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2013 NHL Draft Talk Part V: Flyers own the 11th overall pick

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Old
06-09-2013, 09:56 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
IMO what we have is a core of six really good young players that need to be here for the long haul which includes Giroux, Couts, Voracek, Simmonds and both Schenns. The only way any one of those players should be traded is for a #1 defenseman, not a good compliment to a number one defenseman. If the opportunity arises to get a number one defenseman like Pietrangelo or someone else like that, a guy like Couts should obviously be available in a package close to what we gave for Pronger. So Couts + Coburn+ 2 Firsts.

But for players of Yandle's stature our offers should start with players like Read and Laughton. If we are trading our best players for someone who does not fill our need then it is just pointless. We would be better off going after free agents that we do not have to give up any assets for. It seems to make more sense to go after a guy like Streit and pay him 5.5 mil a year than to trade couts + picks for Yandle and pay him 5.25 mil a year. Yes Yandle or someone similar is probably better offensively than Streit but it will make our team worse overall if we are losing Couts plus picks
Good post. Cap wise, the Flyers are going to have a problem keeping all of the young forwards and upgrading the blue line. It would make sense to deal one of Couturier, B. Schenn or Laughton plus Coburn and a draft choice or two to obtain a defender of Pietrangelo's skills. Maybe an OEL or Gudbranson would work. Holmgren will go big in a deal for a blue liner. Yandle isn't a big enough target. This defender to be acquired will be the anchor back there for a decade as Timonen has been here.

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06-09-2013, 09:57 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolex View Post
Good post. Cap wise, the Flyers are going to have a problem keeping all of the young forwards and upgrading the blue line. It would make sense to deal one of Couturier, B. Schenn or Laughton plus Coburn and a draft choice or two to obtain a defender of Pietrangelo's skills. Maybe an OEL or Gudbranson would work. Holmgren will go big in a deal for a blue liner. Yandle isn't a big enough target. This defender to be acquired will be the anchor back there for a decade as Timonen has been here.
Laughton + Coburn + 1st + Cousins or something similar?

For Pietrangelo?

Count me the hell in.

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06-09-2013, 10:16 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post


This is completely ridiculous on so many levels.
Holmgren traded for Pronger who became LTIR forever.
That trade decimated the roster and we won nothing.
I could forgive that mistake if he had fixed his error.
He had a chance every season to draft a defender
to rectify the defensive shortcoming of this team.
He traded for bandaids instead of purging the infection of mediocrity.
Instead of trading assets for a #1 defenseman he gambled
on the quick fix and failed.
As good as he is finding offensive talent he is horrible on
acquiring talent necessary for a defense.

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06-09-2013, 10:27 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Holmgren traded for Pronger who became LTIR forever.
That trade decimated the roster and we won nothing.
I could forgive that mistake if he had fixed his error.
He had a chance every season to draft a defender
to rectify the defensive shortcoming of this team.
He traded for bandaids instead of purging the infection of mediocrity.
Instead of trading assets for a #1 defenseman he gambled
on the quick fix and failed.
As good as he is finding offensive talent he is horrible on
acquiring talent necessary for a defense.
He has only had 2 first round picks since the Pronger trade which were Couts and Laughton. You could argue we should have taken Hamilton, but it is hard to pass up a guy that was rated #1 for a long time and slid in the draft because he had mono. Was there a potentialy great defenseman available when we chose Laughton? I don't know only time will tell. So basically we had no first round picks, which are the only ones that are really worth much in my opinion, from 2008-2010. That means our only real option was to trade for someone since we didnt have any draft picks.

Would you trade Couts, Coburn, 2013 First, 2014 First for Pietrangelo. Because that would be very similar to that Pronger trade. The biggest difference would be in the age of the player we receive.

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06-09-2013, 10:27 PM
  #180
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I really think you have a tough time grasping how difficult it is to find a premier defender in the draft. Weber was passed over 4 times by Nashville before they picked him. Columbus over looked him 3 times. It's is extremely difficult to map out the progression of defender.

