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Is Henrik Lundqvist An HOFer?

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06-04-2013, 05:38 PM
  #251
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I disagree, the position has gotten refined and has gotten better. Shooters have gotten better too. A ridiculous number of dmen can shoot the puck at high speeds now. But that's not my point. The point is that the competition for goaltending has gotten better and a team's stability is less. If Patrick Roy played today then do you think he would've had the same amount of hardware? No because it would be a cap era meaning that the Colorado Avalanche would not be as good. Even if they had that all-star team of 2001, they wouldn't be able to maintain it and win their division 10 years in a row or whatever it was. Same with Martin Brodeur and the Devils. So how is a goalie expected to bring in the amount of hardware needed or maintain a good save %/GAA year in and out if his team is great for a couple years then average then maybe good again and then poor? The first sign that he plays bad and if he's not an established goalie then most teams have a relatively rich pipeline of other guys ready to go. Of course I'm not saying that today is notably better than 10 or 15 years ago but they are better than decades ago in terms of the amount of competition. O6 goalies didn't even have to worry about back-ups. Who knows if Charlie Hodge had played in a 12 team league and gotten time in ahead of Plante then he could've put up great stats and won a few trophies. Yet somehow there's a good number of goalies that have gotten in from those past decades but all of a sudden they aren't good enough? I don't buy it.....you see the saves that these guys are capable of making night in and out and the best from this group (Lundqvist included) have to get consideration.

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06-04-2013, 07:40 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Why would that look weird?

Even if Giacomin retired after 8 seasons he would have 2 first team and 3 second team all-star selection and one Vezina.

Lundqvist has one Vezina and one all-star selection.
Context is important here, Eddie didn't have nearly the competition that Henrik does.

Part of that is playing in a 30 team league with great goalies form Europe and the US, something Eddie never had to deal with.

It's not like Eddie smokes Henrik out of the water with that playoff resume either.

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06-04-2013, 07:43 PM
  #253
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If he puts up the same numbers for the rest of his career, I think he'd have a shot. If he gets a Cup, he'd be an absolute lock.

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06-04-2013, 07:45 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Since the lockout, a period of 8 years, he has been the best goalie in the world for that time period, or at the very least in the top 3 PERIOD.

How many goalies in the HHOF can say that? Not all of them I bet and it is in a fully integrated 30 team NHL were it's going to be harder to stand out year in year out, especially with the Salary Cap.

Anyone saying he needs any more than 1 or more years at this level or close to it are seriously setting a different standard for the HHOF for Henrik than for players in the past.

Even if the King were done it would look pretty weird to have Giacomin in and Lundqvist out.
Tim Thomas accomplished much more than Lundqvist in that time frame.

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06-04-2013, 07:47 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
If he puts up the same numbers for the rest of his career, I think he'd have a shot. If he gets a Cup, he'd be an absolute lock.
Do you mean if he plays for one or tow more years like this he has a shot, or 5?

Anything more than 2 is getting into lock territory, as he is really close right now if not already.

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06-04-2013, 07:50 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Do you mean if he plays for one or tow more years like this he has a shot, or 5?

Anything more than 2 is getting into lock territory, as he is really close right now if not already.
I'd say about 5. I don't think I'd vote in a goalie who only played until he was 33-ish with his numbers and no Cup. His numbers are great, but he didn't really play for that long.

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06-04-2013, 07:50 PM
  #257
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Tim Thomas accomplished much more than Lundqvist in that time frame.
Sure including 3 meh seasons and a much smaller sample.

Heck even his playoff resume isn't as great as one would think over Henrik's given that SC run.

