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2013-14 Flyers Overhaul Part II

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06-07-2013, 03:44 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
But once again, the problem is the head coach who just doesn't view Couturier as anything more than a 3rd line player.
I'm not so sure thats entirely true. Couts has been a little "slow". I think he's thinking too much, the "speed of the game" and whatnot. We had no camp last year.

I think he benefits from having a little more time to catch up to the game down on the 3rd line, and not being expected for his offense.

Patience is the key....just be patient.

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06-07-2013, 03:52 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think you are really over emphasizing Couturier's play under emphasizing the play of the defense. Couturier is #1 defensive forward. No argument here. But I think you are overstating his greatness. I'm not saying he isn't good. I am not saying the guy that replaces him will be better or even as good. What I am saying is that there are a number of competent third line centers that could be signed or traded for or may even be in this very organization (Laughton, perhaps). Those guys are not going to be as good as Couturier. I agree. 100% not claiming they will. Not insinuating they will. They won't be. Worst case scenario, his replacement is average. Let's say a guy like Darrol Powe (not suggesting they get him, but just a guy that is of that skill set that most people are aware of). Powe was good on defense. I'd rate him as a solid defender. Can play PK and can take the heat defensively. Is he as good as Couturier? Not a chance. Would I be nervous with a player like Darrol Powe as the 3C and on the PK unit because he is not Couturier? No, I would not, especially when you factor in that there would be a pretty substantial upgrade on the blueline.

Of course, if the Flyers have to give up Couturier and something of value for this hypothetical defender, and they were to replace Couturier with some scrub on the third line, that would be a different story.
We need to upgrade this defense, they have little offensive ability.
If we do not trade Couturier for a top defenseman,
how are we going to acquire one?

He is our most coveted player, and I think on our boards
most overrated. He is a defensive center, not Crosby.
LOL. They drafted his replacement Laughton, last year.

Our other options for acquiring top defensive talent are not promising.
FA or RFA signing, not likely, failed last year.
Trade Laughton for NHL ready top defenseman, not likely.
Probably could get a defensive prospect, not useful this year.
Trade Vorachek or Giroux, not likely.
Unless Holmgren goes totally braindead.
We could trade both of the Schenn brothers as a package,
doubt they trade just Brayden.
This trade weakens team too much for a single defenseman.

The only other option would be to trade our #11 pick for top defenseman.
I would entertain this option if the player we get is an established
top defenseman.

With the skill our team has in selecting centers in the draft,
we should be able to draft a good defensive center to replace
Couturier, if needed.

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06-07-2013, 03:52 PM
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
I'm not so sure thats entirely true. Couts has been a little "slow". I think he's thinking too much, the "speed of the game" and whatnot. We had no camp last year.

I think he benefits from having a little more time to catch up to the game down on the 3rd line, and not being expected for his offense.

Patience is the key....just be patient.
Oh, I get what you're saying. I'm not ready to give up on Couturier because I really do think he's going to end up being more valuable than Giroux in three more seasons.

With that being said, I'm really worried that Laviolette is strangling Couturier's development and confidence. I've never seen one player in which a coach has continually made him a scapegoat the way Couturier has been made by Laviolette. He misses a defensive assignment, he gets benched. He misses an offensive scoring chance, he gets benched. Hartnell does crap like that all the time and gets top power play billing and ice time.

To me, Laviolette is the root problem and he's got to go. I really think the guy's a moron and is just completely unable to adapt to the roster he has and is the first person to point fingers everywhere else but himself.

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06-07-2013, 04:18 PM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
We need to upgrade this defense, they have little offensive ability.
If we do not trade Couturier for a top defenseman,
how are we going to acquire one?


He is our most coveted player, and I think on our boards
most overrated. He is a defensive center, not Crosby.
LOL. They drafted his replacement Laughton, last year.

Our other options for acquiring top defensive talent are not promising.
FA or RFA signing, not likely, failed last year.
Trade Laughton for NHL ready top defenseman, not likely.
Probably could get a defensive prospect, not useful this year.
Trade Vorachek or Giroux, not likely.
Unless Holmgren goes totally braindead.
We could trade both of the Schenn brothers as a package,
doubt they trade just Brayden.
This trade weakens team too much for a single defenseman.

