.
no. it's gray and smoggy and foggy and trafficky and stupid and rainy and noisy and dirty

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06-06-2013, 05:01 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I disagree with you. Do I believe that you are dense? I dont think so. We just do not agree.
Yeah, but you are 100% wrong. It's alright to have an opinion but it should be based on something factual, and yours isn't, it's based on emotion.

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06-06-2013, 05:06 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I will leave it at this. We had ZERO depth at shut down DMen this season.


Alexei Emelin and PK Subban are both NHL regulars drafted by the club.
Jarred Tinordi as a prospect, is almost there.
Ryan McDonagh, one of the organization's best selections of the past 10 years, was sent off for nothing. He is an effective shutdown presence.

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06-06-2013, 06:44 AM
  #230
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This past page and a half has been funny. Trevor Timmins has an unbelievable drafting record for us from 2003-2013. A ten year period where we have produced the following stars, regulars, or 13th F/7th/8th D in the following rounds:

Kostitsyn (1st)
Lapierre (2nd)
Obyrne (3rd)
Halak (9th)
Chipchura (1st)
Emelin (3rd)
Grabovski (5th
Streit (9th)
Price (1st)
Latendresse (2nd)
D'Agostini (6th)
Kostitsyn (7th)
White (3rd)
McDonagh (1st)
Pacioretty (1st)
Subban (2nd)
Weber (3rd)
Dumont (5th)
Tinordi (1st)
Gallagher (5th)
Galchenyuk (1st)

I don't know any other scout in the entire NHL that has drafted 21 NHL ready players (plus more still developing in Beaulieu, most of 2012 draft) in 10 years, an average of 2 players per draft with a success rate of about 28% with 7 rounds of drafting (some years we had 9 rounds, but that was for 2 years before the lockout).

It's hard to blame TT when guys like Streit, McD, Grabo, were traded/let go for almost nothing...or nothing, and other players like AK, SK, Lats, Weber haven't been developed properly. Weber ironically started off as a great offensive threat for us back in the 2007-08 season, and the last time i saw la jeune as a regular/or somewhat close to one was in 2010-11. Replaced by the better swiss in Diaz, don't think his development helped when he went from like 6th/7th to 8th on the depth chart after the 2011 playoffs.

Anyways, we can blame this person or that person for certain struggles/weaknesses our team has endured over the years and oppositely praise this person or that person for our strengths/moral victories. Until we win another SC, this is all moot for me. It's SC or bust IMO. It's time for the next 5 years for this management/scouting group to start bringing us a contending team for the next 4-5 years (starting in a couple years I think, we should have a contender for more than 3 years).

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06-06-2013, 08:41 AM
  #231
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Some of this pre-dates Timmins, but you'd be hard pressed to find a deeper team full of NHL talent than the one listed below - all players drafted by the Montreal Canadiens and still NHL calibre.

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gallagher
Galchenyuk-Ribeiro-Ryder
Higgins-Koivu-Lapierre
S Kostitsyn-Grabovski-D'Agostini
Latendresse-Chipchura-White
Asham

Markov-Subban
Beauchemin-Emelin
McDonough-Hainsey
Streit-Robidas
Tinordi-O'Byrne
Carkner-Weber
Komisarek

Price
Halak
Vokoun
Theodore
Garon

Not included:

Players not quite NHL'ers yet - Dumont and Beaulieu.
Obvious NHL talents that went back to the KHL - Perezhogin and A Kostitsyn.
Undrafted players that signed as free agents with Montreal - Desharnais and Diaz, who Timmins should get credit for.

11 of those forwards have scored 20 goals in a season (I'm including Gallagher who got 15 goals in 44 games).
6 of those defensemen have scored 30 points in a season.
All 5 goalies were starters at one point. 3 of them are all-stars. 1 is a Hart / Vezina winner.


Last edited by CGG: 06-06-2013 at 08:52 AM.
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06-06-2013, 08:55 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
In life and in sports, there is not always black nor always white. There are shades of gray.

