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2013-14 Flyers Overhaul Part II

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06-07-2013, 07:34 PM
  #376
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we need to focus on offense. Giroux needs a winger. I know we need a stabilizer on defense but no one is replacing pronger. i mean were not getting that core of player unless we trade what i don't think we should be willing to trade to get them. its all about patience. i got some news. we aint winning the cup next year either. were mostly young and we can't get crazy trying to live in the past. the window from 2010 closed. this is a new team. if laviolette is gonna stay we need to provide him with quick slickness on the wing and another shot from the point on defense. couts needs to stay. he's too ****** good to trade because everybody lost faith after a pressure packed second year. relax. most of these "plans" stem from impatience. trading couturier is stupid.

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06-07-2013, 07:48 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
While I agree that drafting a d-man is the way to go, is everyone fine with waiting for 5 years for that player to make an impact? Meanwhile, all of our young players are on larger contracts(Giroux, Couts, Schenn) and Voracek is a UFA.

The whole point of drafting BPA is to later make trades for need. Guess what, w have a major need. BUT, we also have EXTRA of what other teams are looking for. And that is centers.

The team(GM and Snider) need to pick which way to go and STAY with it. If they are going to try and win in 4-5 years, then make trades TODAY to try and make that happen. Go to Hartnell and tell him the new plan. See if he will waive to help the team in the future. Trade Talbot. Don't re-sign Gagne. Tell Kimmo and ask the top 5 teams he would like to go to. Trade Grossmann, Coburn and Mez for younger D-men or picks. Replace them with UFA's that don't kill the cap. Buyout Bryz. Get a coach that plays to the players STRENGTHS. HOLD EVERYONE ACCOUNTABLE. Make a plan AND STICK TO IT.
Well I don't think there's any defensemen in this draft that will make a big impact next year. That includes Jones even though he'll more than likely still play in the NHL next year. After that I would take it one year at a time and not put time tables on it. Things could change drastically a year from now for all we know.

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06-07-2013, 07:50 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
1) What available forward can match Couturier's defense?
I thought I have made it abundantly clear in pretty much every single one of my posts that I am 100%, unequivocally, not saying that someone will be here next year that would be as good or better than Couturier. I know there will be a downgrade at 3C.

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2) What can you do to disprove all the statistics that show Yandle is a very sheltered Dman who has been kept out of difficult defensive situations? Up until this point Yandle has done nothing to show he's great defensively. From what I can tell he's Carle with a harder shot, which isn't something I'd trade Couturier+ for.
Maybe I haven't seen these stats you are talking about because from what I have seen from him, and the stats that I have seen from him show that he is a top pairing defender. What stats are you talking about? Also, as I have said, I am not suggesting we bet the farm on Yandle and trade a ton for him. Once again, in nearly all of my posts I have said that if the deal was Couturier + something of value, I WOULD NOT make the trade. Are you even reading my posts or do you just see the words "trade," "Couturier," and "Yandle" and just make up the rest?

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The way I see it, this move very clearly makes the team worse defensively. Possible offensively as well, depening on who else goes with Coots. And, we have a goalie who has shown he's utterly incapable of bailing out an average defense, I don't want to know what he looks like behind a downright bad D.
I don't see it that way, but again, this really isn't something you can quantify for a number of reasons. Couturier is a center, Yandle is defender. We don't know who would be going along with Couturier. We don't know who would be replacing Couturier. In a couple months if things go down, we would have a better idea and the argument could really be fleshed out more. At this point, its nothing more than my opinion vs. yours.

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06-07-2013, 08:01 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I thought I have made it abundantly clear in pretty much every single one of my posts that I am 100%, unequivocally, not saying that someone will be here next year that would be as good or better than Couturier. I know there will be a downgrade at 3C.



