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Montreal Canadiens Drafting Hit Rate (under Trevor Timmins)

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Old
06-06-2013, 04:55 PM
  #251
Watsatheo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I find it mildly amusing that you bring up Fischer as a positive. Same with Gleed and Stejskal.

I'm surprised that you did not bring up Philippe Paquet.

Valentenko was a head case who signed a KHL contract while on the Hamilton roster.

I will give you O'Byrne...........who was drafted in 2003. We had gaping holes in the 2008/2009 draft regarding shut down DMen.

McDonagh is a PMD.
If you think McDonagh is a PMD you need to give your examples of the leagues top 10 Shutdown D.

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06-06-2013, 04:55 PM
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I find it mildly amusing that you bring up Fischer as a positive. Same with Gleed and Stejskal.

I'm surprised that you did not bring up Philippe Paquet.

Valentenko was a head case who signed a KHL contract while on the Hamilton roster.

I will give you O'Byrne...........who was drafted in 2003. We had gaping holes in the 2008/2009 draft regarding shut down DMen.

McDonagh is a PMD.
McDonagh is a two way defenseman.

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06-06-2013, 05:02 PM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I find it mildly amusing that you bring up Fischer as a positive. Same with Gleed and Stejskal.

I'm surprised that you did not bring up Philippe Paquet.

Valentenko was a head case who signed a KHL contract while on the Hamilton roster.

I will give you O'Byrne...........who was drafted in 2003. We had gaping holes in the 2008/2009 draft regarding shut down DMen.

McDonagh is a PMD.
I've seen this term used recently , and I've either been too lazy or too embarrassed to ask. What is this acronym?

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06-06-2013, 05:06 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I've seen this term used recently , and I've either been too lazy or too embarrassed to ask. What is this acronym?
Puck moving defenseman.

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06-06-2013, 05:12 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Puck moving defenseman.
Thanks Southern. I figured it out about 2 minutes ago and was about to post the edit to myself on that one. Brain not sharp today.


Last edited by Agnostic: 06-06-2013 at 05:17 PM.
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06-06-2013, 05:13 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
McDonagh is a two way defenseman.
I stand corrected.

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06-06-2013, 05:22 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
What does Timmins have to do with scouting professionals? Diaz was in the Swiss A before we signed him (I believe Zurich?) and Desharnais was tearing up the ECHL/2 post-draft eligible years in the Q. Maybe Desharnais you could give him credit for, but seeing as how both were signed after stints of various sizes in professional leagues, and Timmins is the Director of AMATEUR Scouting, I don't know how you can directly equate them with Timmins.
Regardless of wether it's a pro or amateur league, amateur scouting means scouting for the draft and undrafted free agents. Collberg and others were drafted from Swedinsh pro leagues, Emelin too. Nygren also. That's Timmins and his staff.

PRO scouting is NHL, scouting other teams before games(style, systems and tendencies) and players(for trade or FA).

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06-06-2013, 06:13 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I've seen this term used recently , and I've either been too lazy or too embarrassed to ask. What is this acronym?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Puck moving defenseman.
Never mind. I'd probably get an infraction for my joke.

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06-06-2013, 08:49 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
In 2008, you think that not drafting a single DMan is the best that he could do?

In 2009, you think that Mac Bennett was the best that he could do?

If you do, then no need to discuss the issue any longer.
what's next next? he didn't draft shutdown guys between 6'3 and 6'4 from NDG with a speech impediment? keep narrowing the scope until you can 'win' this argument. yes sir

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Old
06-06-2013, 11:43 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I stand corrected.
Definitely.

McDonnaugh is actually better defensively than he is offensively. Just solid, solid, solid.

Makes me sick that we gave him away.

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06-07-2013, 01:24 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Definitely.

McDonnaugh is actually better defensively than he is offensively. Just solid, solid, solid.

Makes me sick that we gave him away.
Move on man.

We suffered in the period 2011-2012 because of it, but now we are compensated with Galchenyuk, and eventually, Collberg.

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06-07-2013, 01:58 AM
  #262
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It should be noted that it is actually impossible to produce more than 2 or 3 successful draft picks per year. Teams have a 50-player contract limit, and a 23-player roster limit, and only 17 players hit the ice in any given game.

If your system was producing 7 players a year, it would mean that you have an absence of veterans on the roster. This year, the team added in Galchenyuk and Gallagher, and gave limited ice time to Tinordi, Beaulieu, Pateryn, and Dumont. That is likely the maximum number of rookies that could be added at once. We also had second year players in Raphael Diaz, Alexei Emelin; and Desharnais, White, Eller, are effectively third-year players. Our system produces a little over 2 rookies per year.

Given all this, the fact Timmins produces more NHL roster players than any other scout could be related to the fact that Gainey and Gauthier were all about letting players walk for nothing. The more players walk for nothing, the more roster spots are open for players like Gabriel Dumont or Frederic St-Denis, who may not actually be legitimate NHLers but still nonetheless boost the drafting success stats of Timmins once they hit the ice.

