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Avs re-sign Patrick Bordeleau (3 yrs, $1M/yr)"see post #85 for the off link "

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06-07-2013, 11:53 AM
  #126
RoyIsALegend
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We can paint it any way we'd like, but there is a significant drop in PK ability from the trio of McClement/Galiardi/Winnik. I don't really want our top two centers consuming a bunch of PK time.

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06-07-2013, 11:58 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
We can paint it any way we'd like, but there is a significant drop in PK ability from the trio of McClement/Galiardi/Winnik. I don't really want our top two centers consuming a bunch of PK time.
I think McClement was the really big loss there, but the other two hurt as well. This problem really kinda makes me wish Condon would leave school a year early. He could probably play 4th line minutes and be a solid PK player right out of camp.

I don't see a problem with it if you run 3 units instead of the more normal 2. Splits the time up more. I would still really lean on a ROR-Landeskog pairing for PK though.

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06-07-2013, 12:06 PM
  #128
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PK is a big part of why I want one of Heard or Malone centering the 4th line. Hell dream scenario sees a Bordy/Highlander/Olver - Heard - Malone 4th line where those later two would also be our top PK pair.

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06-07-2013, 12:07 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
I don't know what PK you were watching last year but Duchene was consistently our best PK forward last year.
I was watching the Avs PK.

Duchene's just OK. Improving, definitely. But below average as far as PK centers go.

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06-07-2013, 12:09 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
PK is a big part of why I want one of Heard or Malone centering the 4th line. Hell dream scenario sees a Bordy/Highlander/Olver - Heard - Malone 4th line where those later two would also be our top PK pair.
Heard is nowhere near ready for the NHL... he still needs time at the AHL level. Malone could probably play on the 4th line and pull some PK duties.

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06-07-2013, 12:14 PM
  #131
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Heard is nowhere near ready for the NHL... he still needs time at the AHL level. Malone could probably play on the 4th line and pull some PK duties.
That's what I'd expect, but I've been surprised by players who had great camps and showed themselves to be further along than expected before. Which is why I'd let Heard compete with Malone for the spot, so that Malone needs to earn it, if he does, great Heard joins sgar and hishon in the A, if Heard beats out malone, that's also great cause it means Heard is further along than expected.

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06-07-2013, 12:18 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
That's what I'd expect, but I've been surprised by players who had great camps and showed themselves to be further along than expected before. Which is why I'd let Heard compete with Malone for the spot, so that Malone needs to earn it, if he does, great Heard joins sgar and hishon in the A, if Heard beats out malone, that's also great cause it means Heard is further along than expected.
Malone will already be competing with Mitchell and Olver for that spot (and I'd say he is an underdog to get it). Heard is honestly far down the depth chart for it. It is possible he has an amazing camp and wins a spot, but I would consider that very unlikely.

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06-07-2013, 12:33 PM
  #133
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Brad Malone will make the team out of camp. Just my feeling.

Better player than Mark Olver, quite comfortably, and fills a need. Faceoffs and penalty killing.

Get John Mitchell out of my face, ffs.

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06-07-2013, 12:35 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
Brad Malone will make the team out of camp. Just my feeling.

Better player than Mark Olver, quite comfortably, and fills a need. Faceoffs and penalty killing.

Get John Mitchell out of my face, ffs.
I would prefer getting a more proven 4th line center but that works too. Olver should be dumped. He can't play center and isn't any good.

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06-07-2013, 12:35 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Huis Clos View Post
When did Bordeleau ever prevent cheap shots on his teammates? Hell, when does an enforcer on any team ever prevent cheap shots? I've never seen guys like Cooke, Marchand or Briere ever have to fight an enforcer after a cheap shot or change their behavior due to the idea of retribution. It sounds like a nice idea, but I don't think it happens in practice.
I think you are wrong. I think having a big tough guy that the other team is truly scared of makes players think twice about trying to deliver that big blow to the star player.

All those years we had Scott Parker out there, other teams laid off the Sakics Hejduks and Tanguays of the world because they knew that Parker was around.

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06-07-2013, 12:39 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
I think you are wrong. I think having a big tough guy that the other team is truly scared of makes players think twice about trying to deliver that big blow to the star player.

