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Old
10-09-2006, 12:44 PM
  #151
True Blue
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Again, he was brought here to give the Yankees a better chance in October (as was Mussina, Giambi, Sheffield, Abreu and Johnson). He has not won a ring on a team that is a perrenial contender. That's a bust. The greatest player in the history of the game hit 8th in game 4. That is astounding,
As was Martinez, Delgado & Beltran. If the Mets do not win it all this year, are all of them to be considered busts as well? Any player that any contending team adds is done to help the team win in October. To point out only Arod is not fair. Anaheim signed Vlad for such a purpose. Is he a bust? How about Thome?

BTW, personally I do not consider him the greatest player in history. Or even close to it.
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I don't see it that way.

And of course you have to make a Pujols for Delgado trade. Pujols is younger and much better. A-Rod wasn't younger and not all that much better than Soriano.
You do not have to see it that way. But that is exactly what it is. There is no way in creation that Minaya would EVER turn down a trade for Pujols. However, the difference between Pujols and Delgado is not what is going be the difference in the Mets post season success.

And you can have your opinion regarding Arod, Soriano does not measure up. You are more than entitled to think what you will, if you were to poll the powers that be in MLB, all of them would take Arod.
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It's not stale. Those are moves that are small moves based on talent analysis not taking on a contract or spending big money.

And I don't consider Pedro and Beltran to be Omar's best move (although Pedro was more than just a baseball move it was a move to give the Mets a sense of legitimacy).
It's stale becuase anyone who wants to bash the Yankees always resorts to it. Frequently (and not saying that this is you per se) without looking at all the facts. You may not consider Beltran & Pedro to be his best move, but the outsider can simply state that ANYONE could have given them the years and the dollars and had those players.
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Wang and Cano have been good (I think that Yankee fans overrate Cabrera). And you can laud Cashman for waiting out Damon but who else was really beating down Damon's door?
I applaud him waiting Damon out and not giving him the 5th year and the extra $12m he wanted. And, yes, the big teams were after him.
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When you take on money, you don't have to give a lot back. The biggest asset the other tema is financial relief from the contract they are moveing,

And tremendous value was what you got out of Paul O'neil and Scott Broscious and Jim Leyritz and Jeff Nelson and Mike Stanton and Chad Curtis and Charlie Hayes.
Not always the case. Teams still want excellent returns for superior players. The players that you are naming were not "great value" but "great results". The value part comes in when you look at the return as compared to the price.
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Then those team would have made a huge mistake.
That is not the point. The point is that they WERE there and wanted to give more. Mistake or not a mistake is irrelevant.
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Your owner (and the fans) believe that no season is a success short of a World Series. Using that standard the Torre/Cashman regime of late has been a failure.
Come on, Singin'. That's crazy. Sports radio and ESPN have built it up that way, but realistically how can you possibly state that onley a Series victory is a success. Not one team in any sport can use such a standard.

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10-09-2006, 12:52 PM
  #152
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The Mets also play a smart brand of baseball, get solid pitching out of their bullpen, and play solid defense. The contrast between the Mets and the Dodgers was embodied in the double tagout play by LoDuca in Game One.
And, for the most part, they bashed their way to victory during the regular season. Their defense is good, but hardly great. The bullpen work has been wonderfull.
The difference for that game was that JD Drew is a moron, not anything wonderfull that the Mets did.
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Anybody could have picked up Endy Chavez and Jose Valentin. No one did, save Omar. Then let's look at two moves he got killed for - Jae Seo for Duaner Sanchez, and Benson for Julio ( later traded for El Duque) and Maine. And, in the pickup of Franco, who, in one small gesture in April, might have saved Beltran's career in NY. Or the pickup of Mota off the scrap heap. Add, in minor deals like the pickup of Dave Williams, who filled in admirably in August. Yeah, Omar made big moves. But, he also made planty of small, subtle moves which have greatly attributed
No one is denying that he got great play from Chavez and Valentin. He took a chance and it paid off. No one killed him for getting Sanchez. The move was mostly applauded. The Benson move did not work as Julio was a disaster. And Benson would have been one of the Mets better pitchers. No one is denying that he made good moves. However, having the ability to pay more than anyone else for players can hide a lot of warts.
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$15 million just does not seem cost-effective for a "complement for a strong team". I'm not a big Abreu fan, just because, i've him too much over the years be more of a compiler of stats...like I said, a classic fantasy ballplayer. Yes, the Yankees can assume that kind of salary, but, at what point does someone realize that approach has not gotten them a championship in half a decade.
The issue is not whether something is cost-effective. It would not have been cost effective to extend his contract. And simply lumping him into a "classic fantasy player" is uncalled for. I could make such a comment about anyone who has ever come up small in the playoffs.

