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Are we there yet?

View Poll Results: ARE WE THERE YET??
No. We are far from making the Cup Finals 14 16.28%
No. We are at least 7 years away. 3 3.49%
No. We are 5-7 years away 15 17.44%
Yes. We will be playing for the cup in 3-5 years 39 45.35%
Yes. We will be playing for the Cup in 3 years 15 17.44%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-07-2013, 05:29 AM
  #51
TT1
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You've ignored my two main points on defense:

1) We can acquire a good dman through free agency. We've done it before, think of the impact that Roman Hamrlik had on our team between 2007 and 2011, arguably the best habs UFA signing of the past decade. Think of how Spacek and Gill helped us in the 2010 playoffs. Rob Scuderi and Douglas Murray are both good shots to go UFA this year. They are good options. We can also try Komisarek on a 1-year contract.
2) Prospects are never a sure thing, but we have four good ones in Hamilton: Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis, and Pateryn. As such, the odds we'll get at least one effective player, and probably two, is very high.
how have i ignored it, i touched on every point. we can acquire solid d-man from free agency but you wont be able to find another player that'll come close to putting up markov-esque numbers, and if you do the chances of getting him are slim to none. u need to trade quality players/picks if u wanna get a stud top 2-4 offensive d-man


Last edited by TT1: 06-07-2013 at 05:42 AM.
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Old
06-07-2013, 09:04 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
read again ... : Im talking about our core.
P.k, Price, Plek,Patches, Eller, Chucky, Bourque, gally, emelin is not far off Doughty, Kopitar, Brown,Quick, Richards, Carter, Penner, Voynov and Williams..
lol, thanks for the morning chuckle.

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Old
06-07-2013, 09:17 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by McNuts View Post
Yet, Quick wasn't really good until 25 years old. Price is 25, he could have a rebound year. He has the potential.
That's true, but I wouldn't bother with this arguement. He's been biased by hate, I'm pretty sure Price ran his dog over or something.

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06-07-2013, 09:24 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We have the core that MIGHT be a winning team in a couple of years.

Subban, Price, Max, Galchenyuk, Gallagher + whoever pans out from Tinordi, Beaulieu and this years' draft...

That's a pretty good core to move ahead with.

But we need to flesh out that lineup with size for sure and the D needs some help.

Would've been a lot better if we did a lot more rebuilding in the past but at this point we're just probably going to go ahead and build with what we've got. McDonnaugh would've been beautiful to add to what we have but it is what it is...

Gorges, Eller, Plecanek... they can all help for the future. But we need to get bigger if we want a cup. Size isn't everything but we're just too freaking small.
I just chose to quote LG because it is the closest to my personal opinion. The Habs have a good core moving forward (albeit a young core...), but a weak supporting cast. The core itself has a good spread of skill, size and character. In 2015, when the UFA portion of the team turns over, hopefully the RFAs and new UFAs that are brought in to replace the existing ones are an improvement to the team. Physicality and the defense have to be addressed. They have already aquired the hardest pieces (Galchenyuk, Subban and Price) and have some of the supporting cast too (Gally, Patches, Tinordi, Eller and Beaulieu), but still have a ways to go.

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06-07-2013, 09:49 AM
  #55
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lol, thanks for the morning chuckle.
Here is the king of the pessimist

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Old
06-07-2013, 09:54 AM
  #56
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I don't think the team is all that far from being successful in the playoffs. This off-season is young and we will have to wait and see how management handles the draft and free agent period along with the use of the final compliance buyout which I would think is safely going to be Kaberle unless someone actually takes him.

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Old
06-07-2013, 10:10 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by schumway2 View Post
Personally, I don't think we can become a Penguins or Blackhawks because those are teams who got back to back high picks, and got superstars both times. It's very hard to replicate that. The path that the Bruins or Kings took is somewhat easier to duplicate. It takes time though. Hypothetically, we're still a good 3 or 4 years from being there. And that's if we do it right and hit on draft picks. It's an uphill climb for sure.

