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What's wrong with this picture?

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Old
01-04-2004, 08:24 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicpea
heh, yeah, that looks pretty blatant alright. But, as noted, it could've been already in the zone and he was pulling back - I doubt it though based on where the 2nd winger is. Bad call I'd say.
I know this totally doesn't matter now but I think you guys missed my post (above). If we look at the position of the 3rd Finn player, who is likely a winger, then this play would indicate a rush and this would indicate that the puck carrier is not 'pulling back', but is in fact causing the Finn #10 to be offside.

Further, for those who argue that this was a later scene from a play that is already onside, well, um, look at the Russian in the neutral zone. If this is defensive coverage in his own zone, he should be sent to Siberia or to play for the Maple Leafs .

Seriously, I know the Russians stunk it up, but this is totally an offside play.


Last edited by chicpea: 01-04-2004 at 08:30 PM.
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01-04-2004, 08:58 PM
  #27
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The linesman were awful all night, ref called at least one obvious icing himself, maybe they were kids all something and were lost in the high speed game.
Another picture of the moments before the goal. Finns were debating this in Jatkoaika and someone posted the pictures there, the concensus was that it was propably an offside. Then again, Bergenheim did clear onside IMO and in the pic he is already heading back, whether the puck had crossed before the pic I don't know. (If it had that is not offside because the puck has to cross the line completely to go back to neutral zone.)

For linesman's defence, Filppula had trouble controlling the puck and it was bouncing wildly over the blue line which also was why it flew so weirdly when he got the shot off. BTW, for Barulin's defence I've seen quite a few goals like that in the old arena. It has its peculiarities and one of them is that the way the lights have been setup makes it very hard for the goalie to see the puck up high. Another favourite is affectionally known as Rinkmaster's Special: there is something fundamentally wrong with the end boards and the puck takes weird bounces, particullary at a point in the board roughly bit towards corner from the faceoff dot which sometimes causese the puck dumped across the crease or shot back by dman to bounce right in front of the net.

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Old
01-05-2004, 02:56 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teme
Another picture of the moments before the goal. Finns were debating this in Jatkoaika and someone posted the pictures there, the concensus was that it was propably an offside.
That picture is still way too late. You can see a ton of blue ice between the puck and #12's stick. Back up the tape a half second or so.

When you do, I suspect you're going to find it was onside. #10's back skate is pretty much already even with the puck, and he only needs a sliver of that skate in the neutral zone when the puck enters the blue line.

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01-05-2004, 03:01 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slay
Ooook let's go back to the 2002 WJHC Gold Medal Game.

Here the reply of that moment:

http://alexovechkin.narod.ru/video/wjc2002b.avi

The net was pushed off about half a second - a second till the end of the 3rd period and it doesn't look for me that it was made by purpose by the goalie. I don't know that could be a penalty shot for THAT.

Since you mentioned that game, here are some potentially key referee mistakes vs Russian team:

First goal of Canadian team was scored (on 20th second of 1st period) illegaly: Stoll just pushed the puck by hand to Sutherby and I don't think that it is legal eh; here the video replies:

http://alexovechkin.narod.ru/video/wjc2002a.avi
http://alexovechkin.narod.ru/video/wjc2002a2.avi

During 4-3 leading of Russian team Volchenkov got a penalty for elbowing but in my opinion it was clear shoulder hit; during that power play Canada tied the scored; video reply:

http://alexovechkin.narod.ru/video/wjc2002_volch.avi

I hope I satisfactied your curiosity about that Gold Medal Game

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01-05-2004, 03:03 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehc73
Don't linesmen have some unwritten rule such that if there's a doubt, be safe and call it offside?
Absolutely not. If we "play it safe" and blow down an onside play, we just **** up just as bad as letting an offside play go would be.

And this picture is technically onside. As soon as the puck touches the blue line, it is in the zone. The only way this play would be offside, is if both of Bergenheim's feet were in the zone while the puck was outside the zone.

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01-05-2004, 03:26 AM
  #31
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For those not getting what I'm talking about, here's a modified picture. I've drawn a red line on the actual point where offsides is decided, and the blue arrow shows where the puck has to be in the still capture before you can judge:

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01-05-2004, 03:31 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
For those not getting what I'm talking about, here's a modified picture. I've drawn a red line on the actual point where offsides is decided, and the blue arrow shows where the puck has to be in the still capture before you can judge:
This photo solves the case completely as Bergenheim's back foot is on the blue line.

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01-05-2004, 08:30 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
This photo solves the case completely as Bergenheim's back foot is on the blue line.
It solves nothing.

No one really knows what happened instead of those who were there and kept a close eye on it.

I hear people arguing both sides - but most I've spoken to say it was offside.

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01-05-2004, 08:47 AM
  #34
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The photo above you proves the play was onside.

The puck is technically inside the zone, while Bergenheim's skate is on the blue line. There is no debating that photo.