Oh, and teams and other fans would KILL if someone was to start using the argument that they are failing becuase they have not won the World Series in 5 years. It is actually incomprehensible to me that there are people out there who think this way (and I am not simply targeting you as I have no idea if you really feel that way).

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10-09-2006, 01:10 PM
  #153
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As was Martinez, Delgado & Beltran. If the Mets do not win it all this year, are all of them to be considered busts as well? Any player that any contending team adds is done to help the team win in October. To point out only Arod is not fair. Anaheim signed Vlad for such a purpose. Is he a bust? How about Thome?

BTW, personally I do not consider him the greatest player in history. Or even close to it.

You do not have to see it that way. But that is exactly what it is. There is no way in creation that Minaya would EVER turn down a trade for Pujols. However, the difference between Pujols and Delgado is not what is going be the difference in the Mets post season success.

And you can have your opinion regarding Arod, Soriano does not measure up. You are more than entitled to think what you will, if you were to poll the powers that be in MLB, all of them would take Arod.

It's stale becuase anyone who wants to bash the Yankees always resorts to it. Frequently (and not saying that this is you per se) without looking at all the facts. You may not consider Beltran & Pedro to be his best move, but the outsider can simply state that ANYONE could have given them the years and the dollars and had those players.

I applaud him waiting Damon out and not giving him the 5th year and the extra $12m he wanted. And, yes, the big teams were after him.

Not always the case. Teams still want excellent returns for superior players. The players that you are naming were not "great value" but "great results". The value part comes in when you look at the return as compared to the price.

That is not the point. The point is that they WERE there and wanted to give more. Mistake or not a mistake is irrelevant.

Come on, Singin'. That's crazy. Sports radio and ESPN have built it up that way, but realistically how can you possibly state that onley a Series victory is a success. Not one team in any sport can use such a standard.
Look I really don't want to get into a big Yankee discussion. This team has suffered from bringing mercernaries who have not played with a whole lot of heart. The Yankees have gotten away from what worked for them. And if you fire Torre, then so must you fire Cashman.

And if you want to bring Omar into it, he did make some big money moves with Pedro, Beltran and Delgado. But he also made moves to get the under the radar role player that Cashman hasn't. I'm talking about guy like Chavez, Valentin, Mota, Feliciano and even Lo Duca (they traded for him rather than sign a Molina or Hernandez to long-term deals).

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10-09-2006, 01:16 PM
  #154
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No one is denying that he got great play from Chavez and Valentin. He took a chance and it paid off. No one killed him for getting Sanchez. The move was mostly applauded. The Benson move did not work as Julio was a disaster. And Benson would have been one of the Mets better pitchers. No one is denying that he made good moves. However, having the ability to pay more than anyone else for players can hide a lot of warts.
The Benson move did work out. No matter how bad Julio was, the Minaya turned Benson into El Duque and Maine (tow fifths of the starting rotation for the majority of the season). And I'd rather have Maine then Benson.

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10-09-2006, 01:23 PM
  #155
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And, for the most part, they bashed their way to victory during the regular season. Their defense is good, but hardly great. The bullpen work has been wonderfull.
The difference for that game was that JD Drew is a moron, not anything wonderfull that the Mets did.
I disagree. The execution on the Mets' part was flawless. Grenn played the ball properly, hit his cutoff man, and Valentin fired a strike to LoDuca to get Kent, and then had the awareness to also tagout Drew. OTOH, both Kent and Drew were out to lunch on the play, as was the third base coach. The Mets did the little things to be successful; the Dodgers cost themselves repeatedly throughout the series. (BTW, JD Drew is an awful baseball player. He looks like he has NO feel for the game whatsoever.)