All those years we had Scott Parker out there, other teams laid off the Sakics Hejduks and Tanguays of the world because they knew that Parker was around.
I'm kind of on the fence with this debate. I get the theory behind the heavyweight deterrent, but how often do true heavyweights fight anyone but another heavyweight? And correspondingly (with the discrete line matchups coaches do these days) how often is a heavyweight playing against the other teams' top line guys?

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06-07-2013, 12:39 PM
  #137
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I echo the statements that Olver should go. He just doesn't have a role on this team.

Malone isn't very good on faceoffs though. His future is probably at wing.

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06-07-2013, 12:41 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
PK is a big part of why I want one of Heard or Malone centering the 4th line. Hell dream scenario sees a Bordy/Highlander/Olver - Heard - Malone 4th line where those later two would also be our top PK pair.
Our PK hasnt been the same since Niko and Kono retired. I miss those old farts. I actually would put Malone ahead of Olver. Im not terribly high on Olver. Not good enough to be in the top 6 and not good enough defensively to be in the bottom 6

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06-07-2013, 12:41 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
I think you are wrong. I think having a big tough guy that the other team is truly scared of makes players think twice about trying to deliver that big blow to the star player.

All those years we had Scott Parker out there, other teams laid off the Sakics Hejduks and Tanguays of the world because they knew that Parker was around.
I think it's pretty amazing he can accomplish that when he's on the bench 54 minutes a game. And when he isn't he's generally playing against the bottom pairing defensemen and fourth liners.

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06-07-2013, 12:50 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Huis Clos View Post
I think it's pretty amazing he can accomplish that when he's on the bench 54 minutes a game. And when he isn't he's generally playing against the bottom pairing defensemen and fourth liners.
It's called intimidation. Would you not think twice about running a player if you knew that there was a possibility that if you did so, that you might be matched up with him for the rest of the hockey game?

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06-07-2013, 12:54 PM
  #141
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It's called intimidation. Would you not think twice about running a player if you knew that there was a possibility that if you did so, that you might be matched up with him for the rest of the hockey game?
I think the other team would love the Avs matching Bordeleau up with any NHL player "for the rest of the hockey game." That's not the point.

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06-07-2013, 12:55 PM
  #142
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It's of course impossible to prove that the presence of any player prevents anything, yet the players themselves thinks it does.

There were several games last year that got heated without getting out of hand (one against the Blues for example) where it might have been a factor.

At the same time with Bordeleau being a heavy and late hitter, he is as likely to take someone out of a game as anyone, which might escalate things to start with.

In hockey players finish their checks no matter if there is an enforcer or not. So anyone expecting this to make us immune to guys getting boarded/caught with their head down, it's probably not going to happen.

Ultimately it all boils down to if you believe in the role of enforcer in hockey. Some do and some don't. Roy and Sakic apparently believe in it.

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06-07-2013, 01:13 PM
  #143
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It's called intimidation. Would you not think twice about running a player if you knew that there was a possibility that if you did so, that you might be matched up with him for the rest of the hockey game?
Opposing coaches would drool over the prospect of continually getting one of their top three lines out against Bordeleau, especially one of the top two lines. Game over.

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06-07-2013, 01:18 PM
  #144
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All one has to do is look up the avs win loss record when scott Parker was in the line up. I believe it was easily over .600.

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06-07-2013, 01:26 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
I think the other team would love the Avs matching Bordeleau up with any NHL player "for the rest of the hockey game." That's not the point.
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Originally Posted by Huis Clos View Post
Opposing coaches would drool over the prospect of continually getting one of their top three lines out against Bordeleau, especially one of the top two lines. Game over.
My point is that people would think twice before messing with our players. With the way Bordy skates it wouldn't take an entire game to exact revenge.

And I am sure coaches on other teams would love to send out their stars against Bordeleau after possibly running at our top guys. Makes sense.

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06-07-2013, 01:26 PM
  #146
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All one has to do is look up the avs win loss record when scott Parker was in the line up. I believe it was easily over .600.
If Parker was the driving force behind the Avs attaining that record he would've played in the NHL longer than he did.

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06-07-2013, 01:27 PM
  #147
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I'm kind of on the fence with this debate. I get the theory behind the heavyweight deterrent, but how often do true heavyweights fight anyone but another heavyweight? And correspondingly (with the discrete line matchups coaches do these days) how often is a heavyweight playing against the other teams' top line guys?
It's not just about him fighting heavyweights. Him pushing around guys in scrums that are scared to push back gives off the impression the Avs aren't to be pushed around themselves. It's the Alpha thing. You have two groups yelling at each other and beating their chests, and eventually one side starts to get intimidated and shuts up. This can change things in games.

