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2013-14 Flyers Overhaul Part II

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Old
06-07-2013, 12:53 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Edit: What part of Lavi's system makes it impossible for Bryz to make himself square to shots, have good positioning, make an attempt to see through screens, or stop unscreened blue line shots?
It's the media's fault don't you know...

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06-07-2013, 01:04 PM
  #327
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Have the guts?? We have the gm with the biggest balls of any in the NHL. You know why he doesn't pull the trigger, because it makes no sense to do it. You rarely see teams trade potential for potential. Generally you see established for potential++. Couts for a prospect defenseman would be the dumbest asset management. Defenseman take longer to develop and also have a much higher bust rate. Why trade our best defensive forward who still has an high offensive ceiling for someone who will more than likely bust even if our FO likes him.

Look everyone understands the flyers need defenseman in their prospect pool. It's no secret, but when you start reaching for players because of a need, you make bad picks. Then when those players don't develop like everyone wants them to, people get mad we took him there. You need to go best player to ensure the best chance the player has to succeed.
You are right. I corrected my post.
I was not thinking clearly when I submitted it.
I do not think we should trade Couturier for a defensive prospect,
that might not become top four defenseman.

I would be in favor of trading Coots for an established top offensive defenseman.

Laughton is a different situation, its prospect for prospect if we trade him.

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06-07-2013, 01:24 PM
  #328
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Trading Couturier for anything fixes one problem by creating another.

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06-07-2013, 01:47 PM
  #329
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That has no relevance to the fact that Laviolette's system is a goaltenders nightmare.
Especially for ones that duck under shots.

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06-07-2013, 02:08 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Trading Couturier for anything fixes one problem by creating another.
What problem does it create? It's not as if there are no options to take over 3C duties. They may not be as good as Couturier, but I don't think it would be a problem (unless they send Rosehill out there).

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06-07-2013, 02:14 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Trading Couturier for anything fixes one problem by creating another.
If the return is anything less than a true #1, then the net defensive value probably drops. Couts logs some wildly heavy lifted minutes. If those minutes are replaced by a PMD or simply a #2 -- in theory the defense gets worse, not better.

I suppose the only argument out of that would be that a PMD will assist defensively by better puck transition, but down the middle the Flyers get a lot worse. G can't do it-- Schenn isn't ready. Puts a lot of faith in 3C and 4C -- and removes defensive strength from the future top lines (if we assume that eventually Couts would be 2C).

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06-07-2013, 02:21 PM
  #332
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Especially for ones that duck under shots.
This/ I still cant believe he did that!!

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06-07-2013, 02:43 PM
  #333
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What problem does it create? It's not as if there are no options to take over 3C duties. They may not be as good as Couturier, but I don't think it would be a problem (unless they send Rosehill out there).
You're still underestimating how good Couturier has been defensively. There is nobody on the team or in the system who comes close to touching him. According to Appleyard's stats, there aren't even that many centers in the league who do.

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If the return is anything less than a true #1, then the net defensive value probably drops. Couts logs some wildly heavy lifted minutes. If those minutes are replaced by a PMD or simply a #2 -- in theory the defense gets worse, not better.

I suppose the only argument out of that would be that a PMD will assist defensively by better puck transition, but down the middle the Flyers get a lot worse. G can't do it-- Schenn isn't ready. Puts a lot of faith in 3C and 4C -- and removes defensive strength from the future top lines (if we assume that eventually Couts would be 2C).
Yep...and you NEED a center like Couturier to win a Cup. Some people seem to be forgetting that in their tunnel-visioned vision quest for a #1 D of any sort. Datsyuk, Staal, Bergeron, Richards, Toews, Pahlsson, Brind'Amour...all the recent teams have had their very good defensive center.

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06-07-2013, 02:50 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post

How do you explain how the team STILL managed to play competent defense after losing Lappy, Betts, and Pronger to injury in 2010-2011? How did a rookie goalie manage to thrive in this oh-so-flawed system that no goalie can thrive in during that time?
Among goalies who had at least 1000 saves that season, Bobrovsky ranked 18th out of 31 goalies in save percentage. I wouldn't exactly say that's thriving.

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06-07-2013, 02:51 PM
  #335
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Among goalies who had at least 1000 saves that season, Bobrovsky ranked 18th out of 31 goalies in save percentage. I wouldn't exactly say that's thriving.
Because he hit the rookie wall in a very stressful and trying situation. When he was still strong and the team was taking hits to their defensive players, he still did well in the system. He was in the Calder discussion for a long time for a reason.