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No one is denying that he got great play from Chavez and Valentin. He took a chance and it paid off. No one killed him for getting Sanchez. The move was mostly applauded. The Benson move did not work as Julio was a disaster. And Benson would have been one of the Mets better pitchers. No one is denying that he made good moves. However, having the ability to pay more than anyone else for players can hide a lot of warts.
And, yet, the Mets were 5th in team payroll this year. So, four other teams could have taken the same approach, but, at this point weren't as successful as the Mets have been so far. He turned Julio into an asset which got him El Duque, who pitched well when both Pedro and Glavine were out of the rotation. And, Maine has been every bit as effective as Benson, while not costing the Mets $8 million. And, picking up players like Chavez and Valentin are what highlight how Minaya didn't just go out and throw money around to build a team. Yes, he spent money on the likes of Pedro and Beltran. But, he also brought in players who contributed that fly under the radar. Like you said earlier, anyone could he spent money. Minaya built a winning team with other acquisitions.

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The issue is not whether something is cost-effective. It would not have been cost effective to extend his contract. And simply lumping him into a "classic fantasy player" is uncalled for. I could make such a comment about anyone who has ever come up small in the playoffs.
Why? Abreu is just that. People look at the guys stats, and he always goes high in rotiserrie baseball drafts. But, when you watch him play, you see that he doesn't always do the little things to help a team win. He's notorious in Philly for shying away from flyballs hit near the wall. But, he always has great fantasy stats...high OBP, a good power/speed mix.

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Oh, and teams and other fans would KILL if someone was to start using the argument that they are failing becuase they have not won the World Series in 5 years. It is actually incomprehensible to me that there are people out there who think this way (and I am not simply targeting you as I have no idea if you really feel that way).
TB, this is the legacy Steinbrenner has wrought. Look at the press release he sends out. It's not just sports radio or the press; Yankee fans themselves carry that message. Yankee fans were calling into the 'FAN claiming they were embarrassed to be a Yankee fan on Saturday. Really? Making the POs all those years, and now you're embarrassed to be a Yankee fan? Who's the one setting that standard?

Why is Torre getting fired then (or at least being discussed as such?) Because the press or sports radio have declared the last five years as failure? Nope. I'd think that's coming from the owner and the fanbase.

Here's the ironic thing about this whole discussion. The Mets have built a team similar to how the Yankees did it in the 1990's, when a real baseball man, Gene Michael started getting the Yanks "*****" together. They didn't have the obscenely high payroll they do now, there was an emphasis on chemistry, and they didn't have to have All-Stars at every position. They also lost ballplayers who represented the heart and soul of those winning teams, and then instead of replacing that heart and soul, they brought in mercenaries like Giambi, Mussina, Sheffield, A-Rod and now Damon, which, effectually also brought in a lot of payroll with little flexibility, and not quite the same result.

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10-09-2006, 01:24 PM
  #156
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The Benson move did work out. No matter how bad Julio was, the Minaya turned Benson into El Duque and Maine (tow fifths of the starting rotation for the majority of the season). And I'd rather have Maine then Benson.
D'OH...nice work, SBOB! Looks like the same thing I just posted.

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10-09-2006, 01:29 PM
  #157
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TB, this is the legacy Steinbrenner has wrought. Look at the press release he sends out. It's not just sports radio or the press; Yankee fans themselves carry that message. Yankee fans were calling into the 'FAN claiming they were embarrassed to be a Yankee fan on Saturday. Really? Making the POs all those years, and now you're embarrassed to be a Yankee fan? Who's the one setting that standard?

Why is Torre getting fired then (or at least being discussed as such?) Because the press or sports radio have declared the last five years as failure? Nope. I'd think that's coming from the owner and the fanbase.

Here's the ironic thing about this whole discussion. The Mets have built a team similar to how the Yankees did it in the 1990's, when a real baseball man, Gene Michael started getting the Yanks "*****" together. They didn't have the obscenely high payroll they do now, there was an emphasis on chemistry, and they didn't have to have All-Stars at every position. They also lost ballplayers who represented the heart and soul of those winning teams, and then instead of replacing that heart and soul, they brought in mercenaries like Giambi, Mussina, Sheffield, A-Rod and now Damon, which, effectually also brought in a lot of payroll with little flexibility, and not quite the same result.
That's the way I see it too.

