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Would the Habs benefit from a Heavyweight enforcer? Part 3

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Old
06-06-2013, 03:40 PM
  #926
JPGoHabsGo
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If theres one thing I dont like about our fanbases want for an enforcer its that every time an example of why we need one its always an example from a Boston game.


We shouldn't have to compete with JUST boston, thats a recipe for disaster if MB is thinking I need an enforcer because of Boston, how will I beat boston this year?


That being said, we are also playing against Buffalo more often. And our division (and conference) has really seemed to become an arms race so Id be fine with picking up a fighter

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06-06-2013, 04:13 PM
  #927
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
It's statements like that that get everybody riled up and a lot of useless posts coming back.

Now the habs surely don't have the biggest or baddest team in the NHL but saying they have NO SIZE or NO TEAM TOUGHNESS is beyond ridiculous. Like saying it will rain for eternity because I wake up one morning and it's a downpour.

Having no size would mean everybody on the roster is below 6' and 200lbs. Where there are maybe 6 or 7 players that fit this description.

Last time I checked Pacioretty Bourque Eller Emelin Tinordi Drewiske Blunden Moen were all clearly above 6' and 200lbs.

No doubt we could use a bit more size, but it's hardly an epidemic. With a healthy lineup nobody was outmuscling or overpowering us in any games I can recall. The games we lost were because we played poorly or the other team played well, not because the Habs were "too small".

I'm not suggesting adding another big d-man or a bit more beef to the 3rd or 4th line is not a bad idea, but let's not get carried away!

In terms of team toughness I can list a lot of examples of guys coming to the defense of teammates, some won the fights others lost them, but if you know the definition of "team toughness" it's standing up for yourself and your teammates even if you may lose the fight.

We have guys that can play and can fight in Prust White Moen Bourque Bouillon plus Tinordi on the way. No doubt we could use a designated "enforcer" against certain teams at 800-900k to play 30-50 games a year. Maybe get Moen back to being Travis Moen and not Mathieu Darche.

The size/fighting/toughness issue isn't as big as most on here try to paint it.
How about though the Habs have team toughness majority of NHL team have more size/fighting/toughness and it is one of the easiest issues to fix?

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06-06-2013, 04:17 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
How about though the Habs have team toughness majority of NHL team have more size/fighting/toughness and it is one of the easiest issues to fix?
That would be a much more mature and reasonable statement, clearly.

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06-06-2013, 04:26 PM
  #929
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Pierre-Cédric Labrie might be someone to look at now that Bordeleau is off the table.

- He's still fairly young (unlikely to pull a Laraque and be washed up)

- Above average fighter (not quite heavyweight caliber but has history of handling himself well: http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/FightCard.aspx?P=15707)

- Has a little scoring touch (see AHL and junior numbers and his corsi last season)

- Throws his weight around (averaged over 2 hits / game last 2 seasons)

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06-06-2013, 04:27 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
How about though the Habs have team toughness majority of NHL team have more size/fighting/toughness and it is one of the easiest issues to fix?
We were tied for 10th most fights last season.

If the problem is that our small guys can't score against big defenceman, then the average height/weight doesn't even matter. What matters is the number of small players in the top-9. Getting a couple 6'8 guys to play on the 4th line would make us a bigger team, but it wouldn't help DD outmuscle anyone.

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06-06-2013, 04:35 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Pierre-Cédric Labrie might be someone to look at now that Bordeleau is off the table.

- He's still fairly young (unlikely to pull a Laraque and be washed up)

- Above average fighter (not quite heavyweight caliber but has history of handling himself well: http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/FightCard.aspx?P=15707)

- Has a little scoring touch (see AHL and junior numbers and his corsi last season)

- Throws his weight around (averaged over 2 hits / game last 2 seasons)
hope not.

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06-06-2013, 04:36 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
We were tied for 10th most fights last season.

If the problem is that our small guys can't score against big defenceman, then the average height/weight doesn't even matter. What matters is the number of small players in the top-9. Getting a couple 6'8 guys to play on the 4th line would make us a bigger team, but it wouldn't help DD outmuscle anyone.
Led the league in most lost fights (subjective voting but just throwing it out there: http://dropyourgloves.com/fights/Lea...=1&Season=2013).

I'm not sure anyone is advocating the only issue wrong is the lack of a goon. My opinion is adding a 'good' goon would improve the Habs one step. Will it make the Habs a contender? Probable not. I view team improvement as an incremental process rather than just waiting on one major fix all move.

I'm against the idea of playing a goon top 6 or big minutes, but having one on the 23 man roster? I fail to see the issue/rationale to argue against it.