Him staring at and yelling at the opposition not to come anywhere near their guys or they'll have to answer to him (aka olver) gets them to shut up and settle down real quick, and you won't see guys taking runs at the Avs star players as much.

Him lining guys up for freight train hits gives him a reputation that you have to pay attention to him out there, and guys can't just focus on having an easy breakout. They're playing a bit scared out there, especially when the puck goes behind their net or is in their feet. They're going to rush plays, and he may cause a few turnovers because of this in a season.

Then you have the fighting.















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06-07-2013, 04:06 PM
  #148
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Do you think he's going to be a scoring line winger or something? The guy is, and always will be, a 4th liner. He's a monster that can fight, skate, and hits a lot. If you actually watched games, you'd know teams hesitated quite often because of his physical play, and it lead to tons of turnovers and some scoring chances. At 1M, and as a 4th liner, he's perfectly fine.
I said nothing about offense.

I just gave you statistical proof of him being a penalty liability, he's not very good offensively or defensively, and while he can fight and throw a big hit I'm not sure the penalties that come after them are worth it.

The team might be soft, but I don't think having a 6 minute a game player is going to help very much with that. The top guys need to be more gritty and less soft.

The thing is I like my fourth liners to be able to kill penalties, be defensive assets rather than liabilities, and the simple reality is Bordy can't do any of that.

I love the story, I like him as a player in terms of entertainment, I'm happy he's getting paid and while 1m isn't much in the grand scheme of things I'm completely without answers as to the 3 year length.


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06-07-2013, 05:01 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
It's not just about him fighting heavyweights. Him pushing around guys in scrums that are scared to push back gives off the impression the Avs aren't to be pushed around themselves. It's the Alpha thing. You have two groups yelling at each other and beating their chests, and eventually one side starts to get intimidated and shuts up. This can change things in games.

Him staring at and yelling at the opposition not to come anywhere near their guys or they'll have to answer to him (aka olver) gets them to shut up and settle down real quick,
Does it though? I mean, lots of guys say lots of things all game long, and I don't think a stare from any player is going to matter that much. They'll keep talking, and hitting, etc. Perhaps Bordeleau standing there would keep a guy like Shawn Thornton from going with a more part-time fighter like, say, Wilson or something. That I can see. But those moments don't come terribly often, do they?

I do understand the rationale behind it, and part of me believes it perhaps means something. But in today's game, line matchups really dictate that Bordeleau is going to largely be playing against other teams' 4th lines, and that means in large part, the other enforcer will be on the ice. So that's who he's going to go with. I mean, just look at all of those videos you put up there. How many of Bordeleau's opponents are not 4th line tough guys?

In addition, if you look at who really takes runs at top players, it's largely a handful of good but punkish guys (who are good enough to play on the first two lines) you see all of the time - Marchand, Dustin Brown, Clutterbuck, Laperriere, etc. It's not really the fighters so much. They're largely not out there when the Avs 1st line guys are. When's the last time you saw any of them - the punkish guys, I mean - take on Parros, or Bordeleau, or McGratton, or Thornton, etc? And when's the last time you saw them appreciably change their play? They play the way they play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Him lining guys up for freight train hits gives him a reputation that you have to pay attention to him out there, and guys can't just focus on having an easy breakout.
Now this is something that likely makes Bordeleau more important than his ability to fight. If he can find a way to not hurt the team either defensively or with penalties, and can be a wrecking ball on the forecheck, that's something I can get on board with as being valuable and game changing. Because it can change a game in a meaningful manner. Anyone who's ever played competitive hockey as a defenseman knows that when you get hit like that - over and over - by the middle of the 3rd period, you're not quite so zealous about being the first person to those loose pucks behind the defensive goal line as much. That, and your outlet passes are rushed.

As I said earlier, I can see both sides of this argument.


Last edited by ABasin: 06-07-2013 at 05:11 PM.
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06-07-2013, 05:12 PM
  #150
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What was the last cup winning team that iced a pure goon?? (Shawn Thornton does not count)

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