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06-07-2013, 03:00 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're still underestimating how good Couturier has been defensively. There is nobody on the team or in the system who comes close to touching him. According to Appleyard's stats, there aren't even that many centers in the league who do.
I'm not underestimating anything. I know he is good. I know he is probably the best defensive forward on this team. No argument here. But what I am saying is that his replacement, even if not as good, will not be a "problem" for this team. It's not like his replacement isn't going to be able to handle basic third line center duties. They aren't going to replace him with Jody Shelley. Even if his replacement is just average in a defensive capacity, there would not be a problem for the Flyers. Plus you have to factor in the play of the defender that the Flyers would acquire. The increased play on the blueline would even things out, no?

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06-07-2013, 03:01 PM
  #337
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So yeah, if the Flyers can somehow find another Pronger and add an effective Timonen replacement to go with Schenn and Coburn and just ride those 4 guys ignoring a 3rd pairing then yeah, Lavy's system is golden.

.

so i ask again, if we have to go to that length on a bullet proof D, what was the point in bringing in the 51M$ man..

we could just as easily brought in a cheaper option to man the pipes at that point..

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06-07-2013, 03:07 PM
  #338
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I'm not underestimating anything. I know he is good. I know he is probably the best defensive forward on this team. No argument here. But what I am saying is that his replacement, even if not as good, will not be a "problem" for this team. It's not like his replacement isn't going to be able to handle basic third line center duties. They aren't going to replace him with Jody Shelley. Even if his replacement is just average in a defensive capacity, there would not be a problem for the Flyers. Plus you have to factor in the play of the defender that the Flyers would acquire. The increased play on the blueline would even things out, no?
If his replacement is just average, there IS going to be a problem. He isn't "probably" the best defensive forward on the team, he is far and away the best defensive forward and it's not really close. You know how the forward corps stuggled on defense? Imagine that being worse. The defensemen can only do so much to compensate for that. The #1 D returned isn't going to magically make the forwards pay better attention to their assignments or the passing lanes, or make them better at not turning the puck over in the neutral zone. The PK would also get noticeably worse. Hell, look at Chara; when he's on his game, he isn't doing it alone. He gets support, too. Same for Weber, Doughty, Suter, etc. It's certainly not a given that whoever comes back will automatically compensate for the loss of Coot's skill.

If Homer decides to fill one hole by digging a new one, I am going to eat bath salts until I eat my own face. It would be the very epitome of what is wrong with this organization: impatience.

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06-07-2013, 03:17 PM
  #339
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06-07-2013, 03:36 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If his replacement is just average, there IS going to be a problem. He isn't "probably" the best defensive forward on the team, he is far and away the best defensive forward and it's not really close. You know how the forward corps stuggled on defense? Imagine that being worse. The defensemen can only do so much to compensate for that. The #1 D returned isn't going to magically make the forwards pay better attention to their assignments or the passing lanes, or make them better at not turning the puck over in the neutral zone. The PK would also get noticeably worse. Hell, look at Chara; when he's on his game, he isn't doing it alone. He gets support, too. Same for Weber, Doughty, Suter, etc. It's certainly not a given that whoever comes back will automatically compensate for the loss of Coot's skill.

If Homer decides to fill one hole by digging a new one, I am going to eat bath salts until I eat my own face. It would be the very epitome of what is wrong with this organization: impatience.
I think you are really over emphasizing Couturier's play under emphasizing the play of the defense. Couturier is #1 defensive forward. No argument here. But I think you are overstating his greatness. I'm not saying he isn't good. I am not saying the guy that replaces him will be better or even as good. What I am saying is that there are a number of competent third line centers that could be signed or traded for or may even be in this very organization (Laughton, perhaps). Those guys are not going to be as good as Couturier. I agree. 100% not claiming they will. Not insinuating they will. They won't be. Worst case scenario, his replacement is average. Let's say a guy like Darrol Powe (not suggesting they get him, but just a guy that is of that skill set that most people are aware of). Powe was good on defense. I'd rate him as a solid defender. Can play PK and can take the heat defensively. Is he as good as Couturier? Not a chance. Would I be nervous with a player like Darrol Powe as the 3C and on the PK unit because he is not Couturier? No, I would not, especially when you factor in that there would be a pretty substantial upgrade on the blueline.

