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Old
06-07-2013, 01:26 PM
  #51
dmanfish90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredflag View Post
Jordan Staal is 42 for center last season for pts/game. In my book, is at the top of the 3 line center, if you consider the first 40 to be the top 1-2 center in the league. I agree with you that depending of the team, you can end up being 1 or 2 center.
Plek is 32 for center for pts/game. It's middle 2 line center, I give you that, but I still consider him more efficient in a defensive center style than in a offensive role.

Anyhow, I don't want us to trade him and that the end of the story. I consider him our best center right now, so I want us to keep him.

As for Markov, I agree with you that the split season and the high tempo season could be a little deceiving for his evaluation. My gut tell me that he cannot get back to is old self, but frankly I have been wrong before on a player and if he can prove me wrong I will be the first happy, but I will not shed a tear if he is trade... depending of the return.
Firstly, that statistic has some bias as there are guys who didn't even play half season in that chart above Jordan. So no, he's not 42nd.

Tomas Plekanec on PIT is the #3 C. Saku Koivu, David Krejci, Bergeron, Cody Hodgson, Mike Cammalleri, Jonathan Toews are all #3 Centres (just to name a few).

I think on at least 20/30 NHL teams, Jordan Staal is #2 centre. His stats reflect it. You don't score a 60 point pace 2+ seasons in a row by being a #3 centre.

Tomas Plekanec is an elite 2nd Line, arguably a Top 30 C in the NHL if he has better players to play with (GIO AND BOURQUE).

Mull that over.

As for Markov, he's also 34, been through 2 knee reconstructions, and yet still was able to SCORE points and MOVE THE PUCK, which is what he is mainly, with some defensive upside before this season and injuries.

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06-07-2013, 01:50 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by habsfan92 View Post
Hey thanks Pierre Macguire. Try using your brain. DD isn't going anywhere. Eller will be needing more icetime. Galchenyuk is going to get fourth line minutes, about 6-8 a game? No. DD stunk, but that is not a contract that can be moved. So if you are dilusional (and that is where I am leading) project where and how much these centres are going to play next season. That is what needs to be addressed. Which Plek cheerleaders don't want to discuss, is what is our best option. Nothing but attacks, no solutions. If DD wasn't there, I would have no issue keeping the guy. But that is not the case. He would provide the best return for the sacrifice.
Hey you're welcome Forrest. "No solutions" stems from an ill-formed opinion targeting Plekanec as requiring a "solution", or "option". Furthermore, trying to refute facts with opinion doesn't tend to impress anyone.

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06-07-2013, 02:55 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by crystal ball View Post
Just curious: why do so many people here want to trade Plekanec away? The guy is brilliant defensively and has some nice tricks on offence as well. He's fast, smart and skilled. Of course, he's not the guy you want to be your number-one centre because of his size and the way he tends to wear down as the season goes on. But he would be such an asset to a winning team as a second line guy. Even third, as he gets older, just for his defence.

He's got four years left on his current deal, which he'll earn while Eller and Galchenyuk are maturing, and after that he can be signed for much less for a lower line job. So why the need to trade him?
I agree, maybe we could fine tune him into a guy charboneau type role in a couple years.

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06-07-2013, 03:19 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Hey you're welcome Forrest. "No solutions" stems from an ill-formed opinion targeting Plekanec as requiring a "solution", or "option". Furthermore, trying to refute facts with opinion doesn't tend to impress anyone.
Lt Dan, what facts am I trying to refute? How will the ice time be split this coming year? Think about this. Top centers on the team Pleks, DD, Eller, Galchenyuk. Will DD bounce back? Hope so. Will Eller improve? Think so. He will need PP time. At whos' expense? DD needs the PP time to be effective. Pleks? Maybe? Can we keep them all? Yes. Should we keep them all? Probably not. Do we want to move Galchenyuk or Eller? No. Don't want to move Plek either. But between him and DD, he would bring back the most quality return. Is this opinion? Sure. Do you really disagree? I feel that in order to have a better team going forward, it will have to be looked at.

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06-07-2013, 03:37 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by habsfan92 View Post
Lt Dan, what facts am I trying to refute? How will the ice time be split this coming year? Think about this. Top centers on the team Pleks, DD, Eller, Galchenyuk. Will DD bounce back? Hope so. Will Eller improve? Think so. He will need PP time. At whos' expense? DD needs the PP time to be effective. Pleks? Maybe? Can we keep them all? Yes. Should we keep them all? Probably not. Do we want to move Galchenyuk or Eller? No. Don't want to move Plek either. But between him and DD, he would bring back the most quality return. Is this opinion? Sure. Do you really disagree? I feel that in order to have a better team going forward, it will have to be looked at.
You don't really need to give any particular player PP time, just find the best 6-7 guys for it out of your forwards.