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10-09-2006, 01:31 PM
  #158
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Yankees have destroyed baseball, with baseball's permission, because there is no hard cap. They are guaranteed a playoff spot from here to eternity as long as we remain in this system. When they lose it is truly time to rejoice.

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10-09-2006, 01:35 PM
  #159
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Look I really don't want to get into a big Yankee discussion. This team has suffered from bringing mercernaries who have not played with a whole lot of heart. The Yankees have gotten away from what worked for them. And if you fire Torre, then so must you fire Cashman.

And if you want to bring Omar into it, he did make some big money moves with Pedro, Beltran and Delgado. But he also made moves to get the under the radar role player that Cashman hasn't. I'm talking about guy like Chavez, Valentin, Mota, Feliciano and even Lo Duca (they traded for him rather than sign a Molina or Hernandez to long-term deals).
If you want to simply agree to disagree, that is fine. However, I can come up with the same "small" moves for Cashman that flew under the radar. Last year without Chacon and Small, the Yankees do not make the playoffs. At the end of the day, I am not bringing up Omar simply to bring him up, but to show that there are moves that all successfull GMs make that fly under the radar, whether they are acknolwedged or not.
And by the way, I started my posts off by saying that I do not think that Torre should be fired. Somehow I think that got lost in the ensuing debate.

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10-09-2006, 01:42 PM
  #160
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If you want to simply agree to disagree, that is fine. However, I can come up with the same "small" moves for Cashman that flew under the radar. Last year without Chacon and Small, the Yankees do not make the playoffs. At the end of the day, I am not bringing up Omar simply to bring him up, but to show that there are moves that all successfull GMs make that fly under the radar, whether they are acknolwedged or not.
And by the way, I started my posts off by saying that I do not think that Torre should be fired. Somehow I think that got lost in the ensuing debate.

And my point is: if you fire Torre, you need to fire Cashman. If one stays, the other has to stay.