The Pronger deal was fantastic also. Lupul was oft injuried here and Sbisa hasn't developed(still time though) into a top 4 defender yet. The two first rounders are still trying to crack a full time gig IIRC. Pronger was a hall of famer who was still elite. Was until the injury. It was completely freakish as well. Nobody could foresee that injury coming. Not one that in all likely hood ends his career. Of course you expect him to be a little beat up during the year, but he brings it in the playoffs.

We should all stop mentioning the Pronger deal like it was bad. You have the opportunity to get that type of player, you make that deal 10x out of 10.

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06-09-2013, 10:40 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
He has only had 2 first round picks since the Pronger trade which were Couts and Laughton. You could argue we should have taken Hamilton, but it is hard to pass up a guy that was rated #1 for a long time and slid in the draft because he had mono. Was there a potentialy great defenseman available when we chose Laughton? I don't know only time will tell. So basically we had no first round picks, which are the only ones that are really worth much in my opinion, from 2008-2010. That means our only real option was to trade for someone since we didnt have any draft picks.

Would you trade Couts, Coburn, 2013 First, 2014 First for Pietrangelo. Because that would be very similar to that Pronger trade. The biggest difference would be in the age of the player we receive.
I would be okay with that type of trade for Pietrangelo.
I would prefer to trade Couts, Coburn, 2013 First, 2015 First, instead though.
2014 draft is in Philadelphia, would be nice to have 1st round pick.

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06-09-2013, 10:45 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
I really think you have a tough time grasping how difficult it is to find a premier defender in the draft. Weber was passed over 4 times by Nashville before they picked him. Columbus over looked him 3 times. It's is extremely difficult to map out the progression of defender.

The Pronger deal was fantastic also. Lupul was oft injuried here and Sbisa hasn't developed(still time though) into a top 4 defender yet. The two first rounders are still trying to crack a full time gig IIRC. Pronger was a hall of famer who was still elite. Was until the injury. It was completely freakish as well. Nobody could foresee that injury coming. Not one that in all likely hood ends his career. Of course you expect him to be a little beat up during the year, but he brings it in the playoffs.

We should all stop mentioning the Pronger deal like it was bad. You have the opportunity to get that type of player, you make that deal 10x out of 10.
I just have a hard time believing that the Flyers really value having an premier defender.
Since the Pronger trade, IMHO, they have not tried hard enough to draft a premier defender.
I fault them for waiting so long to replace him.

I just do not think drafting alot of defenders rounds 2-7 is going to produce a premier defender.
More likely to get a decent defender, but not a #1 guy.

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06-09-2013, 10:52 PM
  #183
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I definitely don't think it is from a lack of trying to get a defender. We just sign Weber to one of the biggest contacts in history and were willing to lose 4 consecutive first round picks. Who knows what other trades Holmgren has talked about with other Gm's. Also we have only had 1 draft since Pronger went down. Even if we had chosen a defender last draft that defender would not have been making a contribution this year and probably not even next year

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06-09-2013, 11:03 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I just have a hard time believing that the Flyers really value having an premier defender.
Since the Pronger trade, IMHO, they have not tried hard enough to draft a premier defender.
I fault them for waiting so long to replace him.

I just do not think drafting alot of defenders rounds 2-7 is going to produce a premier defender.
More likely to get a decent defender, but not a #1 guy.
They went after Suter and Weber last year.

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06-09-2013, 11:35 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
They went after Suter and Weber last year.
Why would Nashville want 4- #1 picks, instead of players.
He was their captain and a fan favorite.
Holmgren offered them nothing valuable off his roster.

If the Flyers had been willing to trade a 2 top players and
2 #1 picks, then a Weber deal might have taken place.
Holmgren tried to outbid them, he gambled and lost.
He did not try hard enough to get Weber, IMHO.

Suter really wasn't an option, he looked available but was not.
He and Parise wanted to create their own dream team (like Miami Heat) in Minnosota.

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06-09-2013, 11:40 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Why would Nashville want 4- #1 picks, instead of players.
He was their captain and a fan favorite.
Holmgren offered them nothing valuable off his roster.

If the Flyers had been willing to trade a 2 top players and
2 #1 picks, then a Weber deal might have taken place.
Holmgren tried to outbid them, he gambled and lost.
He did not try hard enough to get Weber, IMHO.

Suter really wasn't an option, he looked available but was not.
He and Parise wanted to create their own dream team (like Miami Heat) in Minnosota.
You said they don't value a premier defender. If that was the case they wouldn't have even bothered with the two.

