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Are we there yet?

View Poll Results: ARE WE THERE YET??
No. We are far from making the Cup Finals 14 16.28%
No. We are at least 7 years away. 3 3.49%
No. We are 5-7 years away 15 17.44%
Yes. We will be playing for the cup in 3-5 years 39 45.35%
Yes. We will be playing for the Cup in 3 years 15 17.44%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-08-2013, 11:27 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
The key part isn't Chara's "bigness" its his "eliteness" replace him with a Lidstrom and the results are largely the same. Chara's size really matters to the extent it helps him be one of the best defensemen in the league.
I'm not sure about that. He isn't nearly as talented as Lidstrom was, but his size just works in that Boston system. I know what you are saying, but Bourque couldn't win a cup with Boston, so I'm not sure Lidstrom would have delivered either.

Were you suggesting swapping Lidstrom with Chara would end up with the same results in Boston?

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06-08-2013, 12:02 PM
  #102
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2 years and a few players away I'd say.
I've been hearing some variation on this for about ten years now ("Hey if we hadn't had that meltdown in game 4 against the Hurricanes we'd have been up 3-1 in that series and probably gone to the conference final! So we just need to add a couple of the right parts and we'll be there!"). I'd like to think we're at that point now for real, but I really can't believe it until I see it.

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06-08-2013, 01:23 PM
  #103
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Boston is destroying Pittsburgh who destroyed Ottawa who destroyed the Habs. What's a fan to think?

It's all a lot to take in, but by this year's performance in the playoffs the Habs have a way to go. The topic is a more honest discussion than had the Habs lost in game 7 to the team that eventually wins the cup. Like 2011.

Boston proves that strength and depth gets more important as the other teams play tough games and eventually wilt by comparison. They are third round strong and the habs were first round weak.
That is a rather narrow-minded perspective and lacks proper context. Toronto was seconds away from eliminating Boston and I'd wager their roster trumps Ottawa's. I would not call the Leafs a conference contending team, but there was a real possibility they could have qualified. We lost primarily because the team overachieved and it caught up to them at the worst possible team. This team still has a plethora of kids making up the core and there will be development hurdles.

Are we there yet? No, however we are close. We need some additional scoring depth and/or another contributing defenseman. Give it another year or two and I believe the Habs will make the jump into consistent cup contender, depending what impact the kids have.

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06-08-2013, 04:11 PM
  #104
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I'm not sure about that. He isn't nearly as talented as Lidstrom was, but his size just works in that Boston system. I know what you are saying, but Bourque couldn't win a cup with Boston, so I'm not sure Lidstrom would have delivered either.

Were you suggesting swapping Lidstrom with Chara would end up with the same results in Boston?
I think he's just saying that Chara's size isn't necessarily what makes him or the bruins so good. You replace him with another perrenial norris contender and you've got more or less the same team. Image, attitude and playstyle wise, he's a perfect fit there, though.

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06-08-2013, 04:19 PM
  #105
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I think he's just saying that Chara's size isn't necessarily what makes him or the bruins so good. You replace him with another perrenial norris contender and you've got more or less the same team. Image, attitude and playstyle wise, he's a perfect fit there, though.
I don't think so.

Chara, just like you said, is a perfect fit for the kind of team they have. Much like Leonidas was a crazy mofo in 300, he's the image you think of when you think of the Bruins, a huge tough player. I don't think that if you would replace him with Karlsson or Letang you'd get the same results. Obviously, I picked the softiest of the softies for the sake of my argument.

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06-08-2013, 04:45 PM
  #106
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The Habs aren't close to the top of the mountain but they're already above the plain and they no longer need retreads like Michael Ryder. If some of their prospects come through they should be capable of winning a playoff round by 2014 or 2015. It would be foolhardy to predict a championship. It depends not only on their progress but also on their rivals. Eventually Chara, Jagr, and Iginla will retire or slow down and we've seen how vulnerable the Penguins are in goal if they have to bypass their #1 goaltender in favor of a 36-year-old. On the other hand, the non-playoff teams should benefit from the entry draft.