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10-09-2006, 01:55 PM
  #161
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I disagree. The execution on the Mets' part was flawless. Grenn played the ball properly, hit his cutoff man, and Valentin fired a strike to LoDuca to get Kent, and then had the awareness to also tagout Drew. OTOH, both Kent and Drew were out to lunch on the play, as was the third base coach. The Mets did the little things to be successful; the Dodgers cost themselves repeatedly throughout the series. (BTW, JD Drew is an awful baseball player. He looks like he has NO feel for the game whatsoever.)
Then, in interest of all of our fingers, we will have to agree to disagree. You are a Mets fan, right? I know full well that you are an impartial poster and analyze all situations. However, in here what you are calling flawless execution, I see as Drew's utter stupidity.
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And, yet, the Mets were 5th in team payroll this year.
I fail to see how that matters. The point is that they have the ability to spend money and are now doing so. Let's not pretend that Omar is running things on some sort of shoe-string budget.
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And, picking up players like Chavez and Valentin are what highlight how Minaya didn't just go out and throw money around to build a team.
Oh, I see. And Cashman simply goes out and buys what he needs, right? (Please do not mistake this as some kind of agitation or haughiness towards you....I could very well be misreading) This year, when Matsui, Sheff & Cano were out, who did Cashman plug the holes with? Melky Cabrera & Miguel Cairo. Abreu came at the end. Who got the Yankees to the playoffs last year? Aaron Small & Shawn Chacon.
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Yes, he spent money on the likes of Pedro and Beltran. But, he also brought in players who contributed that fly under the radar.
So too did Cashman.
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Like you said earlier, anyone could he spent money. Minaya built a winning team with other acquisitions.
Minay built a winning team by spending more on players that he wanted than his competitors were willing to offer. NO ONE was offering Florida the type of pitching prospect that the Mets gave up for the salary dump that is Delgado. No one was going to give Beltran the money that Boras demanded. No one was going to give Pedro that extra year. No one was giving Wagner the extra year and extra $10 that he demanded. Pedro aside, the Mets do not make the playoffs without Beltran or Delgado or Wagner. Chavez and Valentin are nice, but hardly essential. Yes, Omar got lots of bang for his buck, but let's not pretend that they are the straw that stirs the drink.
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Why? Abreu is just that. People look at the guys stats, and he always goes high in rotiserrie baseball drafts. But, when you watch him play, you see that he doesn't always do the little things to help a team win. He's notorious in Philly for shying away from flyballs hit near the wall. But, he always has great fantasy stats...high OBP, a good power/speed mix.
We're simply going to have to agree to disagree on this one and walk away. I have no idea of how I am going to prove my point to you or vica-versa considering that the discussions of stats vs. opinion cannot move forward.
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TB, this is the legacy Steinbrenner has wrought. Look at the press release he sends out. It's not just sports radio or the press; Yankee fans themselves carry that message. Yankee fans were calling into the 'FAN claiming they were embarrassed to be a Yankee fan on Saturday. Really? Making the POs all those years, and now you're embarrassed to be a Yankee fan? Who's the one setting that standard?
But to pretend that such a standard is realistic is simply assinine. These so-called fans who were storming the airwaves could not possibly be fans in the 80's & early 90's (especially the early 90's) otherwise there is no way that they would be "embarassed". They are simply arrogant j-o's (to steal JR's favorite words) who have no idea of what life is like in the lean years of a sports franchise. What team could possibly live up to such a ridiculous standard? Not Man U. Not the 90's 48ers or Redskins or Cowboys. Not the Celtics of the 50's & 60's or Magic's showtime Lakers. Not the early 80's Edmonton Oilers. Off course I want a WS win, but to treat each year as an utter failure if the Series is not won is simply ludicrous.
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Why is Torre getting fired then (or at least being discussed as such?) Because the press or sports radio have declared the last five years as failure? Nope. I'd think that's coming from the owner and the fanbase.
Blaming Torre for George's obsession w/ Johnson & Arod is silly.
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Here's the ironic thing about this whole discussion. The Mets have built a team similar to how the Yankees did it in the 1990's, when a real baseball man, Gene Michael started getting the Yanks "*****" together.
Is that a shot that Cashman is not a real baseball man? These Mets are nothing like the early Yankees. Those Yankees did not spend on players like Beltran, Wagner & Delgado. The Mets did. Cashman, like him or not, has done about as good of a job as possible with the Yankees.
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They didn't have the obscenely high payroll they do now, there was an emphasis on chemistry, and they didn't have to have All-Stars at every position. They also lost ballplayers who represented the heart and soul of those winning teams, and then instead of replacing that heart and soul, they brought in mercenaries like Giambi, Mussina, Sheffield, A-Rod and now Damon, which, effectually also brought in a lot of payroll with little flexibility, and not quite the same result.
jas, I will bet you an entire night of drinking at MSG that says that the Mets payroll will go up SIGNIFICANTLY from where this year started to where next year will begin.

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10-09-2006, 02:00 PM
  #162
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Yankees have destroyed baseball, with baseball's permission, because there is no hard cap. They are guaranteed a playoff spot from here to eternity as long as we remain in this system. When they lose it is truly time to rejoice.
The Yankees destroyed baseball? How do I even begin to address this little masterpiece? Ask the Florida Marlins, Brewers to return the $30m that they got from George and we can begin to get into it. How about how Carl Pohland (more money than 3 Steinbrenners) refuses to spend? Ask ALL the small market teams on what they do with George's money. Ask all of the owners of the stadiums how they hate they Yankees when their stadiums sell out for each and every Yankees game.

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10-09-2006, 02:19 PM
  #163
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The Yankees destroyed baseball? How do I even begin to address this little masterpiece? Ask the Florida Marlins, Brewers to return the $30m that they got from George and we can begin to get into it. How about how Carl Pohland (more money than 3 Steinbrenners) refuses to spend? Ask ALL the small market teams on what they do with George's money. Ask all of the owners of the stadiums how they hate they Yankees when their stadiums sell out for each and every Yankees game.
For starters you might want to address it rather than to speak about everything but my point. You left out my statement that this has occured with Baseball's permission but including that part would have made your entire post pointless so it is quite understandable that you chose to ignore it.

Money is going to small market teams. Ain't that great. Baseball has become welfare for the rich. Perhaps to you this is a sport working beautifully. I prefer a level playing field of competition. You prefer viewing all of this as some sort of symbiotic monetary relationship. George buys pennants. KC and their friends get welfare at the expense of their fans. The owners are happy and the fans are miserable. Great policy.