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06-09-2013, 11:46 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
You said they don't value a premier defender. If that was the case they wouldn't have even bothered with the two.
Didn't Homer acutally offer them more money than what they signed for in Minny? I think I read that somewhere.

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06-09-2013, 11:50 PM
  #188
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If Homer doesn't value defenders, why did he draft 4 of them last year?

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06-09-2013, 11:53 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
You said they don't value a premier defender. If that was the case they wouldn't have even bothered with the two.
OK, your right. Maybe they do value a premier defender.
They just undervalue other teams #1 defenders.
Flyers must think they should not have to overpay for one.
The other GM's should just give them away for draft picks.
Or not try to compete with the Flyers for the best free agents.

Its like Holmgren is overconfident that he can just bully
the small clubs and overpay FA to fix the team.

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06-09-2013, 11:54 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by MRxBLACK View Post
Didn't Homer acutally offer them more money than what they signed for in Minny? I think I read that somewhere.
Correct, money wise the Flyers were the best offer for Suter and Parise.

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06-09-2013, 11:57 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If Homer doesn't value defenders, why did he draft 4 of them last year?
Four guys who may never play in the NHL do not constitute
valuing a premier defenseman.

If you value a premier defenseman you will either use a #1 for one,
or trade valuable assets and #1 picks for one.

Picking some guys after round #1 is a crap shoot.
Just hoping to find a decent player, not a value pick, IMHO.
You might get lucky, I like my odds better if I invest in a
better prospect.

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06-10-2013, 12:02 AM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Four guys who may never play in the NHL do not constitute
valuing a premier defenseman.

If you value a premier defenseman you will either use a #1 for one,
or trade valuable assets and #1 picks for one.

Picking some guys after round #1 is a crap shoot.
Just hoping to find a decent player, not a value pick, IMHO.
You might get lucky, I like my odds better if I invest in a
better prospect.
This makes zero sense. If the organization thinks nobody in the first round is a #1 Dman, why should they draft a Dman if there are better players around?

Your crusade for a defenseman, any defenseman, is really odd. It's to the point where it seems you're perfectly willing to draft a Dman in the first round "just because," or trade for one even if it makes the team worse. What's the point?

You're currently reflecting the organization's main issue: a lack of patience.

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06-10-2013, 12:04 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
OK, your right. Maybe they do value a premier defender.
They just undervalue other teams #1 defenders.
Flyers must think they should not have to overpay for one.
The other GM's should just give them away for draft picks.
Or not try to compete with the Flyers for the best free agents.

Its like Holmgren is overconfident that he can just bully
the small clubs and overpay FA to fix the team.
Nashville wanted Couturier, B. Schenn, Voracek+ for Weber. That's why we offer sheeted Weber.

If we would have done that deal instead of complaining about the defense it would have been the forwards.

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06-10-2013, 12:04 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Correct, money wise the Flyers were the best offer for Suter and Parise.
Parise - Giroux - Voracek
Hartnell - Schenn - Simmonds
Laughton - Couturier - Read
Rinaldo - Hall - Talbot

Suter - Coburn
Timonen - Schenn
Gustafsson - Grossmann

Mason
Thomas


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06-10-2013, 12:08 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Parise - Giroux - Voracek
Hartnell - Schenn - Simmonds
Laughton - Couturier - Read
Rinaldo - Hall - Talbot

Suter - Coburn
Timonen - Schenn
Gustafsson - Grossmann

Mason
Thomas

Honestly with the new CBA benefiting the smaller market teams it's probably better off that Homer struck out last summer. If it was under the same rules, then I would still be bitter.

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06-10-2013, 12:09 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Why would Nashville want 4- #1 picks, instead of players.
He was their captain and a fan favorite.
Holmgren offered them nothing valuable off his roster.

If the Flyers had been willing to trade a 2 top players and
2 #1 picks, then a Weber deal might have taken place.
Holmgren tried to outbid them, he gambled and lost.
He did not try hard enough to get Weber, IMHO.