If we follow McGuire's 7 player profile:

2 Elite centermen: Galchenyuk (potentially), [empty]
1 power forward: Pacioretty (potenially)
1 versatile role player: Gallagher, Eller, Plekanec
1 great offensive defenceman: Subban
1 great stabilizing defenceman: [empty]
1 elite goaltender: Price (needs to play like one more often)

So we need: Galchenyuk to develop into that great #1 or #2 centerman, Pacioretty to develop into that drive the net PF, acquire another elite top 6 center, find a big physical presence on the backend and build around that.
I don't think you are using the same definition for players that Mcguire does. I mean he's said Chicago had 3 Elite centermen in Toews, Sharp and Bolland. If Sharp and Bolland are considered Elite then so should Plekanec and Eller. He's mentioned Markov would have been considered the stabilizing D pre-injury, which means Subban could be placed there and Markov could be the offensive D.

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Old
06-07-2013, 10:34 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couris View Post
PK is not Chara, not even close.
PK can do things offensively that Chara can't even contemplate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaker View Post
Our back-end is up-and-coming with Subban, Tinordi, Beaulieu, and one of (Dietz, Ellis, Pateryn, Thrower, Nygren) in addition to Emelin, Gorges, and possibly Markov. A good solid vet signing for the next 3-4 years would be great. I think Diaz and Weber are expendable because I personally believe Beaulieu brings more to the table than both of them.

Our forwards aren't too shabby either with Pacioretty, Eller, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, and possibly one of (Kristo, Collberg, Leblanc, Hudon)

What do we need? Star quality forward. A "Subban-skilled" offensive threat.


I believe in Price.


There in 3 years, when Subban is 26-27 and carries the team on his back.
I agree.

I find a lot of fans on here need to watch other teams.

Here is the current top 4 of the "final 4" teams...in order by minutes played/game...

Boston
Charra
Seidenberg
Boychuk
Ference

Pittsburgh
Letang
Martin
Orpik
Niskanen

Chicago
Keith
Hjalmarsson
Seabrook
Oduya

Los Angeles
Doughty
Scuderi
Voynov
Regehr


I look at what the Habs currently have top 5(Diaz and Emelin both played most of their minutes top 5) and don't see a big difference with those teams.

I watch those playoff games and the teams play a very defensive style and their d-men still give up very good chances, which 3 of the 4 teams are getting great goaltending so far. Vokoun has been at least good if not great. The play of our goalies was the issue in the playoffs a lot moreso than the defense. Obviously having Emelin would have helped, but those 4 guys can legitimately play top 4 minutes in the NHL.

Diaz to me is as good or better than guys like Niskanen, Oduya, Ference and not far off of Voynov(who's playing over his head these playoffs).

Gorges can compare to guys like Scuderi, Hjalmarsson and Boychuk.

Emelin is as physical or more than anybody on that list.

Subban is already a legit 1st pair guy.

Markov isn't all the way back, but solid comeback year in tough conditions(big minutes with no subban, plus condensed schedule). He may be better next year.

All that isn't taking into consideration guys like Beaulieu and Tinordi who are close. Plus Dietz Ellis Nygren and Bennett also in the picture.

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Old
06-07-2013, 10:43 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
In his second season,
- Stamkos went from 46 to 95 points;
- Tavares went from 54 to 67 points;
- Toews went from 54 to 69 points
- Seguin went from 22 to 67 points

Alex Galchenyuk had 27 points in 48 games, equivalent to 46 points in 82 games. We can't be sure, but he comes off as comparable to those guys. If he goes from 48 point production to 68 point production (realistic), then that is a huge, huge increase in overall team production.