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06-04-2013, 10:20 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
I'd say about 5. I don't think I'd vote in a goalie who only played until he was 33-ish with his numbers and no Cup. His numbers are great, but he didn't really play for that long.
Poor argument. Winning a cup and not winning a cup should not be the difference for Lundqvist as he's been a top 3-4 goalie in the league for a lengthy amount of time. Glenn Hall only won one cup but he was a fairly consistent goalie....are you saying that he should not be in the HOF if he had not won that cup and there's a good chance he would not have had he played in an era of 30 teams intead of 6. He also won three Vezinas....might only have been one or two had he played in a 30 team era. Tony Esposito never won a cup but he's one of the best goalies of all-time. And the best comparison is Eddie Giacomin....Lundqvist will probably surpass the number of Vezina's Giacomin has this year.

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06-04-2013, 10:30 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Kloparren View Post
Poor argument. Winning a cup and not winning a cup should not be the difference for Lundqvist as he's been a top 3-4 goalie in the league for a lengthy amount of time. Glenn Hall only won one cup but he was a fairly consistent goalie....are you saying that he should not be in the HOF if he had not won that cup and there's a good chance he would not have had he played in an era of 30 teams intead of 6. He also won three Vezinas....might only have been one or two had he played in a 30 team era. Tony Esposito never won a cup but he's one of the best goalies of all-time. And the best comparison is Eddie Giacomin....Lundqvist will probably surpass the number of Vezina's Giacomin has this year.
Considering only one goalie without a Cup is in the HHOF, I do think a Cup matters.

Edit - Apparently I'm incorrect.


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06-04-2013, 11:36 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
I'd say about 5. I don't think I'd vote in a goalie who only played until he was 33-ish with his numbers and no Cup. His numbers are great, but he didn't really play for that long.
5 more years, seriously?

Sure some guys have played longer, but how many have played at his elite level for 8 years or more?

Then I guess you need to take some guys out of your version of the HHOF then.

Even with the lockout shortened season Henrik is 35th all time in wins, 5 more more than Bernie Parent. i know there are more GP now and shoot wins too but it's still really impressive for only 8 years.

Also the no SC thing in a 30 team league is misguided IMO, as many of the guys in the HHOF have their SC's with lesser resumes in smaller leagues, where it's more likely to win a SC than in a much larger one.

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06-04-2013, 11:42 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
Considering only one goalie without a Cup is in the HHOF, I do think a Cup matters.

Edit - Apparently I'm incorrect.
Like Phil you are kinda right the HHOF does tend to over empathize SC's but I wonder how their position will change in a 30 team league going forward this Century?

They certainly can't keep treating the SC expectation like it was a 6 team league can they?

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06-05-2013, 12:04 AM
  #262
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so we all agree lundqvist is well on his way.

but if he retired today? well vachon isn't in with two hart nominations (2nd and 3rd), two retro vezina runner-ups (i.e., 2 second team all-stars), and two more top five finishes (both 4th). plus one cup that we can give him credit for (2 total, but the other one shouldn't count), and he was the starter on the '76 canada cup.

lundqvist has one vezina/first team all-star, one olympic gold, and that's it.

lundqvist's top five vezina/all-star finishes: 3/3, 3/7, 3/4, 4/5, 1/1. it's very good; that's top five in six of eight years (including another top three this year). but two of those 3rd place vezina finishes were very weak ones. here's what i wrote about his second and third vezina nominations in the HOH goalie thread:

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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i don't know about that, TDDM. they look like two of the least meaningful third place vezina finishes to me--


2007

VEZINA: Pts. 1st-2nd-3rd
1. Martin Brodeur, N.J. 122 (16-14-0)
2. Roberto Luongo, VAN 116 (14-15-1)
3. Miikka Kiprusoff, CGY 7 (0-0-7)
Henrik Lundqvist, NYR 7 (0-0-7)
5. Dominik Hasek, DET 5 (0-0-5)
6. Niklas Backstrom, MIN 4 (0-1-1)
7. Ryan Miller, BUF 4 (0-0-4)
8. Rick DiPietro, NYI 2 (0-0-2)
J-S Giguere, ANA 2 (0-0-2)
10. Chris Mason, NSH 1 (0-0-1)