Suter really wasn't an option, he looked available but was not.
He and Parise wanted to create their own dream team (like Miami Heat) in Minnosota.
First of all, you don't know what Holmgren offered off of his roster. He didn't try hard enough to get Weber? More like he decided not to decimate his current roster and again take a huge mortage on the future in a year of cap issues and lockouts and goalie problems. He probably signed Weber to the highest profile offer sheet of all time. Even if Weber came here, what if he's injured and goes onto the LTIR? Would be pretty similar to the Pronger trade... You're just not making any sense man.

Suter and Parise both took their sweet time to pick the Wild as their destination. Philly had similar money on the table, but for whatever reason and I'm sure we could find many, they chose the Wild which happened to be the team from their home state, a team that missed the playoffs since 08-09. Parise and Suter going to Minnesota is nothing like the Miami Heat.

You can't say he doesn't try. Nothing has worked out recently, is all, except for Luke Schenn and Erik Gustafsson who are getting pretty under appreciated around here. Gustafsson and Schenn have all the tools and opportunity to both be stud top-4 defenders next year, and moving forward.

---

Moving onto the draft, I don't know who I would pick if the draft goes something similar to this:

1. Jones
2. MacKinnon
3. Drouin
4. Barkov
5. Nichushkin
6. Monahan
7. Lindholm
8. Ristolainen
9. Shinkaruk
10. Nurse
11. ???

Really opens up at 11 in my opinion. Could be a defender like Zadorov, Pulock, Morrissey or even Sam Morin. Or a forward like Lazar, Horvat, Domi or a wildcard like Zykov. Out of those players, the best player in 2 or 3 years could easily be somebody like Zykov. Deep drafts make for many surprises.

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06-10-2013, 12:16 AM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Honestly with the new CBA benefiting the smaller market teams it's probably better off that Homer struck out last summer. If it was under the same rules, then I would still be bitter.
Parise (7.54) - Giroux (3.75) - Voracek (4.25)
Hartnell (4.75) - Schenn (0.90) - Simmonds (3.98)
Laughton (0.93) - Couturier (0.93) - Read (0.90)
Rinaldo (0.75) - Hall (0.75) - Talbot (1.75)

Suter (7.54) - Coburn (4.50)
Timonen (6.00) - Schenn (3.60)
Gustafsson (1.00) - Grossmann (3.50)

Mason (1.50)
Thomas (3.00)

TOTAL: 61.82
CAP: 64.30
SPACE: 02.48

It'd work for this one year, but next year we'd have to move somebody to get everyone under the cap. Hartnell would be gone along with Timonen retiring? That's 10.75m for raises for Giroux, Schenn, and Couturier. That's totally doable honestly. McGinn replaces Hartnell. Our 1st round pick from 2013 replaces or Gostisbehere joins the defense as Gus bumps up.

Tight, but totally doable.

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06-10-2013, 12:17 AM
  #198
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I'm starting to think they take Zadarov

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06-10-2013, 12:28 AM
  #199
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I'm starting to think they take Zadarov
I am okay with this

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06-10-2013, 12:29 AM
  #200
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This makes zero sense. If the organization thinks nobody in the first round is a #1 Dman, why should they draft a Dman if there are better players around?

Your crusade for a defenseman, any defenseman, is really odd. It's to the point where it seems you're perfectly willing to draft a Dman in the first round "just because," or trade for one even if it makes the team worse. What's the point?

You're currently reflecting the organization's main issue: a lack of patience.
I would have more patience if the organization, would use some common sense when drafting.
Fix goalie situation first, Defense second.Then fix the front lines.
Holmgren drafts backwards- Forwards 80% of the time.
Successful organizations build the defense first, since it takes
longer to develop defenders.
Holmer's plan is a failure because defenders cost more in trade.
He will have to trade alot from the front lines to fix the defense. Stupid.

We needed a number #1 defenseman, badly.
If there was not any worth drafting, maybe they should have traded some assets
for a #1 defenseman, instead of drafting another forward.
If they had drafted a defenseman instead of Couturier, we would be years closer to a cup.

It does not make the team worse, to trade our assets for a #1 defender.
Holmgren made it worse by never drafting for a #1 defender.
This team is not close to competing for a cup, the defense is bad.
We have tried for years to stockpile offensive talent to cover the defensive weakness
its time now to fix the defense no matter what the cost.

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