Most importantly, however, we were ranked second in the conference this year in spite of significant injuries and in spite of our goalie having a below average year. Gallagher missed 4 of 48 games, Pacioretty missed 4 of 48 games, Subban missed 6 of 48 games, Prust and Emelin missed 10 of 48 games, Bourque missed 21 of 48 games, and Diaz missed 25 of 48 games. There will probably be new injuries next year, there always are. But I don't expect Price to have a .905 SV% again, nor do I expect Bergevin to do so little in the toughness department this UFA season that we totally collapse once Prust and Emelin are out.
Galchenyuk's scoring totals may spike upward, but its not likely to have a huge positive impact on team scoring.

He was one of the most efficent ES scorers in the league last year, only Crosby averages a better rate. So that I doubt he can repeat it even if he becomes a much better player. He could maintain his overall ES production due to ice time increase but exceeding it is unlikely.

So Gally's production increase would likely be getting regular PP minutes when he didn't in his rookie year. The thing is, PP production has a sharp opportunity cost, putting him in those minutes will reduce someone else's scoring. So while he'll likely be better than the guy he replaces by a decent amount, the net benefit to the team will be fairly small, especially because its harder to get better than a PP that was already so effective.

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Old
06-07-2013, 11:07 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
PK can do things offensively that Chara can't even contemplate.



I agree.

I find a lot of fans on here need to watch other teams.

Here is the current top 4 of the "final 4" teams...in order by minutes played/game...

Boston
Charra
Seidenberg
Boychuk
Ference

Pittsburgh
Letang
Martin
Orpik
Niskanen

Chicago
Keith
Hjalmarsson
Seabrook
Oduya

Los Angeles
Doughty
Scuderi
Voynov
Regehr


I look at what the Habs currently have top 5(Diaz and Emelin both played most of their minutes top 5) and don't see a big difference with those teams.

I watch those playoff games and the teams play a very defensive style and their d-men still give up very good chances, which 3 of the 4 teams are getting great goaltending so far. Vokoun has been at least good if not great. The play of our goalies was the issue in the playoffs a lot moreso than the defense. Obviously having Emelin would have helped, but those 4 guys can legitimately play top 4 minutes in the NHL.

Diaz to me is as good or better than guys like Niskanen, Oduya, Ference and not far off of Voynov(who's playing over his head these playoffs).

Gorges can compare to guys like Scuderi, Hjalmarsson and Boychuk.

Emelin is as physical or more than anybody on that list.

Subban is already a legit 1st pair guy.

Markov isn't all the way back, but solid comeback year in tough conditions(big minutes with no subban, plus condensed schedule). He may be better next year.

All that isn't taking into consideration guys like Beaulieu and Tinordi who are close. Plus Dietz Ellis Nygren and Bennett also in the picture.
Again, not even close.

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Old
06-07-2013, 12:50 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Here is the king of the pessimist
No, I just view the team without the rose colored glasses. You just compared the key players from a Stanely cup team, a team still in the final four this year, to our bumbling little club.

You overvalue our players, and undervalue the rest of the league, just like management has the last 20 years. Do you watch the Kings , and the players you lumped ours as being equal?

Quote:
P.k, Price, Plek,Patches, Eller, Chucky, Bourque, gally, emelin is not far off Doughty, Kopitar, Brown,Quick, Richards, Carter, Penner, Voynov and Williams..
While P.K and Doughty are similar, no question, the rest are still much better hockey players and have proven so. I personally don't like Penner that much, but the rest of the group bring such a nice mixture of size , sill and forechecking pressure that we simply do not have.

I'm also tired of people lumping Eller into some sort of Power Forward role, he never has been and never will be, and Patches is far from filling that role as well.

..oh, and the Price/Quick debate? lol? ... and not far back in this legendary threat, people are saying they would take P.K over Chara any day of the week.. .I seriously spit coffee all over the screen after these awesome comments.

I'm not trying to rip you apart, but this team's core just doesn't compare to the core in LA

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06-07-2013, 12:56 PM
  #62
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Again, not even close.
Go ask NHL front office people and pro scouts, they'll correct you. Clear case of the "grass being greener on the other side".

