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Avs re-sign Patrick Bordeleau (3 yrs, $1M/yr)"see post #85 for the off link "

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06-07-2013, 04:17 PM
  #151
henchman24
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Originally Posted by Alex Jones View Post
What was the last cup winning team that iced a pure goon?? (Shawn Thornton does not count)
Why does Thornton not count?

Ruling Thornton out... Eager with Chicago might count depending on your definition. If not, Eric Godard with the Pens. A lot of the teams since the 04-05 lockout have had 'goons' or players that attempt to play that role... roughly half of the cup winners have had players in that role.


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06-07-2013, 04:30 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Does it though? I mean, lots of guys say lots of things all game long, and I don't think a stare from any player is going to matter that much. They'll keep talking, and hitting, etc. Perhaps Bordeleau standing there would keep a guy like Shawn Thornton from going with a more part-time fighter like, say, Wilson or something. That I can see. But those moments don't come terribly often, do they?

I do understand the rationale behind it, and part of me believes it perhaps means something. But in today's game, line matchups really dictate that Bordeleau is going to largely be playing against other teams' 4th lines, and that means in large part, the other enforcer will be on the ice. So that's who he's going to go with. I mean, just look at all of those videos you put up there. How many of Bordeleau's opponents are not 4th line tough guys?

In addition, if you look at who really takes runs at top players, it's largely a handful of good but punkish guys (who are good enough to play on the first two lines) you see all of the time - Marchand, Dustin Brown, Clutterbuck, Laperriere, etc. It's not really the fighters so much. They're largely not out there when the Avs 1st line guys are. When's the last time you saw any of them - the punkish guys, I mean - take on Parros, or Bordeleau, or McGratton, or Thornton, etc? And when's the last time you saw them appreciably change their play? They play the way they play.
The proof was in the pudding last year when Olver laid out their star rookie Tarasenko. The Blues were screaming at him when he went back to the bench, including Stewart. Bordy stood up and started yelling at their bench and told them if anyone touches Olver, he'll go after them, and their star players.

What happened? Nothing. Stewart and the Blues shut the hell up, and there were no fights, or even penalties the rest of the 3rd period, and there were no fights in the back to back games at the end of the year after that either.

Say what you will about enforcers but they do settle things down. No one has a crystal ball, but I would hazard a guess things might have been at least a little different if Bordy hadn't been there to do that.

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06-07-2013, 04:36 PM
  #153
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I feel like the people complaining about having a "goon" are the same ones who have never played hockey or haven't played since they were small children.

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06-07-2013, 04:40 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
The proof was in the pudding last year when Olver laid out their star rookie Tarasenko. The Blues were screaming at him when he went back to the bench, including Stewart. Bordy stood up and started yelling at their bench and told them if anyone touches Olver, he'll go after them, and their star players.

What happened? Nothing. Stewart and the Blues shut the hell up, and there were no fights, or even penalties the rest of the 3rd period, and there were no fights in the back to back games at the end of the year after that either.

Say what you will about enforcers but they do settle things down. No one has a crystal ball, but I would hazard a guess things might have been at least a little different if Bordy hadn't been there to do that.
This is exactly what Bordy brings. Great post!

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06-07-2013, 04:40 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
The proof was in the pudding last year when Olver laid out their star rookie Tarasenko. The Blues were screaming at him when he went back to the bench, including Stewart. Bordy stood up and started yelling at their bench and told them if anyone touches Olver, he'll go after them, and their star players.

What happened? Nothing. Stewart and the Blues shut the hell up, and there were no fights, or even penalties the rest of the 3rd period, and there were no fights in the back to back games at the end of the year after that either.

Say what you will about enforcers but they do settle things down. No one has a crystal ball, but I would hazard a guess things might have been at least a little different if Bordy hadn't been there to do that.
Nothing else most likely happened because Olver didn't play much more than Bordeleau as a fourth line player and the game was tied so St. Louis didn't want to put the Avs on the power play. Much more likely scenario than Bordeleau "scaring" the Blues bench into submission.