The only other option would be to trade our #11 pick for top defenseman.
I would entertain this option if the player we get is an established
top defenseman.

With the skill our team has in selecting centers in the draft,
we should be able to draft a good defensive center to replace
Couturier, if needed.
The draft, like every other team. That kind of defenseman, the kind that is actually worthwhile, doesn't get moved unless it's for an overpayment.

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06-07-2013, 04:20 PM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
We need to upgrade this defense, they have little offensive ability.
If we do not trade Couturier for a top defenseman,
how are we going to acquire one?

He is our most coveted player, and I think on our boards
most overrated. He is a defensive center, not Crosby.
LOL. They drafted his replacement Laughton, last year.

Our other options for acquiring top defensive talent are not promising.
FA or RFA signing, not likely, failed last year.
Trade Laughton for NHL ready top defenseman, not likely.
Probably could get a defensive prospect, not useful this year.
Trade Vorachek or Giroux, not likely.
Unless Holmgren goes totally braindead.
We could trade both of the Schenn brothers as a package,
doubt they trade just Brayden.
This trade weakens team too much for a single defenseman.

The only other option would be to trade our #11 pick for top defenseman.
I would entertain this option if the player we get is an established
top defenseman.

With the skill our team has in selecting centers in the draft,
we should be able to draft a good defensive center to replace
Couturier, if needed.
So wait, are you agreeing with me? Haha.

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06-07-2013, 04:22 PM
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
We need to upgrade this defense, they have little offensive ability. If we do not trade Couturier for a top defenseman, how are we going to acquire one?
Simple. You draft and develop one. Top tier defenders simply are not traded. If they are, it's because the teams involved trading have received what they believe is another top defender in return (See Erik Johnson/Kevin Shattenkirk trade), said defender no longer wants to be with the organization (Chris Pronger being traded from Edmonton to Anaheim), said club is going to rebuild and they feel they won't be able to re-sign said defenseman (Chris Pronger being traded from St. Louis to Edmonton and then Anaheim to Philadelphia; Rob Blake from Los Angeles to Colorado, Ray Bourque to Colorado, etc...) or said defenseman is going to be a free agent and the club he was with feels that they won't be able to re-sign him and are looking to recoup something for the loss (Kimmo Timonen being traded from Nashville to Philadelphia). Trading Couturier will not land a top defenseman. People need to stop thinking that Couturier + a first is going to land a top 2 defenseman. It's simply not happening. Top 2 defensemen are drafted and developed. Look around the league. You don't see top pairing guys simply being moved.

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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
He is our most coveted player, and I think on our boards most overrated. He is a defensive center, not Crosby. LOL. They drafted his replacement Laughton, last year.
Over rated? Couturier is disgustlingly under rated because of the job he's been assigned to do. People can say what they want, but a checking line center is quite possible the hardest and most under appreciated job there is. There's no headlines with taking that job, you're facing the best team's line every night, you're always starting a defensive disadvantage and you never get the pretty stat lines that the top two lines get. It's the hardest and most difficult position to master. While it's true you can't teach offense, but you can teach defense, you certainly cannot teach Selke caliber defensive play - and that's what Couturier brings to the table as a 20 year old. No other 20 year old (jeez, you could make a case that Couturier as 20 year old is probably more defensively sound than 70 to 80% of the forwards in the league and that's saying some) does what Couturier does. If Couturier wasn't in Philadelphia, this club would be in a world of trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Our other options for acquiring top defensive talent are not promising. FA or RFA signing, not likely, failed last year.
Trade Laughton for NHL ready top defenseman, not likely. Probably could get a defensive prospect, not useful this year. Trade Vorachek or Giroux, not likely.
Unless Holmgren goes totally brain dead. We could trade both of the Schenn brothers as a package, doubt they trade just Brayden. This trade weakens team too much for a single defenseman.
Once again, you aren't getting a top tier defenseman for a prospect. Teams just simply don't trade top pairing defensemen. They just don't. Your elite defenders that play 25 to 30 minutes a night in all situations don't get moved. Period.