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01-05-2004, 09:32 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
The photo above you proves the play was onside.

The puck is technically inside the zone, while Bergenheim's skate is on the blue line. There is no debating that photo.
It proves that the play was onside in that precise moment.
But thtat proves nothing.

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01-05-2004, 12:33 PM
  #36
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How does it not prove that it wasn't offside?

Teme's snapshot is the 'before', yours is the 'after'. Teme's picture shows Bergenheim was onside, and was simply skating faster than Filpulla in order to get to where he was relative to the puck in your picture.

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01-05-2004, 05:13 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
It proves that the play was onside in that precise moment.
But thtat proves nothing.
The photo you provided to start this thread was also onside, and that was taken a split second after the photo shown just above.

What exactly are you trying to prove?

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01-05-2004, 05:54 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
For those not getting what I'm talking about, here's a modified picture. I've drawn a red line on the actual point where offsides is decided, and the blue arrow shows where the puck has to be in the still capture before you can judge:

That pretty much takes care of that. Play was onside.

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01-05-2004, 09:12 PM
  #39
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I suppose if the puck comes from the middle zone - blue line belongs to the middle zone and if the puck in offensive/deffensive zone it belongs to their. The player entered the offensive zone earlier than the puck so it was offside.

Here some food for brains:

http://alexovechkin.narod.ru/video/offside.avi

The situation is similar, the player and the puck were on the blue line at the same moment but the player entered the zone earlier.

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01-05-2004, 09:29 PM
  #40
teme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slay
I suppose if the puck comes from the middle zone - blue line belongs to the middle zone and if the puck in offensive/deffensive zone it belongs to their. The player entered the offensive zone earlier than the puck so it was offside.
Yes. The puck has to cross the line completeley and that applies to both directions. Which is why dman can hold the puck on blueline at PP for example. The redline in the pic is in correct position IF the puck had already crossed the blue line completely before the pic and Filppula was just pulling it back on the line.

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01-05-2004, 10:04 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
The puck is technically inside the zone
From the IIHF's rulebook:

450 - OFFSIDES
Players of an attacking team may not precede the puck into their attacking zone.

The determining factors in deciding an offside are:
- the player’s skates position - player is offside when both skates are completely over the blue line in his attacking zone before the puck completely crosses the line,
- the puck position - the puck must have completely crossed the blue line into the attacking zone.

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Old
01-06-2004, 12:44 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slay
http://alexovechkin.narod.ru/video/offside.avi

The situation is similar, the player and the puck were on the blue line at the same moment but the player entered the zone earlier.
That video makes exactly the same mistake I was talking about. It stops the video on the inner edge of the blue line, which isn't the right point. If you single step that video and stop it when the puck completely crosses the outside edge, it's *extremely* close to onside. The video is so poor it's hard to tell exactly when it enters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teme
Yes. The puck has to cross the line completeley and that applies to both directions. Which is why dman can hold the puck on blueline at PP for example. The redline in the pic is in correct position IF the puck had already crossed the blue line completely before the pic and Filppula was just pulling it back on the line.
You're making the same mistake. The same edge of the line (the red line in my picture) is used for determining if the puck leaves the zone, and for when it first enters.

Ok, now you've all got me doubting myself. I've sent off an inquiry to the NHL and the Canucks, just to see what they say.

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Old
01-06-2004, 12:47 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
Ok, now you've all got me doubting myself. I've sent off an inquiry to the NHL and the Canucks, just to see what they say.
They're not going to help you much with an IIHF sanctioned game.

Fact is neither of these photos tell the story, as the IIHF rulebook dictates.

And offside or onside, the purpose of this thread is flawed. I would like to see the author of this thread get on the lines for a World U20 Championship quarter final and see how he does.

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Old
01-06-2004, 01:26 AM
  #44
Slay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norseman
From the IIHF's rulebook:

450 - OFFSIDES
Players of an attacking team may not precede the puck into their attacking zone.

The determining factors in deciding an offside are:
- the player?s skates position - player is offside when both skates are completely over the blue line in his attacking zone before the puck completely crosses the line,
- the puck position - the puck must have completely crossed the blue line into the attacking zone.
I think it clears the stuation [if the puck came from the middle zone]. The player completely crossed the blueline earlier than the puck did thus it was offside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
That video makes exactly the same mistake I was talking about. It stops the video on the inner edge of the blue line, which isn't the right point. If you single step that video and stop it when the puck completely crosses the outside edge, it's *extremely* close to onside.
Why it is not right? I suppose it doesn't matter if a player and the puck on the blueline at the same moment (on the picture and my video they are); important who first completely crossed the blueline into attacking zone (on the picture and the video players did it earlier that the puck did).

The redline you drew should be on the inner edge of the blue line if the puck comes from the middle zone (I haven'e seen the moment, maybe the puck came on the blueline from the attacking zone ).


Last edited by Slay: 01-06-2004 at 01:36 AM.
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