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Are we there yet?

View Poll Results: ARE WE THERE YET??
No. We are far from making the Cup Finals 14 16.28%
No. We are at least 7 years away. 3 3.49%
No. We are 5-7 years away 15 17.44%
Yes. We will be playing for the cup in 3-5 years 39 45.35%
Yes. We will be playing for the Cup in 3 years 15 17.44%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-06-2013, 08:40 PM
  #26
Aceekay
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I'm gonna predict this becomes a 'price sucks' thread.

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Old
06-06-2013, 08:43 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
You compared 9 players to 9 players and gave a slight advantage to LA, ignoring the fact that Price doesn't compare at all to Quick and that the roster is 23 players meaning that in addition to that LA advantage the larger part of the roster needs to be upgraded.

Bergevin has some serious work to do.
Agnostic, I think you misspelled your name ... You meant to write annoyingestic. Yeah, just take off your price hate down a notch.

oh and read the first post you'll understand.

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Old
06-06-2013, 08:44 PM
  #28
couris
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
agreed to a point my friend

PK is our Chara or Doughty

Galchenyuk can be our Kopitar or Krejci

Pleks is solid but will never never be bergeron or Mike Richards Eller might one day

Price maybe one day will be Quick and or Rask or Tim Thomas , not as as of yet

But our D stinks ....too small , and not enough jam to compete past Emelin and PK

our fourth line is among the worst in hockey Colby , Moen and White cant carry
the jock straps of Paille, Thornton and Campbell

Gio , DD, Max right now are not Carter , Brown , Horton , Lucic, Marchand

yes we may have the possible 1D, 1G, 1C but many other pieces are not there
PK is not Chara, not even close.

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Old
06-06-2013, 08:45 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by couris View Post
PK is not Chara, not even close.
And chara is no pk

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Old
06-06-2013, 08:48 PM
  #30
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I wish some people would realize that they're not fans but actual haters.

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06-06-2013, 08:51 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
I wish some people would realize that they're not fans but actual haters.
They like to call themselves realistic fans.

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06-06-2013, 09:29 PM
  #32
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Most of these teams got there through conditions that are difficult to replicate under normal operation in Montreal.

Chicago would not be the same without having drafted Kane and Toews as high as they did, same goes for Pittsburgh with Crosby and Malkin, and from that point onward, it was always going to be easier to attract free agents; while Montreal got Galchenyuk, there would be hell to pay if the Habs finished in the cellar in this manner consecutive seasons.

Boston did a number of trades, many with Toronto, which were so one-sided that their cumulative effect looked like collusion.

LA had a number of trades that were also successful and gave them a lot of scoring depth that is both gritty and talented (the combination needed for playoffs), and drafted Doughty #2. If there is one team whose path to success can be a useful template, I would say it's LA.

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Old
06-06-2013, 09:44 PM
  #33
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Lots of great points here.

The Habs last two cups, 86 & 93, came thanks to Patrick Roy... Conn Smyth each time.

I see the Habs as a playoff team...

but no more cups in the cards.

Enjoy your beers on those Saturday night wins
Enjoy seeing the occasional draft pick blossom
Enjoy the occasional 2nd round series
Enjoy beating the Leafs and Flyers on occasion
Enjoy the goalie debates
Enjoy the draft

Forget about cups... you will only be frustrated like Canuck fans.

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Old
06-06-2013, 10:05 PM
  #34
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Two years.

In the goal: Price will have to deliver better. Hopefully, in the next two years, he will improve and have a better defense. The leadership of Gill on the ice helped him and I am hoping that Tinordi can replace him.

In defense, I felt we were not so bad till the injury to Emelin showed we are lacking on the physical side.
Tinordi, despite problems during PO, showed pretty good.

Defense
Markov, PK, Gorges, Emelin, Diaz and Tinordi is a very good base.

We need two more on the physical side among Dietz, Thrower, Didier, Ellis and Pateryn.
We also need at least another PMD: Beaulieu, Bennett and Nygren.
If only two of these 8 d-men can turn into top-6 NHL d-men in the next two years, we are set.
Seems Beaulieu will be there within two years and hoping Dietz will also be there.

Offense
On the offense, I feel we are getting there:
Eller, Glachenyuk, Gallagher, Pacioretty, Bourque are going to be in our top-6 in the next two years. There is some size there (including BG who plays 5 inches bigger).

Plekanec is certainly a top-6 and Desharnais is still an enigma.
He could jump to the next level or just be a top-9.