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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
The only other option would be to trade our #11 pick for top defenseman. I would entertain this option if the player we get is an established top defenseman.
Once again, nobody is trading a top pairing defenseman for the number 11 pick. You aren't getting a Shattenkirk, Yandle (and some would say that he's not even a top tier defender), or just about anyone else for the number 11 pick. The Flyers are better off drafting a defenseman with that pick and developing them.

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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
With the skill our team has in selecting centers in the draft, we should be able to draft a good defensive center to replace
Couturier, if needed.
There's more to being a good defensive center than just defensive awareness. Couturier has the ability to single handedly change the course of a game. Watch him. Look at how teams guard him. Look at how he handles himself. It's about positioning. It's about being aware who's on the ice. It's about thinking the game three steps ahead. Couturier just has that presence and awareness when he's on the ice. He's a 20 year old kid who is playing the hardest position in the game. Do you think Giroux could do what Couturier has done? Do you think Schenn could do it? There's a reason why Couturier is in that role as the defensive conscience of the team. The Flyers simply don't have any other forward capable of doing what Couturier does. And before we get into whether Laughton can do it or not, Laughton also doesn't have the offensive skill that Couturier has (and this is coming from someone who is really really high on Scott Laughton and that he was quite possibly the best player in the OHL during the second half of the season and the first two rounds of the OHL playoffs). Scott Laughton simply does not have Couturier's offensive upside and that isn't a knock on Laughton.

People need to relax a bit when it comes to Couturier. He's a 20 year old kid that is getting his feet wet in the hardest role there is. I've said it before and I really think it's going to happen that if the Flyers don't trade Couturier, he's going to be moved to the top line and Giroux will be put back on the wing to accommodate the move.

You simply aren't getting a top pairing or a top tier defender for Couturier and a draft pick.

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06-07-2013, 04:23 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Thank you. Agree 100%. We really should just keep Couturier. I really think he's going to develop into another Bergeron.

With Giroux's talent, Schenn's grit, Cout's everything, and Laughton's speed and tenacity, we're going to be all set at centre for years to come.
When I'm in agreement with both you and Achdumeingute on an issue that probably says a lot. It sure doesn't happen often.

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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Oh, I get what you're saying. I'm not ready to give up on Couturier because I really do think he's going to end up being more valuable than Giroux in three more seasons.

With that being said, I'm really worried that Laviolette is strangling Couturier's development and confidence. I've never seen one player in which a coach has continually made him a scapegoat the way Couturier has been made by Laviolette. He misses a defensive assignment, he gets benched. He misses an offensive scoring chance, he gets benched. Hartnell does crap like that all the time and gets top power play billing and ice time.

To me, Laviolette is the root problem and he's got to go. I really think the guy's a moron and is just completely unable to adapt to the roster he has and is the first person to point fingers everywhere else but himself.
Yeah, his utter failure to adapt to the roster really pissed me off. Especially when he never, ever changed the breakout plan months after it was clear what we were doing wasn't working too well.

As you've mentioned, that sort of stubbornness isn't going to help develop players, and that's what a lot of these guys need right now...development.

At least he kept Luke Schenn out there when he struggled, unlike Toronto. Then again, he had no choice.

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06-07-2013, 04:28 PM
  #358
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The draft, like every other team. That kind of defenseman, the kind that is actually worthwhile, doesn't get moved unless it's for an overpayment.
Exactly.

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06-07-2013, 04:32 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
When I'm in agreement with both you and Achdumeingute on an issue that probably says a lot. It sure doesn't happen often.
Yeah, what's going on here with people being in agreement with one another?

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06-07-2013, 04:32 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The draft, like every other team. That kind of defenseman, the kind that is actually worthwhile, doesn't get moved unless it's for an overpayment.
We only draft centers though.

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06-07-2013, 04:33 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, his utter failure to adapt to the roster really pissed me off. Especially when he never, ever changed the breakout plan months after it was clear what we were doing wasn't working too well.

As you've mentioned, that sort of stubbornness isn't going to help develop players, and that's what a lot of these guys need right now...development.

At least he kept Luke Schenn out there when he struggled, unlike Toronto. Then again, he had no choice.
Agree.

This is why I'd be fine with a "teaching" coach right now, like Terry M or Stevens...not necessarily those guys, but someone like them.

I don't think Lavy has EVER shown he is an adaptable coach.