Timmins has made many good draft picks. I give him credit for those picks and have said in my posts that I do not want him to leave Montreal.

Is it so wrong to criticize him for not drafting a shut down DMan in the 2nd or 3rd round during the 5 year period that I mentioned? Its not a condemnation of Timmins. No, it is just a criticism of a move with the luxury of hindsight.
I don't know if it's wrong, but it's certainly ridiculous. Especially since you've conveniently narrowed your scope to exclude the 3 shutdown defensemen he has drafted who are actively playing in the NHL (and ignores the ones he did draft but who didn't develop into NHLers, making it appear as though it's an area he's neglected entirely).

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06-06-2013, 08:57 AM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Undrafted players that signed as free agents with Montreal - Desharnais and Diaz, who Timmins should get credit for.
What does Timmins have to do with scouting professionals? Diaz was in the Swiss A before we signed him (I believe Zurich?) and Desharnais was tearing up the ECHL/2 post-draft eligible years in the Q. Maybe Desharnais you could give him credit for, but seeing as how both were signed after stints of various sizes in professional leagues, and Timmins is the Director of AMATEUR Scouting, I don't know how you can directly equate them with Timmins.

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06-06-2013, 09:01 AM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Is it so wrong to criticize him for not drafting a shut down DMan in the 2nd or 3rd round during the 5 year period that I mentioned? Its not a condemnation of Timmins. No, it is just a criticism of a move with the luxury of hindsight.
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I don't know if it's wrong, but it's certainly ridiculous. Especially since you've conveniently narrowed your scope to exclude the 3 shutdown defensemen he has drafted who are actively playing in the NHL (and ignores the ones he did draft but who didn't develop into NHLers, making it appear as though it's an area he's neglected entirely).
I didn't know Subban wasn't a shutdown defenseman. He's so versatile he can play almost any role; PMD, Shutdown defenseman, possibly PP QB, PK specialist, etc. The reason why he doesn't play all is he because you can only use him so much before you overwork him.

In 2010 playoffs, when Subban was barely wet behind his ears, playing 2 games in the regular season, after the first 3 games in the playoffs where his avg TOI was around 14 mins/game, the remaining 16 games he averaged around 23-24 mins/game with Gill, specializing in shutting down Ovechkin's line and Crosby's line, doing a good enough job to win us both series in 7 (along with our extremely hot goaltender).

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06-06-2013, 09:02 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
I didn't know Subban wasn't a shutdown defenseman. He's so versatile he can play almost any role; PMD, Shutdown defenseman, possibly PP QB, PK specialist, etc. The reason why he doesn't play all is he because you can only use him so much before you overwork him.

In 2010 playoffs, when Subban was barely wet behind his ears, playing 2 games in the regular season, after the first 3 games in the playoffs where his avg TOI was around 14 mins/game, the remaining 16 games he averaged around 23-24 mins/game with Gill, specializing in shutting down Ovechkin's line and Crosby's line, doing a good enough job to win us both series in 7 (along with our extremely hot goaltender).
You could include Subban in that category now, but since he was drafted as an offensive defenseman, I left him out.

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06-06-2013, 09:20 AM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
You could include Subban in that category now, but since he was drafted as an offensive defenseman, I left him out.
I guess you could thank JM for that and possibly Markov's injured knee. I understand though what you mean. I just looked at his OHL/first year AHL numbers,

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06-06-2013, 11:42 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
What does Timmins have to do with scouting professionals? Diaz was in the Swiss A before we signed him (I believe Zurich?) and Desharnais was tearing up the ECHL/2 post-draft eligible years in the Q. Maybe Desharnais you could give him credit for, but seeing as how both were signed after stints of various sizes in professional leagues, and Timmins is the Director of AMATEUR Scouting, I don't know how you can directly equate them with Timmins.
Streit gets drafted as a 27 year old out of the Swiss League = Timmins is a genious.
Diaz gets signed as a UFA as a 24 year old out of the Swiss = Timmins had nothing to do with it?