So we need two other players to be on our top-9. Kristo, Leblanc, Collberg, Bozon, Bournival, Hudon will all compete for that spot.

The need for size is obvious but we do need only one or two with skills.

Given our prospects, I feel we will have enough size/Skill in defense to be OK.

I know that the actual trend in NHL is about size, but I think that having three offensive lines can also turn to be a lethal tool.
The route for this team is the one followed by the Hawks.

Are we there yet: No.
In two years: maybe...

We won't have the opportunity to have others top-10 players for a while but our defense should be good if not great.
On the offense, the hope I see for us is to be able to ice 6 players scoring 60 points: Plekanec, Eller, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Desharnais and Pacioretty.
Add two more players with 50 points: Bourque + X and this team will be able to be a top contender.

Two pieces will be needed to this puzzle:
A physical d-men for one or two years till Tinordi and Dietz can be ready;
A physical third liner who can do the job that was expected of Moen.
We have two years to get those two players including trade deadline of 2015.

With Prust and Moen fourth line players who are borderline third line I feel good.
They were both top-9 for TOI during the PO (Eller gone).

To those who are worried about size, I will answer: PK, Tinordi, Emelin, Pacioretty, Eller, Galchenyuk, Bourque, Moen and Prust are not small.

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Old
06-06-2013, 10:38 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couris View Post
PK is not Chara, not even close.
On defense, I agree Chara is better but not even close is overstating.
The reach of Chara plus the fact that he is not hit is an advantage over PK.
On offense, I do expect PK to have many seasons over 60 points.
Chara can borderline put 50+ points, PK may have 70+ points.

Just thinking of a duo PK-Tinordi in two years.

Could be as good as:
  • Orpiks-Letang
  • Chara-Sedeinberg
  • Keith-Seabrook

In 10 years with TT, we only saw Habs once trade to get a higher pick.
He wanted Tinordi and we saw how good he was with McDonagh.
Given what we saw from Tinordi, I tend to agree, he did some errors but nothing that will not be solved with another 100 games in NHL.
Tinordi was bad for about 10 minutes in the PO against Ottawa, I am sure he has learned.

As for PK, he will be 26 in two years.
Young D-men in NHL are Letang, Yandle, Franson, Schultz, Voynov, OEL, Shattenkirk, Pietrangelo and Carlson.
Need to add Karlsson and Jones to that list.
If PK continues to evolve, he may be better than all these guys.
He is actually better than most, if not all these guys.

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Old
06-06-2013, 11:34 PM
  #36
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We have the core that MIGHT be a winning team in a couple of years.

Subban, Price, Max, Galchenyuk, Gallagher + whoever pans out from Tinordi, Beaulieu and this years' draft...

That's a pretty good core to move ahead with.

But we need to flesh out that lineup with size for sure and the D needs some help.

Would've been a lot better if we did a lot more rebuilding in the past but at this point we're just probably going to go ahead and build with what we've got. McDonnaugh would've been beautiful to add to what we have but it is what it is...

Gorges, Eller, Plecanek... they can all help for the future. But we need to get bigger if we want a cup. Size isn't everything but we're just too freaking small.

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Old
06-06-2013, 11:35 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couris View Post
PK is not Chara, not even close.
Totally different players.

And right now I'd take Subban. No disrespect to Chara (love the guy and nobody keeps his net clear like he does) but Subban is a hell of a lot more versatile.

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06-06-2013, 11:39 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by PyrettaBlaze View Post
Not even close.
Depends on how you look at it.

This next year coming up? You're probably right. In fact if we don't fix the D we could be in trouble again.

But the core just might be there for the future. We've got a really solid group of young players to build around. Yes the holes ARE there right now and we need to fix it. But it wouldn't surprise me at all to see a core of Subban, Gallagher, Price, Galchenyuk and Max leading us to a cup in a few years. That's a really good core of young players to go ahead with esp when you factor in some of the guys who will be coming up over the next couple of years.

A lot really depends on how good Galchenyuk turns out to be. Subban and Price are already elite level players. You add a forward to that mix who can pot 100 points and we'd be in really good shape.

Just too bad we wasted so many years when we could've been rebuilding...

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Old
06-06-2013, 11:55 PM
  #39
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Our back-end is up-and-coming with Subban, Tinordi, Beaulieu, and one of (Dietz, Ellis, Pateryn, Thrower, Nygren) in addition to Emelin, Gorges, and possibly Markov. A good solid vet signing for the next 3-4 years would be great. I think Diaz and Weber are expendable because I personally believe Beaulieu brings more to the table than both of them.