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06-07-2013, 12:58 PM
  #63
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I don't think you are using the same definition for players that Mcguire does. I mean he's said Chicago had 3 Elite centermen in Toews, Sharp and Bolland. If Sharp and Bolland are considered Elite then so should Plekanec and Eller. He's mentioned Markov would have been considered the stabilizing D pre-injury, which means Subban could be placed there and Markov could be the offensive D.
If Sharp was an elite centerman they wouldn't be playing Handzus at center on the 2nd line...same for Bolland. Solid player but hugely overrated because he played on a cup winner and had a strong playoffs.

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06-07-2013, 12:59 PM
  #64
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We aren't there yet but I do believe things are about to change and are going on the right track. I'm not even sure it's going to be next year but 2-3 years we are going to be a solid hockey team and a contender for years IMO

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06-07-2013, 01:51 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Go ask NHL front office people and pro scouts, they'll correct you. Clear case of the "grass being greener on the other side".
Hjalmarsson and scuderi are both much better than gorges

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06-07-2013, 02:08 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
While P.K and Doughty are similar, no question, the rest are still much better hockey players and have proven so. I personally don't like Penner that much, but the rest of the group bring such a nice mixture of size , sill and forechecking pressure that we simply do not have.
They definetly bring a more physical element, but really the only big difference in skill is Kopitar. If Galchenyuk can become his equal than the rest match up fairly well.

Plekanec has outscored Richards in 3 of the last 4 seasons
Pacioretty consistently outscores Brown
Gionta is a clear downgrade in goalscoring compared to Carter
Desharnais is another clear downgrade compared to Williams but not that much as Williams is a 0.73ppg over the last 3 years, Desharnais is at 0.63.
Bourque is a clear upgrade over Penner

And this is excluding Eller, Gallagher which is a clear upgrade over Stoll & Lewis.

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06-07-2013, 02:28 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Aceekay View Post
Hjalmarsson and scuderi are both much better than gorges

...and you saying so on a messageboard proves it?

Similar playes playing similar roles. Not sure how they are much better than him. Please enlighten me.

He is as good defensively as them in terms of playing mistake free, blocking shots and being strong on the PK. None of the 3 are over the top physical but they take the body.

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06-07-2013, 02:52 PM
  #68
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I think in 4 years when we have healed financially from poor free agent signings, gally and chucky hit their prime, Price is seasoned, Suban improves even further and Bergivin adds size and actual good free agent signings we will be there. Maybe 3 years if we are lucky

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06-07-2013, 04:47 PM
  #69
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I posted a poll to help see where we all stand

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06-07-2013, 05:13 PM
  #70
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I was thinking 2-3 years but it is not among the choices.

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06-07-2013, 05:34 PM
  #71
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We have a good team, but it's poorly balanced. I'm not in favour of gooning it up, but we would need to get a little bigger and grittier.

I love Plek, Gionta, Desharnais, Gallagher, but we need to switch one with someone less talented but that can hit. Obviously someone like Lucic would go a long way, but there's too few of those. I hate Horton with a passion, but would love to see him replace Ryder. Our 4th line needs to get bigger too.

And it's even worst on the D. If Emelin's out, we have nothing remotely physical apart from Subban (not his job) and Bouillon (7th D that can hit but he's still 5'7'' and old).

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06-07-2013, 05:48 PM
  #72
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The mix isn't quite right.

The shortcut is for Price to find a level that we haven't seen yet. That can mask alot of other shortcomings.

But the more likely route requires more ruggedness. The top 6 is not rugged enough. I don't worry about the bottom 6 ruggedness as much because those guys are easier to find, but when David Clarkson gets his new contract this summer, it will reflect just how much in demand a rugged top 6 winger really is. This will be Bergevin's toughest task.

Aside from that, the D requires a more rugged touch, especially when you get down to the 3rd pairing. Tinordi may be an answer here, but we got to be mindful of his developmental path, and as much as I admire Bouillon's courage, he's aging, and he can get in trouble when he cant use the boards to his advantage.