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Old
06-07-2013, 06:53 AM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I did a whole lot of digging to find this quote...



Considering he played a key role for the Swiss at the WC's, I imagine most of the big cheeses saw him at least a couple of times.

But let's be realistic, we all say "Timmins drafted this guy" but I think the implication is understood that it's more accurately, "the scouting staff under Timmins' direction drafted this guy". None of us knows who's vouching for which guys and how many games of each all our scouts have seen.
This makes the most sense to me. People were making it seem like Timmins actually went to Switzerland to check him out. He probably was at the WC's to see him though, but I think a European scout would go to Swiss A games to check out his "professional" play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcyhabs View Post
And he was generally a step behind Weber statistically. They were the big PMD stars that year. Too bad Weber isn't a bit bigger and a bit more consistent, I'm sure he'll be the next Robidas once he goes to a team with more size and less PMDs.
This is probably one of the most accurate posts i've ever read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezpz View Post
O'Byrne, Fischer, Gleed, Valentenko, Stejskal and McDonagh were all drafted. It's not as if we stopped drafting shutdown D. O'Byrne wasn't very good but was never given a chance here. Fischer busted. Valentenko was tossed into the Gomez deal for no reason and subsequently was never given a chance in New York because of xenophoboarella.

Timmins can't predict ******** GM syndrome trading all our depth when he drafts. He also can't be expected to be as effective when he goes three years without a second rounder/first rounder. I'm not understanding how you can cry when we don't buy at the deadline then cry that we don't have depth. We don't have depth because we bought at the deadline/middle of the season in 2008/9/10.
LOL can you quote the definition for this term

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
In 2008, you think that not drafting a single DMan is the best that he could do?

In 2009, you think that Mac Bennett was the best that he could do?

If you do, then no need to discuss the issue any longer.
What part of "draft the BPA" do you not understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Regardless of wether it's a pro or amateur league, amateur scouting means scouting for the draft and undrafted free agents. Collberg and others were drafted from Swedinsh pro leagues, Emelin too. Nygren also. That's Timmins and his staff.

PRO scouting is NHL, scouting other teams before games(style, systems and tendencies) and players(for trade or FA).
What I don't understand is why "Amateur" scouting is considered undrafted free agents that could theoretically be playing in "Professional" leagues like ECHL, AHL, SEL, Swiss A, KHL, etc.

It makes 0 sense to me. Just because these leagues aren't of NHL-calibre play doesn't mean they aren't professional. The players get paid in most of them (IDK about the ECHL), so how can it be considered "Amateur" scouting.

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06-07-2013, 09:35 AM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
What I don't understand is why "Amateur" scouting is considered undrafted free agents that could theoretically be playing in "Professional" leagues like ECHL, AHL, SEL, Swiss A, KHL, etc.

It makes 0 sense to me. Just because these leagues aren't of NHL-calibre play doesn't mean they aren't professional. The players get paid in most of them (IDK about the ECHL), so how can it be considered "Amateur" scouting.
There's an overlap between 'amateur scouting' and 'professional scouting' for sure. As CP said, if your amateur scout watches Frolunda in the Swedish Elite League to scout Collberg and notices a 27 year old playing on the team who might make a good free agent signing, of course they're going to pass the word along to the pro scouts. And if they like him and he gets signed and turns into a good NHLer for you, in that situation I guess you would give the amateur scout 'credit' for unearthing a pro player.
I'm sure the situation works in reverse too (a pro scout going to watch the 27 year old and a prospect like Collberg catching his eye), but maybe it would be less common since scouting young players requires more specialization and projection than scouting players who are likely at or close to their max potential.

But considering most of your free agents are signed from other NHL teams, I think that's why pro scouting is generally understood to be the scouting of pro players currently playing in the NHL.

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06-07-2013, 10:05 AM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
This makes the most sense to me. People were making it seem like Timmins actually went to Switzerland to check him out. He probably was at the WC's to see him though, but I think a European scout would go to Swiss A games to check out his "professional" play.

What I don't understand is why "Amateur" scouting is considered undrafted free agents that could theoretically be playing in "Professional" leagues like ECHL, AHL, SEL, Swiss A, KHL, etc.

It makes 0 sense to me. Just because these leagues aren't of NHL-calibre play doesn't mean they aren't professional. The players get paid in most of them (IDK about the ECHL), so how can it be considered "Amateur" scouting.
Timmins travels to watch prospects overseas all the time. For example:
Quote:
Timmins stated that when he was in Sweden to scout Henrik Samuelsson (PHX) earlier this year, he really noticed Nystrom and decided to take the chance on him after the team's Swedish scout follow the rest of the season.