Of course, if the Flyers have to give up Couturier and something of value for this hypothetical defender, and they were to replace Couturier with some scrub on the third line, that would be a different story.

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06-07-2013, 03:41 PM
  #341
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I think you are really over emphasizing Couturier's play under emphasizing the play of the defense. Couturier is #1 defensive forward. No argument here. But I think you are overstating his greatness. I'm not saying he isn't good. I am not saying the guy that replaces him will be better or even as good. What I am saying is that there are a number of competent third line centers that could be signed or traded for or may even be in this very organization (Laughton, perhaps). Those guys are not going to be as good as Couturier. I agree. 100% not claiming they will. Not insinuating they will. They won't be. Worst case scenario, his replacement is average. Let's say a guy like Darrol Powe (not suggesting they get him, but just a guy that is of that skill set that most people are aware of). Powe was good on defense. I'd rate him as a solid defender. Can play PK and can take the heat defensively. Is he as good as Couturier? Not a chance. Would I be nervous with a player like Darrol Powe as the 3C and on the PK unit because he is not Couturier? No, I would not, especially when you factor in that there would be a pretty substantial upgrade on the blueline.

Of course, if the Flyers have to give up Couturier and something of value for this hypothetical defender, and they were to replace Couturier with some scrub on the third line, that would be a different story.
Who will be this substantial upgrade on defense? As good as Couturier is, he's not worth any of the #1 Dmen in the league on his own, not the sort of guy we'd need to fix all our defensive woes and cover for the loss of Couturier...so we're looking to pay a lot. However, he's certainly worth more to this team than a #2-4 guy. Is it really worth it? I really don't think it is.

I think what it comes down to is that trading for a #1 simply is not the path to success at this point. Patience, for once, is something the organization should give a shot. Who knows, maybe it'll work. Making drastic changes year after year certainly hasn't.

Edit: This all reminds me of the people who poo-pooed the loss of Richards' and Carter's defensive skill. The team ended up being noticeably worse on D, and Couturier is the one guy who really held the dam up on that front. So...now we want to get rid of him? What do we suppose will happen then?

Edit 2: As I've been saying, look at Cup winning teams. They all have someone like Couturier. He's one of the pieces this team needs if they want to win anything. Trading him to get another one of those pieces doesn't really take us closer to the end goal...it's a sideways step at best.


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06-07-2013, 04:02 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Who will be this substantial upgrade on defense? As good as Couturier is, he's not worth any of the #1 Dmen in the league on his own, not the sort of guy we'd need to fix all our defensive woes and cover for the loss of Couturier...so we're looking to pay a lot. However, he's certainly worth more to this team than a #2-4 guy. Is it really worth it? I really don't think it is.

I think what it comes down to is that trading for a #1 simply is not the path to success at this point. Patience, for once, is something the organization should give a shot. Who knows, maybe it'll work. Making drastic changes year after year certainly hasn't.
I don't think trading Couturier is a drastic change. A change, for sure, but not a drastic one. I think Couturier could be part of a deal to get a Yandle or a Shattenkirk or even a Pietrangelo. What else would be involved, I don't know. Which is why I have said that there are other factors out there I would consider and I am not simply saying TRADE COUTURIER HE SUCKS. But I think getting Yandle, who people seem to think is not all that great, and pushing one of Mez or Gus out of the lineup greatly improves this team's defnsive corps. Again, I understand that his defnsive skills will be missed from the top 9, but not to the point where every time the third line is out there or every time the other team's top line is out there we are going to be saying "OMG what are we going to do since Couturier is gone!"

Quote:
Edit: This all reminds me of the people who poo-pooed the loss of Richards' and Carter's defensive skill. The team ended up being noticeably worse on D, and Couturier is the one guy who really held the dam up on that front. So...now we want to get rid of him? What do we suppose will happen then?
I think those are two different situations. Carter and Richards were dealt and nothing involving defense replaced them really. The blueline was not improved and Couturier wasn't really at the top of his game for his entire first year, though he certainly didn't play poorly by any means.

Quote:
Edit 2: As I've been saying, look at Cup winning teams. They all have someone like Couturier. He's one of the pieces this team needs if they want to win anything. Trading him to get another one of those pieces doesn't really take us closer to the end goal...it's a sideways step at best.
I think someone could be found to play 3C adequately to be considered that type of player. Again, not as good or better than Couturier, but on the same level as a John Madden or Michal Handzus who were on recent Cup winning teams that I believe played that role for their respective teams. I agree with you, if they put some peice of crap out there, then no it is not a smart move. But if they can find someone to hold their own, I don't think there will be a problem.