The thing with Plekanec is that he's indispensible for ES play. The entire line system is built around him playing the hardest minutes well. Desharnais requires a Plekanec for his role to exist, while a Plekanec doesn't require a Desharnais.

In any event, its likely that trading any of the centers for wingers is going to make the team less effective, so why bother? If you need wingers they are some of the easiest things to buy in trade or free agency.

But we should dispense with the idea that Desharnais has anything to bounce back too. He was exactly the same as the year before, just without 1st unit PP success. He'll probably never hit .75 points per game again because .25 of those points were from 1st unit PP time and he's been superceded there. You can count on the same .50 ES PPG so long as he stays in the same role 5 on 5.

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06-07-2013, 03:55 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by habsfan92 View Post
Well, He is a good 3rd liner. Unfortunately here on this team, people think he is a first liner. He is about 200 lbs, and plays a completely unphysical game. Perimeter player that never goes to the net ( except against Ottawa where drives Turris into Price, goal!, yeah great defensive play!). He never battles for pucks, never along the boards (that is why he stays so healthy). Don't recall him winning any important face-offs. Good, but not great puck skills. Good regular season player that plays pp & pk.
Here is the thing, you can't have Pleks & DD on the same team, team is too soft as it is. With DD being signed to a contract for 4 years, he is difficult to trade and expect a good return. Pleks however has more of track record that would be somewhat desirable for getting something useful in return. All in all, Eller maturing & Chuck needing more icetime allows Mtl to move him. Rangers could use Pleks. I won't miss him.
You stink.. Eveything you wrote is wrong.. Pleks isnt shy from physical contacts and will win most of his puck battles with his speed and grit, he also win his share of faceoffs including the important ones.. He is a pure natural center who will never cheat offensively to inflate his personal stats, he is one of the best 2 way centers in the league, extremmely reliable and solid in all 3 zones.. Pleks is durable, competes hard and you know you can count on him in several situations.. He is a great second line center to have on your team and an exemple for our kids..

We would be very dump to part with him at this point, unless you wanna lose for the next 2-3 years to get some more elite talents at the draft.. But Im not sure a guy like Price would survive any longer here in that situation.. So its easy to understand that the loser way isnt a valid option for Bergevin and the staff.. Esy deduction, Pleks is here to stay.


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06-07-2013, 04:08 PM
  #57
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Plekanec expendable? lol yeah right.. not even close right now. Some habs fans are a little too spoiled with the players they have and don't realize how lucky they are to have turtleneck swagga.

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06-07-2013, 04:17 PM
  #58
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If you ignore the Plekanec bashing, there are a lot of good points being made about the benefits of moving him. Pretty obvious we won't get anywhere with this discussion if people keep labelling him as a third liner or ignoring the fact that he brings a lot to the team. On the other hand, people on the other side of the argument need to look at the big picture and the long-term projection for the team. I'm sure we can all see that losing your top center will negatively affect the current team, that's just common sense but, we can also look at how the return for Plekanec will positively affect the team now and in the future.

It is easier to replace a 3rd line center than it is to acquire a top-6 winger or top-4 defenceman.


I'm sure we can all meet in the middle somewhere.

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06-07-2013, 04:31 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
If you ignore the Plekanec bashing, there are a lot of good points being made about the benefits of moving him. Pretty obvious we won't get anywhere with this discussion if people keep labelling him as a third liner or ignoring the fact that he brings a lot to the team. On the other hand, people on the other side of the argument need to look at the big picture and the long-term projection for the team. I'm sure we can all see that losing your top center will negatively affect the current team, that's just common sense but, we can also look at how the return for Plekanec will positively affect the team now and in the future.

It is easier to replace a 3rd line center than it is to acquire a top-6 winger or top-4 defenceman.


I'm sure we can all meet in the middle somewhere.
By the same token, its very hard to replace centers that can play both sides of the puck well.

And if we're projecting Plekanec to be a 3rd line center 5 years from now, its as the cream of the crop of 3Cs. Something that's usually more valuable than a mid-list top six winger.