Maybe I haven't seen these stats you are talking about because from what I have seen from him, and the stats that I have seen from him show that he is a top pairing defender. What stats are you talking about? Also, as I have said, I am not suggesting we bet the farm on Yandle and trade a ton for him. Once again, in nearly all of my posts I have said that if the deal was Couturier + something of value, I WOULD NOT make the trade. Are you even reading my posts or do you just see the words "trade," "Couturier," and "Yandle" and just make up the rest?



I don't see it that way, but again, this really isn't something you can quantify for a number of reasons. Couturier is a center, Yandle is defender. We don't know who would be going along with Couturier. We don't know who would be replacing Couturier. In a couple months if things go down, we would have a better idea and the argument could really be fleshed out more. At this point, its nothing more than my opinion vs. yours.
I forget who looked, but they checked Yandle's stats and found he was given sheltered minutes against easy competition. That's not a ringing endorsement. He barely had any PK time at all (in the 3 mins, total, for the season range), too. The team just gets worse in their own zone, which is the last thing we need with Bryz in net...then we're back to playing the "I hope we can outscore our goalie!" game. I wouldn't overpay for him. He's 26. He shouldn't be getting sheltered minutes anymore...that's a red flag; it indicates he's one dimensional. I'm thoroughly against overpaying for an offensive specialist because it happens to fit an immediate need. That screams "knee-jerk reaction."

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06-07-2013, 08:07 PM
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
1) What available forward can match Couturier's defense?

2) What can you do to disprove all the statistics that show Yandle is a very sheltered Dman who has been kept out of difficult defensive situations? Up until this point Yandle has done nothing to show he's great defensively. From what I can tell he's Carle with a harder shot, which isn't something I'd trade Couturier+ for.

The way I see it, this move very clearly makes the team worse defensively. Possible offensively as well, depending on who else goes with Coots. And, we have a goalie who has shown he's utterly incapable of bailing out an average defense, I don't want to know what he looks like behind a downright bad D.

1) No forward available will be as good a defensive forward as Coots.
Laughton might be an adequate replacement for him.
We could always pickup a defensive center as FA.

2) This teams defensive shortcomings are due to lack of PMD.
Yandle is a PMD, he can help by carrying the puck, making good outlet passes.
This defense has only one experienced player like that - Timmo.

The way I see it a defenseman is more critical to good defense than a forward could ever be.
Getting a better defenseman for a struggling defense makes the defense better not worse.

I might accept the idea that Couturier could become a superstar but, to accept him as more
important to team defense than a good young experienced offensive defenseman.
Not happening. I see Couturier as luxury, we can not afford with this poor defense.

Our new defenseman helps the defense > we give up less goals.
We amnesty Bryz > we give up less goals.

Win, win situation.


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06-07-2013, 08:14 PM
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I forget who looked, but they checked Yandle's stats and found he was given sheltered minutes against easy competition. That's not a ringing endorsement. He barely had any PK time at all (in the 3 mins, total, for the season range), too. The team just gets worse in their own zone, which is the last thing we need with Bryz in net...then we're back to playing the "I hope we can outscore our goalie!" game. I wouldn't overpay for him. He's 26. He shouldn't be getting sheltered minutes anymore...that's a red flag; it indicates he's one dimensional. I'm thoroughly against overpaying for an offensive specialist because it happens to fit an immediate need. That screams "knee-jerk reaction."
I haven't seen those stats so I can't really make any comments about them. If they are true, it doesn't necessarily mean that he CAN'T play more high-pressure minutes, only that he HASN'T played more high-pressure minutes. As far as the PK time goes, if he can't hang on the PK, you still have Grossmann, Coburn, Timonen, and Schenn (as well as Gus who is a top four defender, right?) who can handle the PK.