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06-07-2013, 04:39 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The draft, like every other team. That kind of defenseman, the kind that is actually worthwhile, doesn't get moved unless it's for an overpayment.
Oh that's right, the Bruins drafted Chara and the Wild drafted Suter. Come on. There are like ten or so true #1 franchise defenders out there. At least two of them were not drafted by the team's they are currently on. The other true #1 guys I would say are Doughty, Keith, Weber, and that's about all I can come up with right now besides Chara and Suter who were not drafted. There are guys out there that may one day be true #1 defenders, but when they become that they may not be on the team that drafted them. Ideally you get a guy like that in the draft. Obviously. Ideally you get all you best players in the draft. In reality, it doesn't work like that.

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06-07-2013, 04:44 PM
  #363
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Oh that's right, the Bruins drafted Chara and the Wild drafted Suter. Come on. There are like ten or so true #1 franchise defenders out there. At least two of them were not drafted by the team's they are currently on. The other true #1 guys I would say are Doughty, Keith, Weber, and that's about all I can come up with right now besides Chara and Suter who were not drafted. There are guys out there that may one day be true #1 defenders, but when they become that they may not be on the team that drafted them. Ideally you get a guy like that in the draft. Obviously. Ideally you get all you best players in the draft. In reality, it doesn't work like that.
The landscape has changed with the new CBA. The small markets can compete much easier with contracts now. Do you think NSH would have kept Suter for 8 yrs, 7m per?, unless Suter just wanted to go to Min anyway...can't really combat that. Might happen with us with Ryan in 2 years...

Look at this offseason, everyone with any real value (youngish and productive) who was a UFA has already been locked up.

And in hindsight, I'm sure OTT would have much rather kept Chara.

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06-07-2013, 04:48 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
There's more to being a good defensive center than just defensive awareness. Couturier has the ability to single handedly change the course of a game. Watch him. Look at how teams guard him. Look at how he handles himself. It's about positioning. It's about being aware who's on the ice. It's about thinking the game three steps ahead. Couturier just has that presence and awareness when he's on the ice. He's a 20 year old kid who is playing the hardest position in the game. Do you think Giroux could do what Couturier has done? Do you think Schenn could do it? There's a reason why Couturier is in that role as the defensive conscience of the team. The Flyers simply don't have any other forward capable of doing what Couturier does. And before we get into whether Laughton can do it or not, Laughton also doesn't have the offensive skill that Couturier has (and this is coming from someone who is really really high on Scott Laughton and that he was quite possibly the best player in the OHL during the second half of the season and the first two rounds of the OHL playoffs). Scott Laughton simply does not have Couturier's offensive upside and that isn't a knock on Laughton.
I want to add to this with some examples, regarding how he plays offense depending on who's on the ice.

If he's on with his typical Rosehill/Rinaldo/Talbot sort of crowd, he won't try to directly set them up for a scoring chance. What he'll do (if he's the first in the zone) is pull up, stall until his linemates enter the zone, then he'll dump the puck in and let his linemates fight for it while he goes to the net to see if anything develops. He knows that's what those guys are best at. He plays to their strengths.

When he's on the ice with the higher-skill guys, though, he won't do that. He'll try to set them up for one timers, or give them the puck and trust they'll be fine instead of dumping it in. He knows who is on the ice with him, and he plays fittingly.

I think that shows some phenomenal maturity. He's got the brains. He's got the awareness. He's already a beast defensively, and he's still 6 seasons from his physical prime. I really can't believe he dropped to us in the draft. We got very, very lucky.

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Oh that's right, the Bruins drafted Chara and the Wild drafted Suter. Come on. There are like ten or so true #1 franchise defenders out there. At least two of them were not drafted by the team's they are currently on. The other true #1 guys I would say are Doughty, Keith, Weber, and that's about all I can come up with right now besides Chara and Suter who were not drafted. There are guys out there that may one day be true #1 defenders, but when they become that they may not be on the team that drafted them. Ideally you get a guy like that in the draft. Obviously. Ideally you get all you best players in the draft. In reality, it doesn't work like that.
Did either of those teams trade for them? No. They went to FA. That's a different beast. They didn't overpay in assets to get those guys, which is what people here want to do. They didn't have to give away a chunk of their team/prospect pool to acquire those players. As it is, Minn has set themselves up for some nasty risks with that contract in the process of buying Suter.