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06-06-2013, 12:07 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Streit gets drafted as a 27 year old out of the Swiss League = Timmins is a genious.
Diaz gets signed as a UFA as a 24 year old out of the Swiss = Timmins had nothing to do with it?
Streit was pre-Gary Bettman #2 Lockout. WE HAD 9 ROUNDS OF DRAFTING????? Lol why?

Anyways, you make an excellent point that I had not seen till now. If you read TT's profile on canadiens.nhl.com here, it says,
Quote:
He oversees the Canadiens’ amateur scouting system, including the annual NHL Entry Draft and amateur free-agent recruitment. Trevor also supervises the Club’s amateur scouting staff, comprised of 14 amateur scouts covering Canada, the United States and Europe.
Key words to note that are said multiple times; amateur. Do you know for a fact Timmins wanted Streit? Same thing for Diaz?

Is Diaz considered an amateur free-agent? Don't think Swiss A is considered an "amateur" league.

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06-06-2013, 12:27 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Streit was pre-Gary Bettman #2 Lockout. WE HAD 9 ROUNDS OF DRAFTING????? Lol why?

Anyways, you make an excellent point that I had not seen till now. If you read TT's profile on canadiens.nhl.com here, it says,

Key words to note that are said multiple times; amateur. Do you know for a fact Timmins wanted Streit? Same thing for Diaz?

Is Diaz considered an amateur free-agent? Don't think Swiss A is considered an "amateur" league.
I did a whole lot of digging to find this quote...

Quote:
ArponBasu Arpon Basu
Zug coach Doug Shedden told @TonyMarinaro that #Habs Euro scout Christer Rockstrom saw a ton of his team's games this season, re: R. Diaz
Considering he played a key role for the Swiss at the WC's, I imagine most of the big cheeses saw him at least a couple of times.

But let's be realistic, we all say "Timmins drafted this guy" but I think the implication is understood that it's more accurately, "the scouting staff under Timmins' direction drafted this guy". None of us knows who's vouching for which guys and how many games of each all our scouts have seen.

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06-06-2013, 12:33 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I don't know if it's wrong, but it's certainly ridiculous. Especially since you've conveniently narrowed your scope to exclude the 3 shutdown defensemen he has drafted who are actively playing in the NHL (and ignores the ones he did draft but who didn't develop into NHLers, making it appear as though it's an area he's neglected entirely).
The point you are missing is that once Emelin was injured, we had no one ready to replace him. Tinordi is not quite ready.

Wouldnt it have been nice if Timmins would have drafted a shut down DMan two years before Tinordi so that we would have had more depth so we could handle a season ending injury to Emelin?

BPA works wonders in the 1st round when you have the most talent to pick from. After that, teams need to restock their prospect pool with positional players in the draft to prevent scenarios that derailed the Canadiens season in the playoffs.

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06-06-2013, 12:35 PM
  #241
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I guess you could thank JM for that and possibly Markov's injured knee. I understand though what you mean. I just looked at his OHL/first year AHL numbers,
And he was generally a step behind Weber statistically. They were the big PMD stars that year. Too bad Weber isn't a bit bigger and a bit more consistent, I'm sure he'll be the next Robidas once he goes to a team with more size and less PMDs.

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06-06-2013, 12:54 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The point you are missing is that once Emelin was injured, we had no one ready to replace him. Tinordi is not quite ready.

Wouldnt it have been nice if Timmins would have drafted a shut down DMan two years before Tinordi so that we would have had more depth so we could handle a season ending injury to Emelin?

BPA works wonders in the 1st round when you have the most talent to pick from. After that, teams need to restock their prospect pool with positional players in the draft to prevent scenarios that derailed the Canadiens season in the playoffs.
I'd max out HF's post character limit if I tried to list all the points you're missing. I've outlined a bunch already so I'm not going to waste my time anymore.

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06-06-2013, 03:25 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I'd max out HF's post character limit if I tried to list all the points you're missing. I've outlined a bunch already so I'm not going to waste my time anymore.
Did we have a Timmins drafted shut down DMan (other than Tinordi who should be effective next season) in a depth position ready to step in and replace Emelin?