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06-06-2013, 04:40 PM
  #933
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hope not.
He's not that bad:



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06-06-2013, 04:53 PM
  #934
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He's not that bad:
its better than nothing, but.........not really the answer imo

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06-06-2013, 04:54 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
He's not that bad:


Maybe PK will offer up his # 76 to Labrie if we sign him.

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06-06-2013, 04:55 PM
  #936
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
No, you are in denial like previous management. This team is small down the middle, and plays small. This is a fact. 6' 180lb wingers who don't go into the corners aren't helping a team that is already small and lacking physical play.



... and last time I checked, Blunden and Drewiske weren't making this team any time soon. Tinordi isn't big, he's tall, he's built like Patrick Traverse still. Pacioretty doesn't play a physical game, it isn't his style and Bourque is 50/50 on how he plays. Emelin too the role of the only physical dman on this team, and look what happened? He's going out of his way to make hits, because nobody else is willing, or capbable of in the defensive zone.



Well there lies the irony, doesn't it? This team isn't big enough to even stay healthy, so how would we ever know? My goodness, the Sens ran over us at every chance, how was that series alone not yet another sign how pathetic this team matches up in a 7 game series? You think Emelin would have come in and made the difference? I think not.



Wrong, and now you sound like you are making excuses for management. That's like saying physical play isn't part of the game. Other teams focus on our lack of size, and physical play, and it works 99% of the time. I don't care about the regular season, it isn't a gauge of how this team should be judged. When it comes down to the post season this team isn't built to go past the first round.



Oh, but why bother at all if it has such little impact on the game? Next year when young Galchenyuk gets beaten into the ice, and our only response is 'Lets get them on the Power Play Boys!' , don't come crying over here.



No, team toughness has more to do with rolling out an assembly of players at any given time to keep the other team honest, or change the pace/style of play. Are you kidding me right now? Team toughness isn't standing up to the other team and getting a beat down in the process, that's humiliating. Team Toughness is looking up and down your bench and thinking 'If this game gets out of hand, if the even think about taking liberties with our boys, we can counter'. The players think the exact same thing when they look down the bench, its a confidence builder knowing you have the toughness, size and grit to handle and response most teams can throw at you.

Montreal had this in 93, they lost it shortly after.



Prust is a winner, but don't lump anyone else in there that you mentioned. Moen used to be that player, those days are gone, and Tinordi can't fight yet.



Its everything that is wrong with this team, and that is an undeniable fact in my mind. If you think these talented rookies will develop without more players like Prust patrolling the lines, you are out to lunch. Or did you think there was another reason Prust was skating with the kids? lol.
I'm not going to waste any more time on this. You have your "pie in the sky" warped view on things and won't listen to any kind of logic.

What 6' 180lbs winger are you talking about? The Habs don't even have a single 6' 180lbs winger...and Drewiske was on the team after they traded for him, Blinden was most of the season.

Not sure what being big had to do with the habs injuries, most of the injured,Emelin Price Prust White Pacioretty Eller were big guys and Gionta had some freak injury that had nothing to do with getting hit...but don't let the facts get in your way.

I'm all for adding an enforcer(Orr maybe?) and a physical winger and big stay at home d-man in the UFA market, just don;t see an all out roster turnover.


Last edited by Monctonscout: 06-06-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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06-06-2013, 04:59 PM
  #937
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
We were tied for 10th most fights last season.

If the problem is that our small guys can't score against big defenceman, then the average height/weight doesn't even matter. What matters is the number of small players in the top-9. Getting a couple 6'8 guys to play on the 4th line would make us a bigger team, but it wouldn't help DD outmuscle anyone.
The size up front will partially fix itself, at some point Gionta will be gone or at least palying on the 3rd line and DD will probably be traded(1-2 years) once Eller and Galchenyuk grow into bigger roles.

We could use another big top 6 winger, but that can be added by trade or UFA once the other pieces are in place.

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06-06-2013, 05:08 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Led the league in most lost fights (subjective voting but just throwing it out there: http://dropyourgloves.com/fights/Lea...=1&Season=2013).

I'm not sure anyone is advocating the only issue wrong is the lack of a goon. My opinion is adding a 'good' goon would improve the Habs one step. Will it make the Habs a contender? Probable not. I view team improvement as an incremental process rather than just waiting on one major fix all move.

I'm against the idea of playing a goon top 6 or big minutes, but having one on the 23 man roster? I fail to see the issue/rationale to argue against it.
Well there are some who've argued that our lack of an enforcer is why we lost against Ottawa and that every single player on the Habs would play better knowing there was an enforcer on the team.

But as to your point. The problem with a guy who can only fight and do nothing else is how we use our 4th line. They were given a fairly significant defensive assignment last season. Most enforcers start in the offensive zone 60% or more of the time, whereas our 4th line was starting only 30% or so in the offensive zone. They would also play a lot more minutes than enforcers are able to. This allowed us to shelter the Desharnais and Galchenyuk lines without having to hurt Plekanec.