GOALTENDER: Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd) Career All-Star Selections
1. MARTIN BRODEUR, N.J. 607 (91-50-2) 3 First Team, 3 Second Team
2. Roberto Luongo, VAN 521 (52-86-3) 0 First Team, 2 Second Team
3. Dominik Hasek, DET 58 (0-3-49)
4. Miikka Kiprusoff, CGY 25 (0-2-19)
5. Niklas Backstrom, MIN 23 (0-0-23)
6. Ryan Miller, BUF 17 (0-0-17)
7. Henrik Lundqvist, NYR 13 (0-0-13)
8. Marty Turco, DAL 10 (0-1-7)
9. J.S. Giguere, ANA 7 (0-1-4)
10. Rick DiPietro, NYI 4 (0-0-4)
11. Ed Belfour, FLA 1 (0-0-1)
Cristobal Huet, MTL 1 (0-0-1)


2008

VEZINA: Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd)
1. Martin Brodeur, N.J. 113 {15-12-2}
2. Evgeni Nabokov, S.J. 106 {13-13-2}
3. Henrik Lundqvist. NYR 13 {1-0-8)
4. J.S. Giguere, ANA 11 {0-1-8)
5. Miikka Kiprusoff, CGY 7 {1-0-2)
6. Niklas Backstrom, MIN 6 (0-2-0)
7. Roberto Luongo, VAN 5 (0-1-2)
8. Cristobal Huet, WSH 4 (0-1-1)
9. Carey Price, MTL 2 (0-0-2)
Tim Thomas, BOS 2 (0-0-2)
11. Chris Osgood, DET 1 (0-0-1)

GOALTENDER: Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd)
1. EVGENI NABOKOV, S.J. 523 (71-55-3)
2. Martin Brodeur, N.J. 475 (56-61-12)
3. J.S. Giguere, ANA 82 (3-8-43)
4. Henrik Lundqvist, NYR 74 (1-6-51)
5. Roberto Luongo, VAN 12 (1-1-4)
6. Miikka Kiprusoff, CGY 11 (0-1-8)
7. Chris Osgood, DET 9 (1-1-1)
8. Pascal Leclaire, CBJ 4 (0-0-4)
9. Dan Ellis, NSH 3 (0-0-3)
10. Tim Thomas, BOS 2 (0-0-2)
11. Niklas Backstrom, MIN 1 (0-0-1)
Ty Conklin, PIT 1 (0-0-1)

my point isn't that he hasn't been an elite goalie his entire career (which he has been), just that the "he has three vezina nominations in his first three years-- unprecedented-- HHOF" talk doesn't look nearly as strong when you look at the voting.
vachon had a very steady career with a five year peak that included four top fives and two hart nominations. lundqvist has similar consistency but one less hart nom and without the cup. so if vachon isn't in, and i think he has the slightly better resume at this point, then neither should henrik quite yet.

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06-05-2013, 07:07 AM
  #263
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Sure including 3 meh seasons and a much smaller sample.

Heck even his playoff resume isn't as great as one would think over Henrik's given that SC run.
There's no doubt Lundqvist was better than Thomas between the lockouts. Lundqvist has only helped his team. Thomas was good after Julien got there and was one of the league's worst goalies before that. Even throughout the one playoffs he's had (which now makes him a playoff goalie apparently) he routinely put the Bruins behind the 8-ball with poor goals against - both of time and quality.

I was hoping that we'd see how these goalie "spikes" can happen now that we've seen it with Elliott and Anderson and whoever it will be next year, but evidently it's still a random numbers grab to greatness...

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06-05-2013, 07:27 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
There's no doubt Lundqvist was better than Thomas between the lockouts. Lundqvist has only helped his team. Thomas was good after Julien got there and was one of the league's worst goalies before that. Even throughout the one playoffs he's had (which now makes him a playoff goalie apparently) he routinely put the Bruins behind the 8-ball with poor goals against - both of time and quality.
You could literally say that about any goalie, ever.

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06-05-2013, 09:04 AM
  #265
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There's no doubt Lundqvist was better than Thomas between the lockouts.
There sure seems to be doubt on that one.