Other than that, I'm happy with the mix of youth, veteran and talent level. I find the majority of the guys on the squad to have a good compete level too. Now, its just a matter of continuing to add in the character department, and to find those elusive top 6 bulldozers to compliment what the habs already have. Bergevin's ability to address this issue will likely determine how long the habs are from becoming a contender.

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06-07-2013, 05:58 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
The mix isn't quite right.

The shortcut is for Price to find a level that we haven't seen yet. That can mask alot of other shortcomings.

But the more likely route requires more ruggedness. The top 6 is not rugged enough. I don't worry about the bottom 6 ruggedness as much because those guys are easier to find, but when David Clarkson gets his new contract this summer, it will reflect just how much in demand a rugged top 6 winger really is. This will be Bergevin's toughest task.

Aside from that, the D requires a more rugged touch, especially when you get down to the 3rd pairing. Tinordi may be an answer here, but we got to be mindful of his developmental path, and as much as I admire Bouillon's courage, he's aging, and he can get in trouble when he cant use the boards to his advantage.

Other than that, I'm happy with the mix of youth, veteran and talent level. I find the majority of the guys on the squad to have a good compete level too. Now, its just a matter of continuing to add in the character department, and to find those elusive top 6 bulldozers to compliment what the habs already have. Bergevin's ability to address this issue will likely determine how long the habs are from becoming a contender.
I obviously agree. MaxPac and Bourque can be physical, but they don't have a mean streak.

As I said, I'd love to get Horton to replace Ryder, but I'm not sure he would be as confident without Lucic and Chara beside him to back him up.

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06-07-2013, 06:00 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
The mix isn't quite right.

The shortcut is for Price to find a level that we haven't seen yet. That can mask alot of other shortcomings.

But the more likely route requires more ruggedness. The top 6 is not rugged enough. I don't worry about the bottom 6 ruggedness as much because those guys are easier to find, but when David Clarkson gets his new contract this summer, it will reflect just how much in demand a rugged top 6 winger really is. This will be Bergevin's toughest task.

Aside from that, the D requires a more rugged touch, especially when you get down to the 3rd pairing. Tinordi may be an answer here, but we got to be mindful of his developmental path, and as much as I admire Bouillon's courage, he's aging, and he can get in trouble when he cant use the boards to his advantage.

Other than that, I'm happy with the mix of youth, veteran and talent level. I find the majority of the guys on the squad to have a good compete level too. Now, its just a matter of continuing to add in the character department, and to find those elusive top 6 bulldozers to compliment what the habs already have. Bergevin's ability to address this issue will likely determine how long the habs are from becoming a contender.
Rugged is all well and good, but if you look at what this team lacks from an offensive perspective it isn't scoring from in close. They have quite a bit of that which people aren't giving them credit for because two of them are short (but no less effective scoring next to the net for it).

What really stands out is how few guys are dangerous from medium distance. Only Pacioretty and Plekanec are a significant offensive threat from range, although maybe Galchenyuk turns into that.

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Old
06-07-2013, 06:12 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Rugged is all well and good, but if you look at what this team lacks from an offensive perspective it isn't scoring from in close. They have quite a bit of that which people aren't giving them credit for because two of them are short (but no less effective scoring next to the net for it).

What really stands out is how few guys are dangerous from medium distance. Only Pacioretty and Plekanec are a significant offensive threat from range, although maybe Galchenyuk turns into that.
Yes, the team does miss that sniper element, but I also like the 3 line offensive balance. By rugged, I mean guys who are made for the playoff grind. Out of all the leagues, I think the nhl post season differs more than the regular than any other sport. We have to be mindful of the kinds of players who tend to elevate their game, or are primed for the playoff format, to compliment what the team already has.

I think if you can locate these rugged, character guys, the "size issue" will slowly fizzle away, or take care of itself.

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