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06-07-2013, 08:17 PM
  #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I forget who looked, but they checked Yandle's stats and found he was given sheltered minutes against easy competition. That's not a ringing endorsement. He barely had any PK time at all (in the 3 mins, total, for the season range), too. The team just gets worse in their own zone, which is the last thing we need with Bryz in net...then we're back to playing the "I hope we can outscore our goalie!" game. I wouldn't overpay for him. He's 26. He shouldn't be getting sheltered minutes anymore...that's a red flag; it indicates he's one dimensional. I'm thoroughly against overpaying for an offensive specialist because it happens to fit an immediate need. That screams "knee-jerk reaction."
I think that the deductions we;re making about Yandle's game from those numbers might be going a tiny bit too far. He isn't the best defender on his team, but he's not at all bad either. If his soft qualcomp were going to make me reassess any part of his game it would be his offensive production before his defensive ability.

If you look at any offensively gifted player who plays for a team that has limited talent in that regard, their quacomp numbers had better be pretty low. If they're not then the team's coach is not doing his job getting match-ups to maximize what he's working with. Additionally, he and OEL play on different pairings, so I think a lot of the hard minutes are given to OEL's pairing.

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06-07-2013, 08:26 PM
  #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I forget who looked, but they checked Yandle's stats and found he was given sheltered minutes against easy competition. That's not a ringing endorsement. He barely had any PK time at all (in the 3 mins, total, for the season range), too. The team just gets worse in their own zone, which is the last thing we need with Bryz in net...then we're back to playing the "I hope we can outscore our goalie!" game. I wouldn't overpay for him. He's 26. He shouldn't be getting sheltered minutes anymore...that's a red flag; it indicates he's one dimensional. I'm thoroughly against overpaying for an offensive specialist because it happens to fit an immediate need. That screams "knee-jerk reaction."
Twas I. At least I have on here.

As a player, I wouldn't mind. However, considering the rumored names we'd have to give up, it would have the makings of the Jack Johnson-Jeff Carter trade, where the other team would not only be getting the better player, but the guy within their system would be better than the guy they traded (Voynov).

He got 60% offensive zone starts, which means he's not moving the puck, someone else is and he's coming out for the faceoff (and the coach knows this). This while having the easiest QoC of any defenseman on the team. There's also probably a reason why the Coyotes were trying to trade him after 1 year of a 5-year contract

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06-07-2013, 08:53 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Well I don't think there's any defensemen in this draft that will make a big impact next year. That includes Jones even though he'll more than likely still play in the NHL next year. After that I would take it one year at a time and not put time tables on it. Things could change drastically a year from now for all we know.
Yes, but we all know D-men tend to take longer. And saying 5 years makes that D-man only 23. I just want us to draft a d-man that ends up better than expected...like our forwards that we have drafted have become. Sort of like Karlsson at #15 for Ottawa. That kind of luck changes the team dramatically.

Would you guys look at drafting Subban with our 2nd rounder? Yes he is small, but talented and can skate. He could end up being a steal...or a bust. Thoughts?

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06-07-2013, 09:16 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
1) No forward available will be as good a defensive forward as Coots.
Laughton might be an adequate replacement for him.
We could always pickup a defensive center as FA.

2) This teams defensive shortcomings are due to lack of PMD.
Yandle is a PMD, he can help by carrying the puck, making good outlet passes.
This defense has only one experienced player like that - Timmo.

The way I see it a defenseman is more critical to good defense than a forward could ever be.
Getting a better defenseman for a struggling defense makes the defense better not worse.

I might accept the idea that Couturier could become a superstar but, to accept him as more
important to team defense than a good young experienced offensive defenseman.
Not happening. I see Couturier as luxury, we can not afford with this poor defense.

Our new defenseman helps the defense > we give up less goals.
We amnesty Bryz > we give up less goals.

Win, win situation.
As GKJ pointed out, the majority of Yandle's starts come in the offensive zone, so he isn't even moving the puck up the ice 60% of the time.

The problem isn't a lack of PMD. A huge part of the problem is the forwards themselves and a bad breakout plan that kept them hemmed in. Trading Couturier makes part of that problem worse. It actually makes both parts worse, because Coots is really good at moving the puck out of the zone himself.