Adding another player that needs to be sheltered is a handicap, is it insurmountable, no but is winning a few more fights really worth it.

I'm also not sure if winning/losing a fight really has much impact. There have been several studies done that showed there was a minor uptick in goals scored in the 5 or 10min following a fight but who won the fight had no impact on who actually scored.

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06-06-2013, 05:24 PM
  #939
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I'm not going to waste any more time on this. You have your "pie in the sky" warped view on things and won't listen to any kind of logic.

What 6' 180lbs winger are you talking about? The Habs don't even have a single 6' 180lbs winger...and Drewiske was on the team after they traded for him, Blinden was most of the season.
You brought up Drewiske and Blunden, but don't let those facts get in the way....

Quote:
Not sure what being big had to do with the habs injuries, most of the injured,Emelin Price Prust White Pacioretty Eller were big guys and Gionta had some freak injury that had nothing to do with getting hit...but don't let the facts get in your way.
If you can't see how being a small, war down, physically punished team heading into the playoffs, where things only get worse, then it's you who has the 'warped view on things'. We aren't a physical team, its the one downfall that has plagued the club since the cup run, when we decided to abandon every single attribute that made the team successful.

Quote:
I'm all for adding an enforcer(Orr maybe?) and a physical winger and big stay at home d-man in the UFA market, just don;t see an all out roster turnover.
...and I'm not asking for a bunch of goons, or a roster turnover, just some big physical players that can last through the first round of the playoffs.

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06-06-2013, 05:25 PM
  #940
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We really messed up not trading for Kassian. Could have had him for the pick we gave up for Drewiskie.

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06-06-2013, 05:31 PM
  #941
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Well there are some who've argued that our lack of an enforcer is why we lost against Ottawa and that every single player on the Habs would play better knowing there was an enforcer on the team.

But as to your point. The problem with a guy who can only fight and do nothing else is how we use our 4th line. They were given a fairly significant defensive assignment last season. Most enforcers start in the offensive zone 60% or more of the time, whereas our 4th line was starting only 30% or so in the offensive zone. They would also play a lot more minutes than enforcers are able to. This allowed us to shelter the Desharnais and Galchenyuk lines without having to hurt Plekanec.

Adding another player that needs to be sheltered is a handicap, is it insurmountable, no but is winning a few more fights really worth it.

I'm also not sure if winning/losing a fight really has much impact. There have been several studies done that showed there was a minor uptick in goals scored in the 5 or 10min following a fight but who won the fight had no impact on who actually scored.
Until Chicago falters and becomes a losing organization, their use of Bollig makes this post irrelevant and simply your opinion that has no basis in reality. Sorry.

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06-06-2013, 05:37 PM
  #942
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You brought up Drewiske and Blunden, but don't let those facts get in the way....



If you can't see how being a small, war down, physically punished team heading into the playoffs, where things only get worse, then it's you who has the 'warped view on things'. We aren't a physical team, its the one downfall that has plagued the club since the cup run, when we decided to abandon every single attribute that made the team successful.



...and I'm not asking for a bunch of goons, or a roster turnover, just some big physical players that can last through the first round of the playoffs.
Drewiske and Blunden were on the team this year, how is that not a fact?

You keep bringing up how the small players get run down heading into the playoffs yet they are not the ones who got hurt, what kind of ridiculous logic is that?

Most of the guys that got hurt are definitely not small. Players of all shapes and sizes get hurt in the NHL, injuries don't discriminate on size.

I agree the team needs to be more physical, but you still have to build a team that plays to your strengths, not trying to beat other teams as their own game.

Again, on your last point, our biggest players, not the small ones, were the ones that "didn't make it through the 1st round". You're talking out your a$$.

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06-06-2013, 05:40 PM
  #943
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Well there are some who've argued that our lack of an enforcer is why we lost against Ottawa and that every single player on the Habs would play better knowing there was an enforcer on the team.

But as to your point. The problem with a guy who can only fight and do nothing else is how we use our 4th line. They were given a fairly significant defensive assignment last season. Most enforcers start in the offensive zone 60% or more of the time, whereas our 4th line was starting only 30% or so in the offensive zone. They would also play a lot more minutes than enforcers are able to. This allowed us to shelter the Desharnais and Galchenyuk lines without having to hurt Plekanec.

Adding another player that needs to be sheltered is a handicap, is it insurmountable, no but is winning a few more fights really worth it.