Our forwards aren't too shabby either with Pacioretty, Eller, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, and possibly one of (Kristo, Collberg, Leblanc, Hudon)

What do we need? Star quality forward. A "Subban-skilled" offensive threat.


I believe in Price.


There in 3 years, when Subban is 26-27 and carries the team on his back.

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06-07-2013, 12:10 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Price doesn't compare at all to Quick
Yet, Quick wasn't really good until 25 years old. Price is 25, he could have a rebound year. He has the potential.

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06-07-2013, 12:59 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Richiebottles View Post
Agreed, once Beaulieu,Tinordi,Collberg,Bozon and such develop along with the gained maturity of our core we will be ready.
It's not that simple.

Once those guys are developed, Plekanec, Gorges, Markov, Gionta, Prust, will be older or gone.

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06-07-2013, 03:39 AM
  #42
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It's not that simple.

Once those guys are developed, Plekanec, Gorges, Markov, Gionta, Prust, will be older or gone.
Which is why we should start rebuilding right now. Our current roster can easily contend for the top 4-5 spots in the east but we'll never be a cup contender because our team isnt built right for the playoffs. The only high value assets we currently have are markov and plek, we can afford to part ways with both of them because they most likely wont play an integral part in the team by the time our younger players step into their main roles. We'll most likely finish 10-15th for the next 2-3 years which is obviously fine because we'll be stacking up on high picks. Once we get past that we should have a solid cup contending team for several years to come, hopefully .


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06-07-2013, 04:11 AM
  #43
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I don't feel as if we're a cup contender, also spoket 't feel as if we're a bottom feeder. I think the shortened season played to our strengths and we got a little lucky. Unless we see big changes on our roster I'm quite sure we'll be resigned to fighting for the last playoff spot, especially with the realignment.

Personally, I'm sick of fighting for the 8 th spot every year and having garbage draft position. Unless we stick to the rebuild, I'm quite sure that's where we'll be for the next few years. I'm not encouraging tanking, I just want the team going in a different direction. Move the aging pieces while they have value and build around our young players. We just need to be patient and willing to see changes.

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06-07-2013, 04:16 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by TT1 View Post
Which is why we should start rebuilding right now. Our current roster can easily contend for the top 4-5 spots in the east but we'll never be a cup contender because our team isnt built right for the playoffs. The only high value assets we currently have are markov and plek, we can afford to part ways with both of them because they most likely wont play an integral part in the team by the time our younger players step into their main roles. We'll most likely finish 10-15th for the next 2-3 years which is obviously fine because we'll be stacking on high picks. Once we get past that we should have a solid cup contending team for several years to come, hopefully .
The time to tank and rebuild, ideally, was the 2012-2013 season. However, since Gallagher, Subban, and Galchenyuk exceeded expectations, we ended up finishing 2nd. If we were to tank during 2013-2014 and 2015-2016, we would be taking two steps back after having just taken a step forward.

With respect to Andrei Markov, we either re-sign him or we trade him. Right now the entire forum seems to believe Markov is garbage, I don't agree. I think he has declined from 1st pairing dman to 2nd pairing dman, but 2nd pairing dmen are still useful, he's still 1st pairing on the PP, and he was a little rusty and probably out of shape. I would certainly offer him 3 years @ 3.75 million.

If we trade him, it will be because both of Diaz and Beaulieu are exceeding expectations, and because the offer for Markov is satisfactory. We should not trade him for a pair of 2nd rounders. Alternatively, we might consider trading Diaz, and moving forward with Markov, Subban, and Beaulieu as our offensive dmen.

It is in no way a trivial decision.

The same is true of the Plekanec situation. It's not trivial, it's not obvious what to do. If we have Eller replace Plekanec as first unit of shutdown, that's a step down. We then have one of Dumont or Desharnais replace Eller as the shutdown unit, and that is an even bigger step down, we'll be giving up 5 or 6 goals per game. I think a vastly better option, is to have Plekanec be the 1st line center for all situations, have Galchenyuk be the 2nd line center on offense (with Desharnais as his winger), and Eller be the 2nd line center on defense. For us to even consider trading Plekanec, both of Galchenyuk and Eller need to show tremendous progress next year, a level of progress so vast that I honestly think they're unlikely to show. We would then need to receive a legitimate offer for Plekanec that is worth more than what Plekanec is worth to us if he spends the rest of his career here, at least a pair of 1st rounders.