The smooth skating winger has very good hockey sense, a good work ethic, and can make things happen with his speed and has excellent distribution skills. He will need to add muscle mass and strength to play on the boards against the men while working on his shooting skills. Nyström played 19 games for MODO in the SEL this year and could compete for a full-time roster spot on the men's team instead of playing at the junior level in the upcoming season.
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...-draft-review/

Why would pro scouts spend all that time overseas. Pierre Gauthier was Director of Professional Scouting, even while he was GM and assistant GM.

Habs have 4 Pro scouts (http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=52816):

Doug Gibson Professional Scout - East
Vaughn Karpan Professional Scout - West
Ethan Moreau Pro Scout - Western
Mark Mowers Pro Scout - Eastern

The European scouts are classified as 'Amateur Scout'.

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Old
06-07-2013, 12:35 PM
  #266
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I like Timmins. He's drafted some high quality players for us, but man, that 2003 draft killed us. That could've been an '84 draft for us or an '87, I'd even have taken a 2007.

We had the #10 pick and 2 second round picks in a deep deep draft. We got 2 NHL players in AK and Lapierre but man we should've got so much more with that one.

Terrible draft for us.

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06-07-2013, 12:52 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
so? i fail to see how that is his fault. it's management's fault if anything. i will concede that drafting huge and angry d-men with shaaaaarp teeth doesn't appear to be his forte. but again: so? look at the lengthy list of players that were given away by management, you don't think a couple of them could have garnered that shutdown guy you're pining for (the fjords)?



no. it's gray and smoggy and foggy and trafficky and stupid and rainy and noisy and dirty
Sounds like Beijing

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06-07-2013, 01:26 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by MarkovsKnee View Post
I like Timmins. He's drafted some high quality players for us, but man, that 2003 draft killed us. That could've been an '84 draft for us or an '87, I'd even have taken a 2007.

We had the #10 pick and 2 second round picks in a deep deep draft. We got 2 NHL players in AK and Lapierre but man we should've got so much more with that one.

Terrible draft for us.
If they went the popular route in 2003 and drafted a highly ranked guy just for being big, we could have ended up with Hugh Jessiman. At least we got some decent seasons out of AK.

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06-07-2013, 01:26 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It should be noted that it is actually impossible to produce more than 2 or 3 successful draft picks per year. Teams have a 50-player contract limit, and a 23-player roster limit, and only 17 players hit the ice in any given game.

If your system was producing 7 players a year, it would mean that you have an absence of veterans on the roster. This year, the team added in Galchenyuk and Gallagher, and gave limited ice time to Tinordi, Beaulieu, Pateryn, and Dumont. That is likely the maximum number of rookies that could be added at once. We also had second year players in Raphael Diaz, Alexei Emelin; and Desharnais, White, Eller, are effectively third-year players. Our system produces a little over 2 rookies per year.

Given all this, the fact Timmins produces more NHL roster players than any other scout could be related to the fact that Gainey and Gauthier were all about letting players walk for nothing. The more players walk for nothing, the more roster spots are open for players like Gabriel Dumont or Frederic St-Denis, who may not actually be legitimate NHLers but still nonetheless boost the drafting success stats of Timmins once they hit the ice.
I generally agree with your point but this season:

Ottawa added 5 rookies.
Maybe 6 if you add Pageau but Bishop-Conacher trade increased their numbers.
Plus Kassian and Dziurzynski.

Probably an exceptional year for them.

Edit: I forgot Lehner. What a year!


Last edited by 25get: 06-07-2013 at 02:10 PM.
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06-07-2013, 02:08 PM
  #270
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I generally agree with your point but this season:

Ottawa added 5 rookies.
Maybe 6 if you add Pageau but Bishop-Conacher trade increased their numbers.
Plus Kassian and Dziurzynski.

Probably an exceptional year for them.
That can happen, occasionally you hit a sweet spot of removing veterans and a good cohort of new blood. Montreal had it in 10-11 when they incorperated 6 AHLers into the lineup full time (Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, Weber and White).

The two per year is what you average long-term rather than what must be done in any particular year.

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Old
06-07-2013, 03:01 PM
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
If they went the popular route in 2003 and drafted a highly ranked guy just for being big, we could have ended up with Hugh Jessiman. At least we got some decent seasons out of AK.
Speculation is that TT wanted Getzlaf, but rest of scouting staff wanted AK46 because he was apparently touted as top 5, but his epilepsy issue made him drop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
I generally agree with your point but this season:

Ottawa added 5 rookies.
Maybe 6 if you add Pageau but Bishop-Conacher trade increased their numbers.
Plus Kassian and Dziurzynski.

Probably an exceptional year for them.

Edit: I forgot Lehner. What a year!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
That can happen, occasionally you hit a sweet spot of removing veterans and a good cohort of new blood. Montreal had it in 10-11 when they incorperated 6 AHLers into the lineup full time (Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, Weber and White).

The two per year is what you average long-term rather than what must be done in any particular year.
Just to chime in here, but didn't Ottawa and Montreal have all those rookies (this year and in 2010-11) because of injuries?

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Old
06-07-2013, 04:03 PM
  #272
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Sounds like Beijing
ding ding ding


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