By comparison to your proposed Plekanec for Stewart deal, considering the age curves on goal scoring wingers vs two-way centermen (non-physical division), I'd say there is a decent chance Pleks at 35 is more valuable to a contending team than Stewart at 30.

The safest option in my mind is to keep Plekanec and Eller together and not have to worry about your top six's two-way ability down the middle or who will be your main PK forwards for the next 5 seasons.

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06-07-2013, 05:31 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
If you ignore the Plekanec bashing, there are a lot of good points being made about the benefits of moving him. Pretty obvious we won't get anywhere with this discussion if people keep labelling him as a third liner or ignoring the fact that he brings a lot to the team. On the other hand, people on the other side of the argument need to look at the big picture and the long-term projection for the team. I'm sure we can all see that losing your top center will negatively affect the current team, that's just common sense but, we can also look at how the return for Plekanec will positively affect the team now and in the future.

It is easier to replace a 3rd line center than it is to acquire a top-6 winger or top-4 defenceman.


I'm sure we can all meet in the middle somewhere.
If we trade Plekanec we won't be a very good team for 2-3 years, Desharnais is going to suck even more as the #1 center and Eller can't take Pleks' spot. Plus I doubt the players on this team want to wait a couple of years to win, I don't think Bergevin is going to sacrifice short term success. Plus we are going to get these top 6 wingers during the draft, that is Bergevin's mentality. He has said since he came here that it takes a lot to trade for a need and that he'd much rather draft those players.

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06-07-2013, 05:38 PM
  #61
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Successful teams are able to trade players while they have value and replace them from previous draft picks within. It is safe to assume that Galchenyuk and Eller will have the capability to take over the first and second line centre positions as soon as the 2014-15 season.

I see Plekanec being traded at sometime in the 2014 offseason and possibly at the deadline if the Habs underperform next season. He is exactly the type of player that Stanley Cup contenders (like it or not we are not contenders yet) covet for a cup run and with 2 years left in his deal, that makes him very attractive.

Montreal is developing a core around Price, Subban, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher and Eller. Other young players depending on how they develop will be added to that core. Remember that Bergevin said, they want to contend every year. The way to do that is to trade a valuable asset when you have youngsters able to take over with little to no change in results.

I can see it starting to happen and it is time for fans to embrace it. I would welcome a Plekanec trade under the right circumstances, because it would mean that we are building towards a Stanley Cup contender for years to come.

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06-07-2013, 05:39 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by elsubz View Post
Plekanec expendable? lol yeah right.. not even close right now. Some habs fans are a little too spoiled with the players they have and don't realize how lucky they are to have turtleneck swagga.
spoiled? we havent won the cup in 20 years

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06-07-2013, 05:42 PM
  #63
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I'm more open to it now more then ever but I still wouldn't actively shop the guy and it would have to address a major positional need long-term.

In my mind, Pleks and Eller are our second/third line centers for the next five years or so. In two years, Pleks will be coming out of his prime while Eller will be just entering it and the two are very close to being interchangeable as is. If Galchenyuk develops as expected, then our top three centers are more or less set for the foreseeable future and that's worth more to me then trading him while his value is high.

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06-07-2013, 05:52 PM
  #64
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spoiled? we havent won the cup in 20 years
Again with the spoiled. That's 1/3rd less than average in this league.

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06-07-2013, 07:49 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by couris View Post
spoiled? we havent won the cup in 20 years
Hey there's worst. You could have Tyler Bozak as your first line center and be in a 46 years drought.


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06-07-2013, 08:51 PM
  #66
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Some people think the key to success is perpetually sucking. Pleks is more valuable than anything we'd ever get in return. The tankers are funny, lets trade pleks in hopes to get a player who might some day be as good as pleks. When you dismantle your team and trade key vets like pleks, you turn into teams that have been in the basement for the better part of a decade.

We are not trading pleks, he's been our best player for years. He's going no where and trading him is one of the dumbest ideas to ever pop up on these boards.

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06-07-2013, 08:55 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
You are a terrible hockey scout. Plekanec is only a good 3rd liner now?
I always thought hfboard s was where the more knowledgeable fans got together to discuss the game. It's becoming a bit of a joke tbh. Pleks is so undervalued it's not even funny, the chances of us drafting a player as capable as pleks, especially late in the first rd are extremely slim.

Pleks is a key piece to this team going forward, it's about time he gets the respect he deserves.