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06-08-2013, 04:58 PM
  #107
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I don't think so.

Chara, just like you said, is a perfect fit for the kind of team they have. Much like Leonidas was a crazy mofo in 300, he's the image you think of when you think of the Bruins, a huge tough player. I don't think that if you would replace him with Karlsson or Letang you'd get the same results. Obviously, I picked the softiest of the softies for the sake of my argument.
Ah, no. That was my mistake. I used Norris contender and forgot that it can be applied to swiss-cheese defensmen who put up lots of points lately.

In the end I think the lesson was just that his size in itself is not what makes chara good, but it's one of the factors that contribute to just how effective he is. (especially in the dead puck era playoffs).

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06-08-2013, 05:01 PM
  #108
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Ah, no. That was my mistake. I used Norris contender and forgot that it can be applied to swiss-cheese defensmen who put up lots of points lately.

In the end I think the lesson was just that his size in itself is not what makes chara good, but it's one of the factors that contribute to just how effective he is. (especially in the dead puck era playoffs).
Dead-puck-bruins-era

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06-08-2013, 06:17 PM
  #109
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I always thought and still think that Montreal wont compete until they have a number one center. Hopefully Galchenyuk will become that . Other weaknesses of Montreal would be size in top6 and defensive depth. Gionta will probably(hopefully) not be re-signed and if DD stays he wont be in the top6 so that will definetly help. Also all of our defenseman prospect are 1-4 years away from the NHL so our defense will be better soon enough. 3-5 years is the best time frame since the 2012 and 2013 draft prospects we will acquire will be 1-2 years in the NHL
agreed 100% about 3 years away if things go well

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06-08-2013, 06:21 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
This team is simply not built to survive 4 rounds of attrition in 1-0/2-1 games against good teams that also have the physical edge. That much is obvious.
GREAT COMMENT

SO START FIXING IT

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06-08-2013, 06:25 PM
  #111
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in what world is markov a 4/5th d? You do realize that he finished the season 4th in points, 3rd in goals, 1st in pp goals, 1st in gwg, was in the top 30 for toi. His only negative was his +/- and that is basically a result of a cold streak when he went -13 in 12 games.
he looked like a 4/5 the last 10 games and was average or below average in the playoffs when it counts

points mean nothing , r u going to put ribeiro in the top 5 centers cause he put up nice points this year

u take him over krejci ?

Markov looked old , 2 steps slow after 50 games , his best days r behind him

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06-08-2013, 07:26 PM
  #112
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Personally, I don't think we can become a Penguins or Blackhawks because those are teams who got back to back high picks, and got superstars both times...If we follow McGuire's 7 player profile: (etc.)
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I don't think you are using the same definition for players that Mcguire does. I mean he's said Chicago had 3 Elite centermen in Toews, Sharp and Bolland. If Sharp and Bolland are considered Elite then so should Plekanec and Eller. He's mentioned Markov would have been considered the stabilizing D pre-injury, which means Subban could be placed there and Markov could be the offensive D.
The point I took out of schumway2's post is that there's the multi-player model & the two superstars model.

Different eras seem to have different formulae come to the fore. In the days of early Dryden and Parent, it seemed like a Franchise Goaltender could give you a chance by himself. I think those days are gone, or at least on hiatus. When Edmonton and Pittsburgh were winning all those times, it seemed like the team with the best-performing superstar would carry the day. That looks like it's over, too.

One thing is pretty timeless, though. A Franchise (or, if not a Franchise, an Elite) Goaltender + a responsible team defensive concept gives you a chance in most any era. I'm no great fan of the Devils (except for their cut-rate ticket prices), but it's the formula they used to win three times in less than ten years. AND... is it really all that different than the way Boston won two years ago?!

Of course, one needs the correct personnel in order to play a responsible team defensive concept. That's why I think that a sturdy zone-protecting blue-liner (whether through positioning or physicality) is more important than a play-rushing, power-play quarterback "offenseman."