While it has been shown that you can't buy a WS victory it has become obvious to everyone with half a brain that purchasing a spot in the baseball playoffs is easy. This automatically eliminates one spot every single year. Hardly good for a sport.

Perhaps I did issue a masterpiece because it flew right by you.

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10-09-2006, 02:33 PM
  #164
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How does a Yankee playoff thread get turned into a pro-Mets thread?The Mets don't buy players?They didn't benefit from the Marlins firesale?Not once but twice.How did Al Leiter and Mike Piazza become Mets after the first firesale?Now Carlos Delgado and Paul LoDuca.Billy Wagner?Pedro Martinez?Carlos Beltran?Cashman saved the Yankees 2005 season with the acquisition of Shawn Chacon and bringing up Aaron Small

Please don't talk about legacies bwtn George and Wilpon.It's not even close

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10-09-2006, 02:34 PM
  #165
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Anyone listening to WFAN? Mike & Chris were ripping Cory Lidle for making comments that they felt insulted Joe Torre, so one of Lidle's friends heard them on the radio and called Lidle, who called up the FAN and had the most awkward interview with Mike & Chris. Pretty heated on both sides, and needless to say, Mike, Chris and Lidle all sounded pretty pissed.

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10-09-2006, 02:41 PM
  #166
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How does a Yankee playoff thread get turned into a pro-Mets thread?The Mets don't buy players?They didn't benefit from the Marlins firesale?Not once but twice.How did Al Leiter and Mike Piazza become Mets after the first firesale?Now Carlos Delgado and Paul LoDuca.Billy Wagner?Pedro Martinez?Carlos Beltran?Cashman saved the Yankees 2005 season with the acquisition of Shawn Chacon and bringing up Aaron Small

Please don't talk about legacies bwtn George and Wilpon.It's not even close
1) Nobody is saying that the Mets don't buy players. What I am saying is Minaya has made the small, talent evaluation move that Cashman failed to this season.

2) George's legacy is being mentioned because the Yankees feel they should win the World Series ever year. And if that is the way it's going to be (and it should be), then it's not enough to just make the playoffs.

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10-09-2006, 03:50 PM
  #167
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For starters you might want to address it rather than to speak about everything but my point. You left out my statement that this has occured with Baseball's permission but including that part would have made your entire post pointless so it is quite understandable that you chose to ignore it.
Come again? Did I or did I not quote your entire statement? So what are you taking about? Who cares about "baseball's permission"? What on Earth does that show? And in no way does it even come close to disputing anything that I have posted.
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Money is going to small market teams. Ain't that great. Baseball has become welfare for the rich. Perhaps to you this is a sport working beautifully. I prefer a level playing field of competition.
The amount of wild card teams that have won the World Series is not evidence enough for you? How about the amount of the top-10 salaried teams that have made the playoffs this year? How about the "small market" teams that have won the Series? Why ignore facts?
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You prefer viewing all of this as some sort of symbiotic monetary relationship. George buys pennants. KC and their friends get welfare at the expense of their fans. The owners are happy and the fans are miserable. Great policy.
Name me just one team that won with virtually all home-grown players. Or even one that won with even half the team as home grown. So the "buying" aspect is out of the window.
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While it has been shown that you can't buy a WS victory it has become obvious to everyone with half a brain that purchasing a spot in the baseball playoffs is easy. This automatically eliminates one spot every single year. Hardly good for a sport.
Boston has competed. Toronto is competitive. And if Angelos could every figure out how to hire someone competent, so too would Baltimore. The best thing that has happened to the business of baseball are the Yankees.
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Perhaps I did issue a masterpiece because it flew right by you.
Not really. With such a diversity of World Series winners, teams making more money than evey before, more "small market" teams competing and making the playofs than every before and high television ratings, you have not shown how exactly the Yankees have destroyed baseball. Hard to claim that someone has destroyed anything, when the sport is in the best shape in a long, long time. What evidence can you point to that will show that baseball is not thriving?

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10-09-2006, 03:52 PM
  #168
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How does a Yankee playoff thread get turned into a pro-Mets thread?The Mets don't buy players?They didn't benefit from the Marlins firesale?Not once but twice.How did Al Leiter and Mike Piazza become Mets after the first firesale?Now Carlos Delgado and Paul LoDuca.Billy Wagner?Pedro Martinez?Carlos Beltran?Cashman saved the Yankees 2005 season with the acquisition of Shawn Chacon and bringing up Aaron Small
It's not really a pro-Mets thread. I am the one that invoked the Mets in my debates with Singin' & jas. Not the other way around. I used them within my analogies.