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06-07-2013, 09:22 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I haven't seen those stats so I can't really make any comments about them. If they are true, it doesn't necessarily mean that he CAN'T play more high-pressure minutes, only that he HASN'T played more high-pressure minutes. As far as the PK time goes, if he can't hang on the PK, you still have Grossmann, Coburn, Timonen, and Schenn (as well as Gus who is a top four defender, right?) who can handle the PK.
I just don't see how that justifies trading Couturier + for him.

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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I think that the deductions we;re making about Yandle's game from those numbers might be going a tiny bit too far. He isn't the best defender on his team, but he's not at all bad either. If his soft qualcomp were going to make me reassess any part of his game it would be his offensive production before his defensive ability.

If you look at any offensively gifted player who plays for a team that has limited talent in that regard, their quacomp numbers had better be pretty low. If they're not then the team's coach is not doing his job getting match-ups to maximize what he's working with. Additionally, he and OEL play on different pairings, so I think a lot of the hard minutes are given to OEL's pairing.
I think there's too much risk of him being a Carle/Coburn 2.0; rely on them to do some heavy lifting and you're in trouble. He's still being used 1 dimensionally at an age where one would hope he's earning ice time in all situations. I'd feel much, much better about him if he did more than play in the offensive zone on ES and PP situations. I feel no need to spend out the peen to get him.

Dmen are at a premium now. It's a seller's market, which is detrimental to us...especially since we have nowhere near enough organizational depth to cover an overpayment.

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06-07-2013, 09:36 PM
  #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I think there's too much risk of him being a Carle/Coburn 2.0; rely on them to do some heavy lifting and you're in trouble. He's still being used 1 dimensionally at an age where one would hope he's earning ice time in all situations. I'd feel much, much better about him if he did more than play in the offensive zone on ES and PP situations. I feel no need to spend out the peen to get him.

Dmen are at a premium now. It's a seller's market, which is detrimental to us...especially since we have nowhere near enough organizational depth to cover an overpayment.
I agree with all of that. I'm not a big fan of the idea of getting him. We would have ot pay more than it's worth our while to, and his contract isn't a steal really. I posted what I did not as an endrsement of the idea of trading Couts for him (because as much as I don't want to get Yandle, I don't want to trade COuturier even more). I was just offering the thought as something to consider.

I'm with you regarding the market for d-men also. I think we need to embrace the idea that the big name guy isn't coming in to make things all better, at least not soon. And if he does, he's going to cost so god damn much we won't be happy to see him anyway. These guys are just going to have to do it by commitee for the foreseeable future. They have the ability as a group I think, with a little more forward help and better goalie play they can perform well. Probably not well enough to win a Cup in the nex couple years but what the hell...

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06-07-2013, 09:39 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I just don't see how that justifies trading Couturier + for him.
It justifies the trade because I am not agreeing with your conclusions about Yandle's abilities.

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06-07-2013, 09:41 PM
  #389
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Yes, but we all know D-men tend to take longer. And saying 5 years makes that D-man only 23. I just want us to draft a d-man that ends up better than expected...like our forwards that we have drafted have become. Sort of like Karlsson at #15 for Ottawa. That kind of luck changes the team dramatically.

Would you guys look at drafting Subban with our 2nd rounder? Yes he is small, but talented and can skate. He could end up being a steal...or a bust. Thoughts?
Yup, you could say 5 years is the rule of thumb. As of late though a lot defensemen are breaking out before their 5th year of being drafted. A lot of them are drafted outside the top 10 off the top of my head, I'll post a list later. It does require luck though, hopefully it's on our side if we draft a defensemen this year.

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06-07-2013, 10:02 PM
  #390
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While I agree that drafting a d-man is the way to go, is everyone fine with waiting for 5 years for that player to make an impact? Meanwhile, all of our young players are on larger contracts(Giroux, Couts, Schenn) and Voracek is a UFA.