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06-05-2013, 09:16 AM
  #266
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I was hoping that we'd see how these goalie "spikes" can happen now that we've seen it with Elliott and Anderson and whoever it will be next year, but evidently it's still a random numbers grab to greatness...
Not to forget Steve Mason, or Mike Smith, or every goalie on a Tippett|Hitchcock kind of team. Goalie's such a team dependant position. Thomas is a good goalie but in 11 he played behind arguably the best defenseman and the best defensive forward in the league, on a really deep and defensively well coached team, and also in the finals against an injury depleted opponent. Not saying he didn't deserve that Smythe, but he had a lot of help from his teammates, a lot, and so had Quick last year, you gotta put things into context. It wasn't like he stood on his head juggling two beach balls, five squirrels and a three pair of scissors and won the Cup with the Edmonton Oilers.

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06-05-2013, 01:49 PM
  #267
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Not to forget Steve Mason, or Mike Smith, or every goalie on a Tippett|Hitchcock kind of team. Goalie's such a team dependant position. Thomas is a good goalie but in 11 he played behind arguably the best defenseman and the best defensive forward in the league, on a really deep and defensively well coached team, and also in the finals against an injury depleted opponent. Not saying he didn't deserve that Smythe, but he had a lot of help from his teammates, a lot, and so had Quick last year, you gotta put things into context. It wasn't like he stood on his head juggling two beach balls, five squirrels and a three pair of scissors and won the Cup with the Edmonton Oilers.
yeah but it's not like lundqvist hasn't had all five guys on the ice lying down skate-to-helmet to form a shot blocking barricade in front of his crease. all successful goalies have help.

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06-05-2013, 02:44 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
yeah but it's not like lundqvist hasn't had all five guys on the ice lying down skate-to-helmet to form a shot blocking barricade in front of his crease. all successful goalies have help.
The difference is that was one of the worst defensive systems of all time.

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06-05-2013, 05:55 PM
  #269
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There's no doubt Lundqvist was better than Thomas between the lockouts. Lundqvist has only helped his team. Thomas was good after Julien got there and was one of the league's worst goalies before that. Even throughout the one playoffs he's had (which now makes him a playoff goalie apparently) he routinely put the Bruins behind the 8-ball with poor goals against - both of time and quality.

I was hoping that we'd see how these goalie "spikes" can happen now that we've seen it with Elliott and Anderson and whoever it will be next year, but evidently it's still a random numbers grab to greatness...
I may be wrong, but, I don't think Elliott or Anderson won any Vezina Trophies or All-Star berths or Conn Smythe's.

However, Thomas has (a couple even twice).

As for Thomas being one of the worst goalies before Julien, I would say any goalie playing those 2 seasons for the Bruins would have been one of the worst goalies in the league. In the Dale Lewis season of 06-07, Chara was a -21 and Bergeron was a -28. Thomas having 30 wins with that team was fairly miraculous.

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06-06-2013, 10:21 AM
  #270
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yeah but it's not like lundqvist hasn't had all five guys on the ice lying down skate-to-helmet to form a shot blocking barricade in front of his crease. all successful goalies have help.
Yeah, I'm not saying Lundqvist hasn't played behind a good defensive corps in the last few years, or on a good team, he has, but when he was a top three kind of goalie in his first three years with the Rangers the defense and the team was mediocre. He's shown he can be a top goalie on different kind of teams. And, the conservative "collapse in your goalies knees" kind of defense isn't always the most effective one. It allows the opposition quite a lot of puck possession and shots. Look, I'm not even a Lundqvist fan, he's probably not the greatest sportsman in our time, but his record is alright. I don't think he's a HOFer right now, he needs to win at least one more Vezina or something.

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06-06-2013, 10:49 AM
  #271
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You could literally say that about any goalie, ever.
Negative, especially not in the context of what we're talking about. Literally, an entire career perception is hinged on a single playoff run. A pretty unremarkable one at that. Well, it was remarkable for its pronounced ups and downs. That's why I maintain that it's dangerous territory to start anointing players after two, non-consecutive (no less) seasons of play. It was a slippery slope then and shortly thereafter my fears were confirmed.