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10-09-2006, 03:56 PM
  #169
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If I'm not mistaken isn't attendance at the highest it's been in a very long time?

I think the Yankees have always been accused of something.

Before the draft they were accussed of signing all the best prospects, then they were accussed of using free agency, in a new system they'll be some other reason.

At the end of the day, other owners could spend money but they don't. That's the long and short of it.

If the Yankees never existed it still wouldn't change the fact that the owners don't spend.

The big problem is not the yankees, but too many owners who buy a team strictly from an investment standpoint. They either want to eventually sell the team or they just want to diversify their portfolio.

You could put a cap in place, do whatever you'd like but it wouldn't change who invests what, what teams are playing cities that don't give a damn and that the owners aren't placing winning as their top priority.

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10-09-2006, 04:05 PM
  #170
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Then, in interest of all of our fingers, we will have to agree to disagree. You are a Mets fan, right? I know full well that you are an impartial poster and analyze all situations. However, in here what you are calling flawless execution, I see as Drew's utter stupidity.
If the Mets don't execute the play, Drew doesn't have a chance to exhibit his stupidity.

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I fail to see how that matters. The point is that they have the ability to spend money and are now doing so. Let's not pretend that Omar is running things on some sort of shoe-string budget.
Minaya still had to deal off Cameron's salary, in order to add Delgado and Wagner. They only only outspent Atlanta by $10 million. I also believe that the team they just swept, the Dodgers, had a higher payroll. So, it's not like they have some great advantage over the rest of their competition.

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Oh, I see. And Cashman simply goes out and buys what he needs, right? (Please do not mistake this as some kind of agitation or haughiness towards you....I could very well be misreading) This year, when Matsui, Sheff & Cano were out, who did Cashman plug the holes with? Melky Cabrera & Miguel Cairo. Abreu came at the end. Who got the Yankees to the playoffs last year? Aaron Small & Shawn Chacon.
No, I'm giving a great deal of credit to Gene Michael. Michael's the one who got the llikes of O'Neill, Brosiuis, Jimmy Key and the like, and made sure guys like Pettitte, Rivera, Jeter, Bernie and Posada were developed properly. It's his handprint all over those 90's teams.

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Minay built a winning team by spending more on players that he wanted than his competitors were willing to offer. NO ONE was offering Florida the type of pitching prospect that the Mets gave up for the salary dump that is Delgado. No one was going to give Beltran the money that Boras demanded. No one was going to give Pedro that extra year. No one was giving Wagner the extra year and extra $10 that he demanded. Pedro aside, the Mets do not make the playoffs without Beltran or Delgado or Wagner. Chavez and Valentin are nice, but hardly essential. Yes, Omar got lots of bang for his buck, but let's not pretend that they are the straw that stirs the drink.
Did I ever deny that the Mets spend money? They're in NY, they better damn well do so. But, my point is, they spend in the same range as their counterparts in LA, Boston and Chicago.



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But to pretend that such a standard is realistic is simply assinine. These so-called fans who were storming the airwaves could not possibly be fans in the 80's & early 90's (especially the early 90's) otherwise there is no way that they would be "embarassed". They are simply arrogant j-o's (to steal JR's favorite words) who have no idea of what life is like in the lean years of a sports franchise. What team could possibly live up to such a ridiculous standard? Not Man U. Not the 90's 48ers or Redskins or Cowboys. Not the Celtics of the 50's & 60's or Magic's showtime Lakers. Not the early 80's Edmonton Oilers. Off course I want a WS win, but to treat each year as an utter failure if the Series is not won is simply ludicrous.
Again, that's not my standard. I've seen four championship of the teams I follow in my lifetime...the '86 Mets, the Giants in '87 and '91, and the Rangers in '94. I was cognizant of the Knicks in '73, but, I hardly lived and died with that team.

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Blaming Torre for George's obsession w/ Johnson & Arod is silly.
I'm not blaming Torre. my point is that, while Torre gets blame, so should Cashman, who put together this team.