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06-07-2013, 04:21 PM
  #343
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Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree over our usual philosophical differences. I'm of the opinion that Couturier is a key core piece who should be built around, not a disposable asset to be used as trade bait. Players like him aren't that common and he's still years away from his prime.

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06-07-2013, 04:27 PM
  #344
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Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree over our usual philosophical differences. I'm of the opinion that Couturier is a key core piece who should be built around, not a disposable asset to be used as trade bait. Players like him aren't that common and he's still years away from his prime.
Heh, Bizarro world...normally I agree with DFF, but I'm with you on this.

Nobody should worry about if we can replace Couts today, thats not why we should keep him. We should keep him because he is going to turn into ALOT more than a 3rd line D specialist.

For the amount of love Richards still gets around here, we have a MUCH more talented version of him at age 20 right now.

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06-07-2013, 04:30 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree over our usual philosophical differences. I'm of the opinion that Couturier is a key core piece who should be built around, not a disposable asset to be used as trade bait. Players like him aren't that common and he's still years away from his prime.
I think I was pretty clear that I don't think that Couturier is a disposable asset that should be used as trade bait. I said that if he can be part of a deal that would improve this team I would do it. I have said many times that if we had to add to any deal involving a defender, I wouldn't do it if it was anything of value. I also said that if his replacement was going to be some schmuck I wouldn't do it. But if the Flyers can get a top pairing defender for him, and replace him with an adequate 3C, I would do it.

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06-07-2013, 04:31 PM
  #346
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so i ask again, if we have to go to that length on a bullet proof D, what was the point in bringing in the 51M$ man..

we could just as easily brought in a cheaper option to man the pipes at that point..
We should have brought in a cheaper option..and Bryz certainly hasn't played up to his contract...but no goalie we have is going to be leading the league in stats with our horrendous effort on team defense.

Say what you want about "carrying" the goalie, but statistically Bryz played ALOT better for ANH (deep in the playoffs mind you) and PHX.

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06-07-2013, 04:32 PM
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I think I was pretty clear that I don't think that Couturier is a disposable asset that should be used as trade bait. I said that if he can be part of a deal that would improve this team I would do it. I have said many times that if we had to add to any deal involving a defender, I wouldn't do it if it was anything of value. I also said that if his replacement was going to be some schmuck I wouldn't do it. But if the Flyers can get a top pairing defender for him, and replace him with an adequate 3C, I would do it.
See, I don't think we get the sort of defenseman we're expecting for just Couturier though. That kind of Dman is at a huge premium right now.

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06-07-2013, 04:35 PM
  #348
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See, I don't think we get the sort of defenseman we're expecting for just Couturier though. That kind of Dman is at a huge premium right now.
Exactly...there are no young #1s available.

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06-07-2013, 04:37 PM
  #349
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The worst thing about Couturier is that the head coach doesn't view him as nothing more than a 3rd line center. Until that changes and Laviolette starts realizing what a fantastic and smart hockey player he has, Couturier is always going to get buried. Some mention him as a Bergeron-type of player, but I think if Couturier were given an offensive role, he might just be a Ron Francis type of player. But once again, the problem is the head coach who just doesn't view Couturier as anything more than a 3rd line player.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the Flyers should move Giroux to the wing and use Couturier as the top line center. Giroux would be shielded from having to perform the defensive related duties that come with being a center and would get to focus on generating offense on the wing. Couturier and his big body would be much more suited for that role of the top line center and the defensive assignments and duties related to that position. Couturier would also get the much needed opportunity to develop his offensive game playing alongside Giroux and Voracek. You then move Fartnell to the second line with Schenn and Simmonds and have Laughton center the third line with Read and Talbot/Gagne/Whoever the Flyers decide to sign to fill that third line spot.

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06-07-2013, 04:39 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree over our usual philosophical differences. I'm of the opinion that Couturier is a key core piece who should be built around, not a disposable asset to be used as trade bait. Players like him aren't that common and he's still years away from his prime.
Thank you. Agree 100%. We really should just keep Couturier. I really think he's going to develop into another Bergeron.

With Giroux's talent, Schenn's grit, Cout's everything, and Laughton's speed and tenacity, we're going to be all set at centre for years to come.

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