I'm also not sure if winning/losing a fight really has much impact. There have been several studies done that showed there was a minor uptick in goals scored in the 5 or 10min following a fight but who won the fight had no impact on who actually scored.
This is accurate if the icetime were more equal across the board. Goons don't usually play the entire season nor do they get a regular shift when they play, ~10 shifts/game. Not all these shifts would be a 'zone start'. In reality, the zone start % for goons is based on low amount of total starts.

Colton Orr averaged 1.98 O-zone starts/game
Frazer McLaren averaged 2.06 O-one starts/game

Compare this to the Habs regular 4th liner in White and top shelter requirement in Desharnais:

David Desharnais averaged 5.00 O-zone/game
Ryan White averaged 1.25 O-zone starts/game

Essentially, there will be a need to share one extra non-ozone start/game among 3 other lines if we're to keep the same ratios - which wouldn't be necessary if DD somehow improves a little.

The idea is not merely a moral fight victory but giving the team the mindset that they can match their opposition in every aspect. Whenever a team faces the Habs, their message of what to do to beat the Habs is always to run them. Adding a goon on the Habs is just one little step to evening the playing field.

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06-06-2013, 05:59 PM
  #944
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This is accurate if the icetime were more equal across the board. Goons don't usually play the entire season nor do they get a regular shift when they play, ~10 shifts/game. Not all these shifts would be a 'zone start'. In reality, the zone start % for goons is based on low amount of total starts.

Colton Orr averaged 1.98 O-zone starts/game
Frazer McLaren averaged 2.06 O-one starts/game

Compare this to the Habs regular 4th liner in White and top shelter requirement in Desharnais:

David Desharnais averaged 5.00 O-zone/game
Ryan White averaged 1.25 O-zone starts/game

Essentially, there will be a need to share one extra non-ozone start/game among 3 other lines if we're to keep the same ratios - which wouldn't be necessary if DD somehow improves a little.

The idea is not merely a moral fight victory but giving the team the mindset that they can match their opposition in every aspect. Whenever a team faces the Habs, their message of what to do to beat the Habs is always to run them. Adding a goon on the Habs is just one little step to evening the playing field.
you make too much sence. Stop it

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06-06-2013, 07:03 PM
  #945
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
This is accurate if the icetime were more equal across the board. Goons don't usually play the entire season nor do they get a regular shift when they play, ~10 shifts/game. Not all these shifts would be a 'zone start'. In reality, the zone start % for goons is based on low amount of total starts.

Colton Orr averaged 1.98 O-zone starts/game
Frazer McLaren averaged 2.06 O-one starts/game

Compare this to the Habs regular 4th liner in White and top shelter requirement in Desharnais:

David Desharnais averaged 5.00 O-zone/game
Ryan White averaged 1.25 O-zone starts/game

Essentially, there will be a need to share one extra non-ozone start/game among 3 other lines if we're to keep the same ratios - which wouldn't be necessary if DD somehow improves a little.
Well an extra O-zone faceoff a game probably doesn't seem like a lot, but it will add up over the course of the season. But you also need to look at number of D-zone starts because you are not just taking away an offensive opportunity from Desharnais you are going to give someone else a defensive one as well.

It would also be interesting to see who they go up against for those faceoffs. Therrien didn't seem afraid of starting our 4th line against opponents top lines, whereas I'm sure guys like Orr, their minutes are more carefully managed to only go out against other teams bottom lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
The idea is not merely a moral fight victory but giving the team the mindset that they can match their opposition in every aspect. Whenever a team faces the Habs, their message of what to do to beat the Habs is always to run them. Adding a goon on the Habs is just one little step to evening the playing field.
Well as you said the winner is often subjective. It wouldn't surprise me if most of the time both teams felt like they won the fight. And in the ones that are decisive they probably think it's great that the smaller guy showed the big guy they won't back down.

As for the opponents game plan. What do you think Boston's game plan is against Pittsburgh? Hit their star players. Whats their game plane against Toronto? Hit their star players. Whats will be their game plan if they go to the finals? Hit the other teams star players. Simply put every team tries to do the same thing against high skill players. We could have 10 enforcers on the team and the opponents game plan would still be play Markov & Subban as hard as you can.

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06-06-2013, 07:33 PM
  #946
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We need a little bit of everything. We need skill and a goon that can play. We need centers that are not afraid of the center of the ice. Players that are willing to crush the net.

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06-06-2013, 08:47 PM
  #947
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Until Chicago falters and becomes a losing organization, their use of Bollig makes this post irrelevant and simply your opinion that has no basis in reality. Sorry.
Why is that? At the end of the day the most important thing is your top players. There's a reason they say in order to win your best players need to be your best players, it's because you're 4th liners rarely make a difference good or bad. I'd rather the few times they make a difference that there's a better chance that it's a positive.

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