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06-07-2013, 04:45 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Huis Clos View Post
Nothing else most likely happened because Olver didn't play much more than Bordeleau as a fourth line player and the game was tied so St. Louis didn't want to put the Avs on the power play. Much more likely scenario than Bordeleau "scaring" the Blues bench into submission.
Nice convenient excuse. I'm sure that applies to the next two games they played at the end of the year too. I also suppose no one has ever retaliated or reacted to a hit they didn't like because there are always games to be won, and they never want to risk giving up a penalty.

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06-07-2013, 04:53 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
The proof was in the pudding last year when Olver laid out their star rookie Tarasenko. The Blues were screaming at him when he went back to the bench, including Stewart. Bordy stood up and started yelling at their bench and told them if anyone touches Olver, he'll go after them, and their star players.
What is the source for that information? It's quite rare for specific bench conversations to be made public.

Like I said, I can see the possibilities. I can't help feel that it's a bit overstated though.

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06-07-2013, 04:55 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
What is the source for that information?

Like I said, I can see the possibilities. I can't help feel that it's a bit overstated though.
It was in the broadcast of the game. I remember it because Stewart was chirping the bench over the break and Bordy shut him up... the announcers made sure to bring it up when the commercial break was over.

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06-07-2013, 04:58 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Nice convenient excuse. I'm sure that applies to the next two games they played at the end of the year too. I also suppose no one has ever retaliated or reacted to a hit they didn't like because there are always games to be won, and they never want to risk giving up a penalty.
Yes, but there's a time and a place.

And that Olver hit really wasn't very dirty in the first place. I suspect once players' emotions calmed down, they realized this.

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06-07-2013, 04:59 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
It was in the broadcast of the game. I remember it because Stewart was chirping the bench over the break and Bordy shut him up... the announcers made sure to bring it up when the commercial break was over.
Thanks. I figured it was probably when an announcer was standing between the benches.

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06-07-2013, 05:09 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Yes, but there's a time and a place.

And that Olver hit really wasn't very dirty in the first place. I suspect once players' emotions calmed down, they realized this.
It's obvious some people have an opinion (not necessarily you AB) that he doesn't really serve a valuable purpose on the team. There's been exaggerations and untruths told by some about him being a poor skater, or a penalty liability, or bad defensively. None of which is really true. I had to point out plays showing what a good skater he is, and others had to point out his lack of hooking and non fighting type of penalties.

Then people question the general effectiveness of an enforcer calming down the opposition and protecting their teammates. I provide a good example of this happening, and now there's a bunch of rationalization about Bordy not being the reason the bench went from screaming to doing nothing in seven periods after that.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's clear those opinions aren't going to change in this regard.

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06-07-2013, 07:14 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
It's obvious some people have an opinion (not necessarily you AB)
Oh, I don't know, Foppa. I have some strong opinions about some topics, too. Sometimes, I'm even right.

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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
that he doesn't really serve a valuable purpose on the team. There's been exaggerations and untruths told by some about him being a poor skater, or a penalty liability, or bad defensively. None of which is really true.
But that's opinion also. I don't feel he's a big penalty liability, nor terribly bad defensively (I believe he's both position- and opposing-player- aware in the defensive zone). But I do believe his skating leaves a lot to be desired. He's limited. Thus, his 4th line status - and his inability to make the NHL until age 26.

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, Then people question the general effectiveness of an enforcer calming down the opposition and protecting their teammates. I provide a good example of this happening,
That was pretty cool of you, but are there an equal number of clips out there showing he's not?

I actually personally enjoy this debate, because I'm not really sure what the correct answer is. You've made good points, some other people have made some good opposing points also. I see both sides of this.

In the end, he's signed, and I'm not bummed about it per se. I don't see the need for two tough guys on the 4th line, and the team is really missing a PK guy on the depth lines, so I hope that gets dealt with this Summer. If that happens, I'm pretty OK with Bordeleau on the roster.

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06-07-2013, 07:35 PM
  #163
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McLeod isn't really an enforcer. He's a grinder that drops the gloves against other middleweights. He's not a particularly good fighter and you can't ask him to take on heavyweights.