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06-08-2013, 07:35 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
GREAT COMMENT

SO START FIXING IT
Okay, here's a start:

Gionta, Desharnais, Kaberle, Bouillon --> Out.
Whoever is available/can be acquired to fit the needs --> In.

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06-08-2013, 10:08 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
he looked like a 4/5 the last 10 games and was average or below average in the playoffs when it counts

points mean nothing , r u going to put ribeiro in the top 5 centers cause he put up nice points this year

u take him over krejci ?

Markov looked old , 2 steps slow after 50 games , his best days r behind him
So in your mind 10-15 games when the whole team struggles outweigh the 30+ games where he played like a top pairing guy. I'm not sure why you are bringing up Ribeiro but is he now only a 4th liner center because he had a crappy playoffs too?

There are plenty of reasons Markov looked slower than usual, he had barely played in nearly 3 years, it was a condensed schedule, was overused in many games. There's every reason to believe he'll be better next year. It's doesn't matter if his "best" days are behind him what matters is what he can give right now and for how long. He's still a very good #2/3.

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06-08-2013, 10:18 PM
  #115
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I'm not sure about that. He isn't nearly as talented as Lidstrom was, but his size just works in that Boston system. I know what you are saying, but Bourque couldn't win a cup with Boston, so I'm not sure Lidstrom would have delivered either.

Were you suggesting swapping Lidstrom with Chara would end up with the same results in Boston?

Bourque isn't behind this current squad, and played in a lower parity era. Its not a valid comparison.

I'm suggesting you have a an equally good squad with Lidstrom as Chara. Keep in mind these are the two guys that are far ahead of the pack in terms of 5 on 5 effectiveness in recent years. Not some flash in the pan like Karlsson.

The most important thing about Chara isn't that he's huge, its that's he's a superstar. He wouldn't be one without being huge maybe, but size on its own isn't the key point, being the best active shutdown defenseman is.

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06-09-2013, 12:07 PM
  #116
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Lots of work to do to be a top 4 team...


Pacioretty - Pleks - Bourque
________ - Eller - Gallagher
_______ - Galchenyuk - Prust
_____ - White - ______

<Moen?? (really miss the old warrior...what happened to him? hope he makes a comeback)
<Gionta (trade bait for trade deadline?)
<Derharnais (5'5...enough said/written...5'5-5'6 is ok if you can play like Martin St-Louis or Theo Fleury, but...trade DD when the time is right and the offer as well....... imagine DD playing on the 1st or 2nd line for Boston, Chicago, L.A....??? didn't think so).



______ - Subban
_______ - _______
Tinordi - ______


<Gorges? (would like it if he played like the pre-big-contract Gorges, I hope he can or else...get the F out with his never-ending complaining and angry/bitter interviews and then playing poor hockey).
<Emelin? (I like him, but...he really needs to improve his play with the puck...not sure about his defense 101 hockey sense)
<Diaz? (may be a regular season dman but not a playoff warrior like Markov...I hope I'm wrong)
<Beaulieu (needs at least 1 more year of AHL)
<Ellis (can't wait to see him wear the CH jersey)
<Thrower (can't wait!)



Price?
(I'm a Price fan, but...in the next two years he will have to deliver in playoffs and be a BIG HERO since he's making the BIG BUCKS).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 06-09-2013 at 12:16 PM.
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06-09-2013, 12:11 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Okay, here's a start:

Gionta, Desharnais, Kaberle, Bouillon --> Out.
Whoever is available/can be acquired to fit the needs --> In.
i dont understand all the DD hate, i love him as an offencive 3rd line center. dont give up on him yet, all we need to do is surround him with the right players.. at 3.5mil you really cant get better PPG value for $

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06-09-2013, 02:44 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Okay, here's a start:

Gionta, Desharnais, Kaberle, Bouillon --> Out.
Whoever is available/can be acquired to fit the needs --> In.
thats a good start , include Moen and Colby

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06-09-2013, 03:06 PM
  #119
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i dont understand all the DD hate, i love him as an offencive 3rd line center. dont give up on him yet, all we need to do is surround him with the right players.. at 3.5mil you really cant get better PPG value for $
he cant play third line and be effective

third liners are Stoll types , they play a physical grinding defensive game , kill penalties, etc

how can DD do that be serious

if he cant do well playing sheltered minutes and first wave of pp minutes ,there isnt a hope he can play third line

what solid team has him in on the third line , name one ?