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06-07-2013, 04:50 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Did either of those teams trade for them? No. They went to FA. That's a different beast. They didn't give overpay in assets to get those guys, which is what people here want to do. As it is, Minn has set themselves up for some nasty risks with that contract in the process of buying Suter.
I don't think anyone wants to overpay, it just appears that you think Couturier for Yandle (or another similar defender) is an overpayment while I (and possibly others) think that would be worth it.

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06-07-2013, 04:55 PM
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I don't think anyone wants to overpay, it just appears that you think Couturier for Yandle (or another similar defender) is an overpayment while I (and possibly others) think that would be worth it.
No way that's worth it. Would you do Giroux for Phaneuf?

Edit: I mean, that just sounds absurd. Trading Couturier for a heavily sheltered complimentary Dman who won't come close to compensating for our newly aggravated lack of defensive skill strikes me as the kind of move that should get a GM fired. That's a Howson move.

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06-07-2013, 04:58 PM
  #367
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I don't think anyone wants to overpay, it just appears that you think Couturier for Yandle (or another similar defender) is an overpayment while I (and possibly others) think that would be worth it.
The likelyhood is that it isn't a one for one deal.

I could LIVE with a one for one deal....

I hated the JVR deal, because he is more talented than Schenn, I felt we should have gotten more, but I can live with the deal...because at least it was one young guy for another young guy.

I never liked the Pronger deal...because the cost was too high.

I've got no interest in trading 3+ assets for 1 player because that is what we need right now...We don't have the organizational depth to do this...

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06-07-2013, 05:03 PM
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Buggity boo....Stars traded for Gonchar's rights. Looks like one 2013 band-aid is going to be off the market.

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06-07-2013, 05:07 PM
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Buggity boo....Stars traded for Gonchar's rights. Looks like one 2013 band-aid is going to be off the market.
That's the kind of guy I'd only sign 1 year deals with. I still have a sour taste in my mouth with him, after watching that mailed-in performance in the POs to end his stint in Pitt.

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06-07-2013, 05:08 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
The likelyhood is that it isn't a one for one deal.

I could LIVE with a one for one deal....

I hated the JVR deal, because he is more talented than Schenn, I felt we should have gotten more, but I can live with the deal...because at least it was one young guy for another young guy.

I never liked the Pronger deal...because the cost was too high.

I've got no interest in trading 3+ assets for 1 player because that is what we need right now...We don't have the organizational depth to do this...
Yeah I understand that it likely wouldn't be Couturier for Yandle and I have made it clear (or at least I thought) that I wouldn't overpay for Yandle. If it was Couturier + something inconsequential, ok. But I wouldn't deal something like Couturier and 11 or something like that.

As far as JvR, I have said this from the beginning and it is similar to the Couturier scenario. The Flyers have plenty of offensive talent and had no young, high ceiling shut down defenders. Schenn turned out to be arguably our best defender this year, and JvR played well in Toronto. It was a win for both teams. I feel safe saying that this team without Schenn wouldn't have been better off with JvR on the wing.

And Pronger, well, there was a lot going on there. I still think I'd do it again if given the chance. If he wasn't injured I don't think there would be any talk of trading Couturier right now.

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06-07-2013, 05:48 PM
  #371
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You aren't getting a top d-man for just Couts alone or even Couts + a small piece. Look at past trades of top d-men. They were 3+, 4+, 5+ significant pieces for the d-man.

So you trade Couts + the pieces needed to get a top d-man. Congrats on fixing one area of the team and making a hole on another.

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06-07-2013, 06:15 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yeah I understand that it likely wouldn't be Couturier for Yandle and I have made it clear (or at least I thought) that I wouldn't overpay for Yandle. If it was Couturier + something inconsequential, ok. But I wouldn't deal something like Couturier and 11 or something like that.

As far as JvR, I have said this from the beginning and it is similar to the Couturier scenario. The Flyers have plenty of offensive talent and had no young, high ceiling shut down defenders. Schenn turned out to be arguably our best defender this year, and JvR played well in Toronto. It was a win for both teams. I feel safe saying that this team without Schenn wouldn't have been better off with JvR on the wing.