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06-06-2013, 11:10 AM
  #272
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I may be wrong, but, I don't think Elliott or Anderson won any Vezina Trophies or All-Star berths or Conn Smythe's.

However, Thomas has (a couple even twice).

As for Thomas being one of the worst goalies before Julien, I would say any goalie playing those 2 seasons for the Bruins would have been one of the worst goalies in the league. In the Dale Lewis season of 06-07, Chara was a -21 and Bergeron was a -28. Thomas having 30 wins with that team was fairly miraculous.
Right. Elliott and Anderson are climbing out of the "journeyman" category and into the "HHOFer" category like Thomas. This needs time.

Thomas only gets a "free pass" in retrospect, if they would have successfully traded Thomas for Simon Gagne like there was discussion at the time, those bad seasons define his career. Instead, Boston/Julien keep him and it changes the perception. He was just bad, flat out terrible, and we all knew it.

Elliott had his "amazing" season and now he gets a year off, and if St. Louis/Hitchcock can lock things up again, I'm sure one of Elliott or Halak will have another "amazing" season. Anderson should get a "year off" too, maybe young Robin Lehner will lead the league in GAA and save pct. and then Anderson will come back and do the same thing the next season.

We're just willfully not seeing the forest through the trees right now to reverse justify previous positions/beliefs...

Thomas' one playoffs: 1.98 / .940 save pct.
Rask's one playoffs so far: 1.85 / .940 save pct.

And once again, the goalie behind one of the better (or best) defensive team has the most saves in the playoffs on the most shots against. It's just modern defending 101 all over again...it's happening all over again. Of course, I hope this series goes seven.

And I love Rask, but he's been a little up and down in these playoffs, but has gotten stronger as the playoffs goes on. What he's done in the series vs. Pittsburgh is simply amazing though.

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06-06-2013, 11:14 AM
  #273
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In terms of percentiles, is Lundqvist even one of the best goalies of his generation? That seems to be the norm for getting HHOF status.

Also, I realize that with more competition it is harder than ever to achieve it, but you have to think a goalie at least needs a Cup and a Vezina to be considered.

On the other hand,

Considering that being the "best goaltender in the league" use to mean you were in the top 17%, then 8%, 5.5%, then 4.7%, and now 3.3% of the league (assuming one goalie/team). Then consider that that is only looking at the % vs. the NHL, not the % vs. the hockey talent pool.

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06-06-2013, 12:09 PM
  #274
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Negative, especially not in the context of what we're talking about. Literally, an entire career perception is hinged on a single playoff run. A pretty unremarkable one at that. Well, it was remarkable for its pronounced ups and downs. That's why I maintain that it's dangerous territory to start anointing players after two, non-consecutive (no less) seasons of play. It was a slippery slope then and shortly thereafter my fears were confirmed.
The two Vezina's kind of help too... And the fact that he got hip surgery after his down year in 2010 and came back with a Vezina/Smythe/Cup.

And Lundqvist shouldn't be in the Hall unless he starts carrying his dominance into the playoffs. He shouldn't even have won the Vezina last season, as there was basically no way he maintains his SV% with Quick's games played.

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06-06-2013, 02:17 PM
  #275
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The two Vezina's kind of help too... And the fact that he got hip surgery after his down year in 2010 and came back with a Vezina/Smythe/Cup.

And Lundqvist shouldn't be in the Hall unless he starts carrying his dominance into the playoffs. He shouldn't even have won the Vezina last season, as there was basically no way he maintains his SV% with Quick's games played.
He does carry it to the playoffs. If you watch Ranger games, rs or po, you see that he drags the team as far as they go. Without him we would probably have made the playoffs once since the lockout. And yes he deserved the Vezina last year. He was better than Quick. Also how can you be for sure he would not have kept his sv% up. For all we know it could have been higher if he played the same amount of games.

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