Yes or no please.

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06-06-2013, 03:42 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Did we have a Timmins drafted shut down DMan (other than Tinordi who should be effective next season) in a depth position ready to step in and replace Emelin?

Yes or no please.
O'Byrne, Fischer, Gleed, Valentenko, Stejskal and McDonagh were all drafted. It's not as if we stopped drafting shutdown D. O'Byrne wasn't very good but was never given a chance here. Fischer busted. Valentenko was tossed into the Gomez deal for no reason and subsequently was never given a chance in New York because of xenophoboarella.

Timmins can't predict retarded GM syndrome trading all our depth when he drafts. He also can't be expected to be as effective when he goes three years without a second rounder/first rounder. I'm not understanding how you can cry when we don't buy at the deadline then cry that we don't have depth. We don't have depth because we bought at the deadline/middle of the season in 2008/9/10.

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06-06-2013, 03:44 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Did we have a Timmins drafted shut down DMan (other than Tinordi who should be effective next season) in a depth position ready to step in and replace Emelin?

Yes or no please.
Did he draft one? Yup. He drafted more than one, in fact. Did I not already present you with a Timmins-drafted D corps that included 3 shutdown defensemen?

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06-06-2013, 04:10 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Did we have a Timmins drafted shut down DMan (other than Tinordi who should be effective next season) in a depth position ready to step in and replace Emelin?

Yes or no please.
No. But if you look at the loss of Beauchemin , the acquisition of Niinamaa, Hamrlik, Gorges, MAB, Schneider, the ascendance of Streit, Weber, etc. are we sure that the man upstairs (Gainey) was interested in having beefy shut-downs on the blueline.

I tend to think that Gainey had a view of the post lockout world that never materialized. I think you will see Timmins constructing from a new blueprint this point forward.

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06-06-2013, 04:11 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
No. But if you look at the loss of Beauchemin , the acquisition of Niinamaa, Hamrlik, Gorges, MAB, Schneider, the ascendance of Streit, Weber, etc. are we sure that the man upstairs (Gainey) was interested in having beefy shut-downs on the blueline.

I tend to think that Gainey had a view of the post lockout world that never materialized. I think you will see Timmins constructing from a new blueprint this point forward.
Seems he already has, actually.

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06-06-2013, 04:17 PM
  #248
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Seems he already has, actually.
I agree, I guess my point is that the GM holds the blueprint and the scouting area for the most part executes the plan they are given. I think BG was ideological about blueline construction and my guess is that plan has been burned.

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06-06-2013, 04:39 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Did he draft one? Yup. He drafted more than one, in fact. Did I not already present you with a Timmins-drafted D corps that included 3 shutdown defensemen?
In 2008, you think that not drafting a single DMan is the best that he could do?

In 2009, you think that Mac Bennett was the best that he could do?

If you do, then no need to discuss the issue any longer.

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06-06-2013, 04:47 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Ezpz View Post
O'Byrne, Fischer, Gleed, Valentenko, Stejskal and McDonagh were all drafted. It's not as if we stopped drafting shutdown D. O'Byrne wasn't very good but was never given a chance here. Fischer busted. Valentenko was tossed into the Gomez deal for no reason and subsequently was never given a chance in New York because of xenophoboarella.

Timmins can't predict retarded GM syndrome trading all our depth when he drafts. He also can't be expected to be as effective when he goes three years without a second rounder/first rounder. I'm not understanding how you can cry when we don't buy at the deadline then cry that we don't have depth. We don't have depth because we bought at the deadline/middle of the season in 2008/9/10.
I find it mildly amusing that you bring up Fischer as a positive. Same with Gleed and Stejskal.

I'm surprised that you did not bring up Philippe Paquet.

Valentenko was a head case who signed a KHL contract while on the Hamilton roster.

I will give you O'Byrne...........who was drafted in 2003. We had gaping holes in the 2008/2009 draft regarding shut down DMen.

McDonagh is a PMD.

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