And Pronger, well, there was a lot going on there. I still think I'd do it again if given the chance. If he wasn't injured I don't think there would be any talk of trading Couturier right now.
I wanted JVR to blow up, but from watching him during his time in philly, I personally concluded he is too soft to fulfill his potential.

I understand you give to get, and as much as i love Couturier I would deal him in the right trade; however, hes coming off of a "down" year and im not much for selling low. I personally think he is going to have a bounce back junior year and come on strong, along with B. Schenn.

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06-07-2013, 06:15 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No way that's worth it. Would you do Giroux for Phaneuf?

Edit: I mean, that just sounds absurd. Trading Couturier for a heavily sheltered complimentary Dman who won't come close to compensating for our newly aggravated lack of defensive skill strikes me as the kind of move that should get a GM fired. That's a Howson move.
Giroux for Phaneuf is nowhere near the same as Couturier for Yandle. I would not do Giroux for Phaneuf for obvious reasons. To begin with, I think Yandle is better/more valuable (or at least on the same level) than Phaneuf and Giroux is better/more valuable than Couturier. I also think replacing Giroux would be more difficult than replacing Couturier.

I don't agree with your conclusion that Couturier's absence will automatically create a problem, without even knowing who his replacement would be, as well as your conclusion that Yandle won't come close to compensating for this drastic drop in defense. I think both of those conclusions are wrong. The way I see it, Couturier's absence likely won't create the problem you are afraid of, and any problem that does hypothetically occur will be compensated by the play of Yandle. There really is no way to quantify or prove either of these points so the discussion is likely reaching its end and we'll just have to wait and see what happens at the draft. Haha.

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06-07-2013, 06:18 PM
  #374
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While I agree that drafting a d-man is the way to go, is everyone fine with waiting for 5 years for that player to make an impact? Meanwhile, all of our young players are on larger contracts(Giroux, Couts, Schenn) and Voracek is a UFA.

The whole point of drafting BPA is to later make trades for need. Guess what, w have a major need. BUT, we also have EXTRA of what other teams are looking for. And that is centers.

The team(GM and Snider) need to pick which way to go and STAY with it. If they are going to try and win in 4-5 years, then make trades TODAY to try and make that happen. Go to Hartnell and tell him the new plan. See if he will waive to help the team in the future. Trade Talbot. Don't re-sign Gagne. Tell Kimmo and ask the top 5 teams he would like to go to. Trade Grossmann, Coburn and Mez for younger D-men or picks. Replace them with UFA's that don't kill the cap. Buyout Bryz. Get a coach that plays to the players STRENGTHS. HOLD EVERYONE ACCOUNTABLE. Make a plan AND STICK TO IT.

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06-07-2013, 06:24 PM
  #375
Beef Invictus
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Giroux for Phaneuf is nowhere near the same as Couturier for Yandle. I would not do Giroux for Phaneuf for obvious reasons. To begin with, I think Yandle is better/more valuable (or at least on the same level) than Phaneuf and Giroux is better/more valuable than Couturier. I also think replacing Giroux would be more difficult than replacing Couturier.

I don't agree with your conclusion that Couturier's absence will automatically create a problem, without even knowing who his replacement would be, as well as your conclusion that Yandle won't come close to compensating for this drastic drop in defense. I think both of those conclusions are wrong. The way I see it, Couturier's absence likely won't create the problem you are afraid of, and any problem that does hypothetically occur will be compensated by the play of Yandle. There really is no way to quantify or prove either of these points so the discussion is likely reaching its end and we'll just have to wait and see what happens at the draft. Haha.
1) What available forward can match Couturier's defense?

2) What can you do to disprove all the statistics that show Yandle is a very sheltered Dman who has been kept out of difficult defensive situations? Up until this point Yandle has done nothing to show he's great defensively. From what I can tell he's Carle with a harder shot, which isn't something I'd trade Couturier+ for.

The way I see it, this move very clearly makes the team worse defensively. Possible offensively as well, depening on who else goes with Coots. And, we have a goalie who has shown he's utterly incapable of bailing out an average defense, I don't want to know what he looks like behind a downright bad D.

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