The whole point of drafting BPA is to later make trades for need. Guess what, w have a major need. BUT, we also have EXTRA of what other teams are looking for. And that is centers.

The team(GM and Snider) need to pick which way to go and STAY with it. If they are going to try and win in 4-5 years, then make trades TODAY to try and make that happen. Go to Hartnell and tell him the new plan. See if he will waive to help the team in the future. Trade Talbot. Don't re-sign Gagne. Tell Kimmo and ask the top 5 teams he would like to go to. Trade Grossmann, Coburn and Mez for younger D-men or picks. Replace them with UFA's that don't kill the cap. Buyout Bryz. Get a coach that plays to the players STRENGTHS. HOLD EVERYONE ACCOUNTABLE. Make a plan AND STICK TO IT.
I don't think it has to be that drastic.

There is always next year. Who though Patrick Roy would ever be available until he was.

I guess my thing is that we are not winning this year, there is little point in selling low on couturier, or any other young players we have, right now. It would hurt alot less if we were trying to trade for Weber last year, and could have dealt 3 assets for him, but still had something else in the cupboard.

I mean, we have Ghost penciled in already, and its debatable if he's any better than like 6 of the islanders D prospects.


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06-07-2013, 10:04 PM
  #391
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Yup, you could say 5 years is the rule of thumb. As of late though a lot defensemen are breaking out before their 5th year of being drafted. A lot of them are drafted outside the top 10 off the top of my head, I'll post a list later. It does require luck though, hopefully it's on our side if we draft a defensemen this year.
It requires alot of luck. Its hard to draft kids at 18 and know what kind of men they will become.

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06-07-2013, 10:45 PM
  #392
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It justifies the trade because I am not agreeing with your conclusions about Yandle's abilities.
I think by BEEF likes to downgrade Yandle's ability he can feel better about keeping Couturier.
Even though, he is the key to improving this rotten defense.
Yandle will not make our defense great, but he will certainly improve it.

IMHO, our defense not going to fix itself, no matter how many years you wait.
Either draft some top defensive prospects or trade for them.
Hoping to find them on the cheap (lower draft picks) and develop them = FAIL.

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06-08-2013, 12:06 AM
  #393
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Couturier for Gormley + Boyd Gordon.

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06-08-2013, 12:19 AM
  #394
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This team had terrible defensive play from the forwards lately and people want to trade our best defensive forward in Couturier. He also has top potential if he can improve on his skating. I don't understand that.

The forwards were more of a problem than the d-men on this team last season. You can't just expect the D's to be the only ones playing defense. Look at Boston, that team plays a TEAM game and everyone is responsible for their own position. Most of the Flyer forwards only seem to want to think offense all the time when in fact they need to learn to play more sound positional defense. I don't remember the forwards being that bad on defense when Pronger was in the game, but that is because you would actually see him out there yelling at the forwards at times to get back and play D.

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06-08-2013, 12:33 AM
  #395
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I think by BEEF likes to downgrade Yandle's ability he can feel better about keeping Couturier.
Even though, he is the key to improving this rotten defense.
Yandle will not make our defense great, but he will certainly improve it.

IMHO, our defense not going to fix itself, no matter how many years you wait.
Either draft some top defensive prospects or trade for them.
Hoping to find them on the cheap (lower draft picks) and develop them = FAIL.
A lot of top defensemen come on those later draft picks. It's far from a failing strategy, definitely better than gutting your team to buy someone. Congrats, you have a #1 dman...now you have to spend years rebuilding anyways. We don't have lots of extra players to trade anymore (thanks to trading them all, and the picks used to get more), so we'd be paying dearly and punching holes in the roster.