He's more like Asham, Jackman and Hendricks. I don't think it's a coincidence that McLeod had his best year in a long time this season when Bordeleau took on the enforcing role on the team.

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06-08-2013, 09:19 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
Why does Thornton not count?

Ruling Thornton out... Eager with Chicago might count depending on your definition. If not, Eric Godard with the Pens. A lot of the teams since the 04-05 lockout have had 'goons' or players that attempt to play that role... roughly half of the cup winners have had players in that role.
Because Thornton can actually play a shift and is a pretty decent fourth line option.

So can Ben Eager, who I would actually like on the Avs as a legit player and not just a thug.

Eric Godard didn't play a single playoff game as a member of the Penguins.

Anyway, my point was that pure enforcers don't make your team better. Patrick Bordeleau got a whole five points in 46 games, and honestly most of those were pretty much luck.

There's a reason teams that are good, and especially teams in the playoffs. One of the reasons is that they don't play guys that are pure goons and can barely hold down a shift ala Patrick Bordeleau..because they don't make your team better. I would much rather go find a decent fourth liner who does things like penalty kill and block shots over a guy who brings some supposed "toughness" by fighting the other teams tin can once in a while.

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06-08-2013, 09:25 AM
  #165
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Compared to Thornton, Bordeleau is a pure goon.

But if we compare him to last say, Paul Bissonette. Bordeleau is obvisouly much more.

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06-08-2013, 09:45 AM
  #166
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Bordy looks like he could be a Boll level guy. Great fighter, huge hitter and solid fourth liner.

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06-08-2013, 10:17 AM
  #167
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Thornton is 35 and people act like he established himself in the NHL when he was 22 and was as good as he is now... He wasn't... He was 29 and he was worse than he was now. Bordy still has room to grow as a player, younger when he established himself than Thornton, a decent 4th line player already, and hits more per minute than almost anybody in the league (almost 40 more hits than Thornton). He is also bigger than almost any goon and can skate better than most of them. He has potential to develop into a above average/good 4th line player while being an enforcer... at 6'6" those players don't come around real often (worst case, like Lonewolf said he is a Boll level player).

If we make the playoffs, I would fully expect Bordy to be in the pressbox unless the series got out of hand. He can play 60-70 games during the regular season and not hurt this team one bit.


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06-08-2013, 11:27 AM
  #168
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If we make the playoffs, I would fully expect Bordy to be in the pressbox unless the series got out of hand. He can play 60-70 games during the regular season and not hurt this team one bit.
And he'd have no problem watching from the press box knowing he contributed as best as he could, and he will root harder for his teammates than anybody else.

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06-08-2013, 03:34 PM
  #169
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If we make the playoffs, I would fully expect Bordy to be in the pressbox unless the series got out of hand. He can play 60-70 games during the regular season and not hurt this team one bit.
That's only because he played the softest minutes of anyone on the team. Put him in situations where he starts in the defensive zone and I think you might see some of his shortcomings. As far as goons go, he's a very solid player, yes, but not hurt the team one bit when playing a role that large? I'm not sure I'd go there.

I think it's a good move to re-up him, don't get me wrong, but I think Sacco dressed him for too many games.

My problem with Sacco putting Bordeleau on a regular shift every night was that it forced him to put other players in a position to fail, or at the very least, forced them into roles that limited their usefulness.

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06-08-2013, 04:12 PM
  #170
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That's only because he played the softest minutes of anyone on the team. Put him in situations where he starts in the defensive zone and I think you might see some of his shortcomings.
Not hurt the team one bit when playing a role that large? I'm not sure I'd go there.

I think Sacco dressed him for too many games.

My problem with Sacco putting Bordeleau on a regular shift every night was that it forced him to put other players in a position to fail, or at the very least, forced them into roles that limited their usefulness.
(I cut some of your post to make it shorter and not waste as much space)
For once I agree with you. Bordy should not play much, and only when his skills are actually needed. Having him waste a roster spot for a guy who could kill penalties or at very least play better d and have a better D-zone coverage is something that needs to be addressed.
Having Bordy start 61% of all his starts in the O-zone is something that shouldn't happen for a 4th liner.

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