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06-09-2013, 05:20 PM
  #120
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3-5 years seems fair. I believe Carey will be up there in that time frame, we'll have gotten a bit older and PK is back there with a potentially good D. The way the season ended changed people's minds but we need to come back to what it really is. I sincerely believe though that we won't win with guys like DD and Gio still around.

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06-09-2013, 06:07 PM
  #121
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thats a good start , include Moen and Colby
I don't mind Moen on a 4th line, and Armstrong is UFA this year I believe, so...

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06-09-2013, 06:21 PM
  #122
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Not yet. Wise drafting, upcoming players with good potential, wise trades and great development, tough to predict when we will be. But it starts with one thing....Great goaltending. But we will need more than that. So I don't know how we can actually know how much time it will take but we do seem to be in the right track.

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06-09-2013, 09:53 PM
  #123
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We'll be there when we have a real TOP 4.

When is the last time we had a real top 4? ('93? Desjardins, Schneider, Odelein, Daigneault?).



____ - Subban
_____- ______
Tinordi - _____

Beaulieu - Ellis
_______ - Thrower


<Gorges? (the real Gorges better come back or else get the F out...he was so good when he wasn't making 3.9mil/year!!).
<Emelin? he just needs to improve his defense 101 when it comes to handling the puck and positioning)
<Diaz? (good/great for regular season like Markov, but maybe not made for playoffs...maybe)

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Old
06-11-2013, 07:04 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
We'll be there when we have a real TOP 4.

When is the last time we had a real top 4? ('93? Desjardins, Schneider, Odelein, Daigneault?).



____ - Subban
_____- ______
Tinordi - _____

Beaulieu - Ellis
_______ - Thrower


<Gorges? (the real Gorges better come back or else get the F out...he was so good when he wasn't making 3.9mil/year!!).
<Emelin? he just needs to improve his defense 101 when it comes to handling the puck and positioning)
<Diaz? (good/great for regular season like Markov, but maybe not made for playoffs...maybe)
great point my friend , really other than PK and I would put Emelin as well , we have not much left , Tinordi , Nathan I think ar solid but right you cant say they asre in our top 4 until thye play a full season

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06-11-2013, 06:32 PM
  #125
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great point my friend , really other than PK and I would put Emelin as well , we have not much left , Tinordi , Nathan I think ar solid but right you cant say they asre in our top 4 until thye play a full season
Cheers my friend. We still need to wait a bit to let Tinordi develop properly and then...Beaulieu and Ellis (can't wait but don't want to rush them either!). But maybe Tinordi will be more ready (more mature) for 2014 playoffs or before that...we shall see (and then it will be Beaulieu and Ellis next...2014 or 2015 playoffs?).

And I like Emelin since he gives us that physicality (body-checking) and shot-blocking, but he (imo) needs to improve his positioning and play with the puck (Dman hockey sense 101)...needs to simplify it. He looks confused/lost/out of position sometimes or often enough (with or without the puck). Right now imo...he's a borderline #4 dman. On a good team...he's a #5-6 dman. I hope he becomes a solid/consistent #4 for us.

We urgently need another #1 dman (easier said than done!), if not...a solid #2-3 dman. PK Subban can't do it all in the playoffs. He needs major help.

KEY: we need playoff warrior dmen (not just PK Subban...and we need 'ol Gorges back)...we already have regular season dmen (Markov, Diaz). I have a feeling Tinordi will be a warrior dman for us in playoffs...we just have to give him time (since he's still so young, but so glad his development is looking good, especially for such a tall/big dman).

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