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06-07-2013, 04:24 AM
  #45
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i feel like the whole makeup of the team needs a change, the sooner we restart the rebuilding process the sooner our picks can help us be contenders. i cant see us being contenders in the next 2-3 years with our current team, and by then both marky and plek are probably going to be on the decline. not sure about plek but i think theres little doubt that markov probably has 2-3 good seasons left in him


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06-07-2013, 04:35 AM
  #46
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i feel like the whole makeup of the team needs a change, the sooner we restart the rebuilding process the sooner our picks can help us be contenders. i cant see us being contenders in the next 2-3 years with our current team, and by then both marky and plek are probably going to be on the decline
In his second season,
- Stamkos went from 46 to 95 points;
- Tavares went from 54 to 67 points;
- Toews went from 54 to 69 points
- Seguin went from 22 to 67 points

Alex Galchenyuk had 27 points in 48 games, equivalent to 46 points in 82 games. We can't be sure, but he comes off as comparable to those guys. If he goes from 48 point production to 68 point production (realistic), then that is a huge, huge increase in overall team production.

Most importantly, however, we were ranked second in the conference this year in spite of significant injuries and in spite of our goalie having a below average year. Gallagher missed 4 of 48 games, Pacioretty missed 4 of 48 games, Subban missed 6 of 48 games, Prust and Emelin missed 10 of 48 games, Bourque missed 21 of 48 games, and Diaz missed 25 of 48 games. There will probably be new injuries next year, there always are. But I don't expect Price to have a .905 SV% again, nor do I expect Bergevin to do so little in the toughness department this UFA season that we totally collapse once Prust and Emelin are out.

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06-07-2013, 04:45 AM
  #47
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like ive been saying, production aside i dont think our team can grind through 4 playoff rounds to win the cup. i feel like theres a big difference between having a good regular season team and a good playoff team, were just too soft. christ have u seen our d-core?

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06-07-2013, 04:48 AM
  #48
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like ive been saying, production aside i dont think our team can grind through 4 playoff rounds to win the cup. i feel like theres a big difference between having a good regular season team and having a good playoff team, were just too soft. christ have u seen our d-core?
Drafting isn't going to help our D-core, as dmen, even dmen drafted in the 1st round, are often 3 to 4 years away from being effective at the NHL level, if ever.

What we need is for Bergevin to make an strategic UFA acquisition (e.g. Scuderi). We also need for Tinordi, Beaulieu, Pateryn, and Ellis to step uo their game in Hamilton next year. The latter is certain to happen as there are 4 guys. The former, is up to Bergevin, but very plausible.

By the way, our d-core has a Norris trophy finalist

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06-07-2013, 05:00 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Drafting isn't going to help our D-core, as dmen, even dmen drafted in the 1st round, are often 3 to 4 years away from being effective at the NHL level, if ever.

What we need is for Bergevin to make an strategic UFA acquisition (e.g. Scuderi). We also need for Tinordi, Beaulieu, Pateryn, and Ellis to step uo their game in Hamilton next year.

By the way, our d-core has a Norris trophy finalist
thats where markov and pleki come into play, apart for tinordi/subban/emelin we really dont have anyone that we'll be able to count on in 3-4 years. at the very least we'll need another solid top 2-4 D offencive D-man(which obviously isnt cheap), subban wont be able to carry the team on his own and beaulieu is still unproven. after that we can just round the d-core out with solid defencive d-mans


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06-07-2013, 05:24 AM
  #50
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thats where markov and pleki come into play, apart for tinordi/subban/emelin we really dont have anyone that we'll be able to count on in 3-4 years. at the very least we'll need another top 2-4 D offencive D-man, subban wont be able to carry the team on his own and beaulieu is still unproven. after that we can just round out the d-core with solid defencive d-mans
You've ignored my two main points on defense:

1) We can acquire a good dman through free agency. We've done it before, think of the impact that Roman Hamrlik had on our team between 2007 and 2011, arguably the best habs UFA signing of the past decade. Think of how Spacek and Gill helped us in the 2010 playoffs. Rob Scuderi and Douglas Murray are both good shots to go UFA this year. They are good options. We can also try Komisarek on a 1-year contract.
2) Prospects are never a sure thing, but we have four good ones in Hamilton: Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis, and Pateryn. As such, the odds we'll get at least one effective player, and probably two, is very high.

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