I'm not downgrading Yandle...if anything, you're overrating the impact he can have if you think he can magically make the forwards play better in their own end, fix the breakout Lavi refused to adjust, and magically start getting more defensive zone starts where he actually moves the puck up, while performing against harder competition. I'm telling you he's not nearly as good as he's made out to be. He's not 22 years old anymore, he's 26 and very one dimensional...what you're seeing now is likely what he's gonna be, more or less, for the rest of his career. I'm far from the only person to make that assessment. That's not worth an overpayment, plain and simple.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Yandle, but not for the cost required. And that's not just limited to Couturier. If he's costing us any major forward that's a blow the team doesn't have the ability to fix. Defensemen have too much value and we have too few expendable assets to bother trading for them. Whether you want to admit it or not (it appears you don't want to), there is simply no way to get a dman outside of developing yourself without giving them a massive contract in FA, or overpaying in a trade. That's more likely to set the franchise back or at best act as a step sideways, than it is likely to improve the team.

IMO, Yandle is not going to improve the D enough to justify his cost.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 06-08-2013 at 12:53 AM.
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06-08-2013, 01:02 AM
  #396
achdumeingute
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Yandle, but not for the cost required. And that's not just limited to Couturier. If he's costing us any major forward that's a blow the team doesn't have the ability to fix. Defensemen have too much value and we have too few expendable assets to bother trading for them. Whether you want to admit it or not (it appears you don't want to), there is simply no way to get a dman outside of developing yourself without giving them a massive contract in FA, or overpaying in a trade. That's more likely to set the franchise back or at best act as a step sideways, than it is likely to improve the team.

IMO, Yandle is not going to improve the D enough to justify his cost.
here we go agreeing again.

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06-08-2013, 01:16 AM
  #397
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I think by BEEF likes to downgrade Yandle's ability he can feel better about keeping Couturier.
Even though, he is the key to improving this rotten defense.
Yandle will not make our defense great, but he will certainly improve it.

IMHO, our defense not going to fix itself, no matter how many years you wait.
Either draft some top defensive prospects or trade for them.
Hoping to find them on the cheap (lower draft picks) and develop them = FAIL.

All you have to do is to look at how many dmen we drafted outside the 1st rnd in the last 5+ years and how NONE of them have panned out to see that this "draft a bunch, throw **** at the wall. see what sticks" mentality of "building defense from within" hasn't worked. The percentage of players drafted in the 2nd rnd who actually become quality NHL players is pretty small. The percentage of them that become #1 or #2 dmen is smaller than a gnats ass. If we are going to commit to building our defense from within then we damned well had better start using some quality first rnd picks to draft some.

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06-08-2013, 01:32 AM
  #398
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Originally Posted by Wiqkid View Post
Couturier for Gormley + Boyd Gordon.
that is HORRIBLE from a Flyers POV.

On this whole Couturier for Yandle discussion count me in in the no deal group. It would be a mistake to trade Couturier. There are very few defenseman who i would trade him for given what Couturier upside is and more then likely those defenseman are not available.
Now I do like Yandle. I think he could help this team. But not at the cost of Couturier.

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06-08-2013, 04:47 AM
  #399
dats81
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Yes, but we all know D-men tend to take longer. And saying 5 years makes that D-man only 23. I just want us to draft a d-man that ends up better than expected...like our forwards that we have drafted have become. Sort of like Karlsson at #15 for Ottawa. That kind of luck changes the team dramatically.

Would you guys look at drafting Subban with our 2nd rounder? Yes he is small, but talented and can skate. He could end up being a steal...or a bust. Thoughts?
His size is the only thing that is holding him back. Beside that he has the skillset of a first rounder.

So, yes ...why not? He would definitely be better than what we usually pick in the second.
There's also a chance that he slides to the 3rd round or later.

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06-08-2013, 09:28 AM
  #400
Larry44
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Originally Posted by dats81 View Post
His size is the only thing that is holding him back. Beside that he has the skillset of a first rounder.

So, yes ...why not? He would definitely be better than what we usually pick in the second.
There's also a chance that he slides to the 3rd round or later.
Subban is really fast and skilled. And he may still grow a bit. If he's as strong as PK, his height won't be a problem.

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