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06-07-2013, 08:58 PM
  #68
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Hey thanks Pierre Macguire. Try using your brain. DD isn't going anywhere. Eller will be needing more icetime. Galchenyuk is going to get fourth line minutes, about 6-8 a game? No. DD stunk, but that is not a contract that can be moved. So if you are dilusional (and that is where I am leading) project where and how much these centres are going to play next season. That is what needs to be addressed. Which Plek cheerleaders don't want to discuss, is what is our best option. Nothing but attacks, no solutions. If DD wasn't there, I would have no issue keeping the guy. But that is not the case. He would provide the best return for the sacrifice.
The only one delusional here is you and a couple of others.

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06-07-2013, 09:04 PM
  #69
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1- Plek is more a upper range 3 line center, like Jordan Staal. I understand that we play and pay him like a bona fida 2 line but I think he could be much more effective if is ice time get cut a little, I would prefer to see him on every PK and cut is PP ice time. BUT, right now, Plek is overplaying Eller, DD and Gal.

2- For Markov, he put the majority of this year point on the PP. He was also a lot less effective at 5 on 5. This is the reason why I think Markov could be move, because in my mind he kind of become a PP specialist. We need more player to take the work load on PP and we need to beef up the defense position.



I really hope that Bourque stay healthy next season and we need a 3 wheel on this line to help Plek along the board, someone with a nasty side. And yes, you can say "Oh Boy!", that freaking pathetic as winger come...
That's because as o of right now, pleks is easily better than all of them.

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06-07-2013, 09:06 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I always thought hfboard s was where the more knowledgeable fans got together to discuss the game. It's becoming a bit of a joke tbh. Pleks is so undervalued it's not even funny, the chances of us drafting a player as capable as pleks, especially late in the first rd are extremely slim.

Pleks is a key piece to this team going forward, it's about time he gets the respect he deserves.
When Gauthier traded his wingers away and then Bergevin comes in and does nothing - that's all Plek's needs to know on whether he's a key piece going forward. If we change the roster I might whistle a different tune but I doubt that will happen. Not the Eureka moment but the Erat moment.

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06-07-2013, 09:08 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by HabsSlappy View Post
Successful teams are able to trade players while they have value and replace them from previous draft picks within. It is safe to assume that Galchenyuk and Eller will have the capability to take over the first and second line centre positions as soon as the 2014-15 season.

I see Plekanec being traded at sometime in the 2014 offseason and possibly at the deadline if the Habs underperform next season. He is exactly the type of player that Stanley Cup contenders (like it or not we are not contenders yet) covet for a cup run and with 2 years left in his deal, that makes him very attractive.

Montreal is developing a core around Price, Subban, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher and Eller. Other young players depending on how they develop will be added to that core. Remember that Bergevin said, they want to contend every year. The way to do that is to trade a valuable asset when you have youngsters able to take over with little to no change in results.

I can see it starting to happen and it is time for fans to embrace it. I would welcome a Plekanec trade under the right circumstances, because it would mean that we are building towards a Stanley Cup contender for years to come.
Maybe you have a few examples of teams that do this consistently and have succeeded with the practice. Off hand I can't think of any.

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06-07-2013, 09:58 PM
  #72
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Until one of Eller or Gally make him expendable, probably not a good idea to trade him. Wait a bit.

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06-07-2013, 10:05 PM
  #73
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When Gauthier traded his wingers away and then Bergevin comes in and does nothing - that's all Plek's needs to know on whether he's a key piece going forward. If we change the roster I might whistle a different tune but I doubt that will happen. Not the Eureka moment but the Erat moment.
Thats the thing. I love Pleks but he seemed to be lazy at times offensively due to frustration with his wingers. I want to see this guy hungry in all 3 zones, but the role he's been in the past couple years seems to have taken its toll on his effort offensively. Not that its a bad thing to focus on defense, and Pleks will be the last guy to complain about it. Just wish we could give this guy a better situation.

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06-07-2013, 10:28 PM
  #74
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Until one of Eller or Gally make him expendable, probably not a good idea to trade him. Wait a bit.
Neither will make Plekanec expendable. Them three make Desharnais expendable. The only thing that will end Plekanec's term here is his age.

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06-07-2013, 10:35 PM
  #75
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5M, afraid of physical contact (see plays like a girl) and we are not close to winning the cup as he is getting older. Trade.
Ok that's it. Couris meet patofqc and Young gun. Ignore list.

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