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Is that a shot that Cashman is not a real baseball man? These Mets are nothing like the early Yankees. Those Yankees did not spend on players like Beltran, Wagner & Delgado. The Mets did. Cashman, like him or not, has done about as good of a job as possible with the Yankees.
Oh, really? Tell me again how the Yankees acquired players like Cone, Martinez, Clemens, Wetteland and Knoblauch? Or how free agents like Boggs and Kenny Rogers were signed? And, how exactly were Wright, Reyes and Heilman acquired?

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jas, I will bet you an entire night of drinking at MSG that says that the Mets payroll will go up SIGNIFICANTLY from where this year started to where next year will begin.
Considering that the likes of trachsel, Floyd and El Duque are expected to come off the books, (as does the contract of Matsui), while Reyes and Wright's hit has been minimized due to their recent signings, I'd hardly use the term, "SIGNIFICANTLY".

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10-09-2006, 04:07 PM
  #171
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Please don't talk about legacies bwtn George and Wilpon.It's not even close
This post just about sums up the embodiment of the perception of most Yankee fans.

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10-09-2006, 04:49 PM
  #172
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My $.02

I think Cashman or Torre should be fired even though most of the blame should be focused on the players. I don't blame Torre because he's a small ball manager managing a bunch of sluggers and I don't fault Cashman because he's had to deal with Steinbrenner and his Tampa goons over the years. Sometimes you just need to shake things up and change the scenery and its easier to get change a GM or manager than 25 players.

And as much as Arod gets on my nerves, we wouldn't have made the playoffs without him last year. He's not totally useless...

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10-09-2006, 09:18 PM
  #173
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True Blue: I never disputed that other teams can win a World Series as the system currently stands. They can have a year or two in the sun (usually just one) before fading into oblivion once again. I said that the Yankees have bought a near permanent spot in the post season while teams like KC and Pitt have been nearly permanently removed from ever making it to the post season again under the current policy.

The fans who pay to see baseball in cities like that are idiots for supporting their teams so they come to the park and buy 10 dollar beers. Why anyone goes to a Baltimore or Blue Jays game is beyond me unless they enjoy rooting for something that can't happen. They would be better off buying lottery tickets.

Your view that baseball is healthy is because you live in NY and presumably root for the Yankees judging by your opinions. If I was a Yankees fan I'd think it was a great system also.

Every single season the Yankees go out and get the most highly thought of players by free agency or by making deals with teams making salary dumps. One of my buddies is a Yankees fan and he always talks about who will become available next so the Yankees can buy him. I believe he is currently in love with Santana.

The system is broken and eventually there will be a hard cap as has happened in the other sports. It is inevitable.

Meanwhile I have to listen to Yankees fans whine that they hate Rodriguez or Giambi or whomever is the current whipping boy and proclaim that they need role players that will move runners along. Then when free agency begins all these same "knowledgeable" Yankees fans clamor for another superstar.

Here in NY we are told how great it would be if the Yankees meet the Mets in the World Series. Last time it happened, national TV ratings fell into the toilet. We care in NY. The rest of the country yawns.

Torre is the single most overrated manager of my lifetime. He is dealt the best hand every single year and he won a couple of times. When he managed elsewhere he was a total zero. This worship of him and now bashing of him is funny. He didn't change. His pitching got worse.

It's impossible to judge Cashman's abilities as a GM because he is like Donald Trump's kid in a toy store. Whatever he wants he gets. He could be an idiot or great. No one knows.

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10-09-2006, 09:34 PM
  #174
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Caple needs to jump off a building or something already... how is he even a journalist? Why cant one of US get paid to do his job? Its ridiculous the trash the ESPN baseball "Columnists" [with the possible exception of Buster Olney] actually pollute the web with... but this one I HAD to read...

Its the most retarded thing Ive ever seen:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...t&lid=tab2pos1

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10-09-2006, 10:23 PM
  #175
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Caple needs to jump off a building or something already... how is he even a journalist? Why cant one of US get paid to do his job? Its ridiculous the trash the ESPN baseball "Columnists" [with the possible exception of Buster Olney] actually pollute the web with... but this one I HAD to read...

Its the most retarded thing Ive ever seen:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...t&lid=tab2pos1
I'm speechless.

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