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2013 NHL Draft (draft day chat link in Post 887)

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Old
06-09-2013, 01:58 PM
  #601
PhoPhan
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Can we please talk about the draft? It's all I want to talk about.

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06-09-2013, 02:12 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
Can we please talk about the draft? It's all I want to talk about.
Maloney should trade back for JT Compher. I don't see any guarantees at 12, nor is it worth it to trade up.

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06-09-2013, 02:41 PM
  #603
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Maloney should trade back for JT Compher. I don't see any guarantees at 12, nor is it worth it to trade up.
Agree to *strongly* disagree. Although one can argue the difference in upside between Horvat/Wennberg/Lazar and Compher is marginal, there is a world of difference in offensive ability (which we really need) between Compher and Domi, who should almost certainly be there at 12. Even if Domi can't work out at center, we still end up with a Marchand-type winger except maybe with even more scoring ability.

And I won't rehash too much how Monahan and Lindholm would have challenged for a top 3 selection in previous years - at the very worst both should be great 2Cs and both can easily be the franchise 1C we've been looking for.


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06-09-2013, 03:54 PM
  #604
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Dunno. I'm really like Lazar's game. He scored 20 in 2012, 38 this year and easily score 50 next season. Not so big but strong kid, play all situations and can be 30g+30a (60 pt) NHLer, 2nd line center.

Also like Domi and Wennberg, and dont like Horvat.

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06-09-2013, 05:48 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by IPreferPi View Post
Agree to *strongly* disagree. Although one can argue the difference in upside between Horvat/Wennberg/Lazar and Compher is marginal, there is a world of difference in offensive ability (which we really need) between Compher and Domi, who should almost certainly be there at 12. Even if Domi can't work out at center, we still end up with a Marchand-type winger except maybe with even more scoring ability.

And I won't rehash too much how Monahan and Lindholm would have challenged for a top 3 selection in previous years - at the very worst both should be great 2Cs and both can easily be the franchise 1C we've been looking for.
Would you rather have Brad Marchand or a non-******* Dustin Brown and an extra pick? I'm not saying it's an easy decision, but it's certainly worth discussing.

That all said, comparisons are just comparisons, and you have to view each player on his own merits. Personally, I have Domi ranked higher than Compher, but only by a bit. If you can get Domi at 12, go for it. If you can get someone like Monahan or Lindholm, you absolutely pull the trigger. But if the choice is between Horvat at 12 and trading down, drafting Compher later and picking up a 2nd and a 5th on top of it, that's the move I'd make.

It's also not a move I expect the Coyotes to make. I suspect Maloney stays put, and if not, moving up or down one slot is more likely than moving two slots, and it's decreasingly likely to move the more slots we're talking about. With that in mind, odds are a few of the teams picking ahead of the Coyotes go off the board.

Last year, Pouliot, Lindholm and Koekkoek all went earlier than expected, leaving Forsberg and Grigorenko available outside the top ten. The year before, it was Scheifele and Brodin, and in 2010, McIlrath and Campbell going early allowed Gormley to fall to the Coyotes. I'm expecting someone similar to fall. Maybe it's Shinkaruk, maybe it's Monahan, maybe it's even Lindholm. The point is, someone we all have ranked higher than #12 will be there at 12. The fun part is whether that same player is also available at 13.

All of this is just equivocation, of course, because while I know who I want, I don't know who will turn out the best, and I have no clue who the Coyotes will end up taking. That's why draft day is my favorite day of the year.

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06-09-2013, 06:32 PM
  #606
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As good as 2003? Really? I havent followed the draft as I usually do but Im very sceptical of a claim like that.

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06-09-2013, 06:55 PM
  #607
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As good as 2003? Really? I havent followed the draft as I usually do but Im very sceptical of a claim like that.
It's a very deep draft.

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06-09-2013, 10:43 PM
  #608
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I'd like to get a consensus from everyone here...first I believe that there is a top 3 (Mac, Drouin & Jones) followed by the next 4 (Barkov, Nish, Monahan & Lindholm), no after that the real question is whether or not there is another tier?

If there isn't another tier then what you'd want to do in a deep draft like this is to trade the 12th overall and pick up 2 1st rounders...because you'll end up with possible 2 players that will perform as well as the guy you took at 12.

I do think that Shinkaruk and Domi have more offensive potential than the remaining guys, but Domi's size does give me the e'be'gee'bees and I'd rather have Shinkaruk.

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06-09-2013, 11:51 PM
  #609
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I do think that Shinkaruk and Domi have more offensive potential than the remaining guys, but Domi's size does give me the e'be'gee'bees and I'd rather have Shinkaruk.
Shinkaruk may have a size advantage over Domi, but he got low marks at the Combine for his physical development. Domi, OTOH, is pretty well built and probably can add another 5-10 pounds w/o sacrificing his excellent skating ability.

It's a tough call between the both of them: Shinkaruk probably has the higher goal scoring upside but I think there's a significantly higher bust factor with him as well (just a gut feeling) compared to Domi.

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06-10-2013, 02:00 AM
  #610
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Domi could rip Shinkaruk to shreds and eat him without breaking a sweat. One half inch of height does not cancel out twenty pounds of muscle.

I've never see. Compher play. Seems like a big game player and I like the progression. Upside looks good on paper. Seems kind of like Ryan Hartman but a year behind. I'd take Hartman if it came down to it. I'd take Hartman a lot higher than most.

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06-10-2013, 02:32 AM
  #611
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Domi could rip Shinkaruk to shreds and eat him without breaking a sweat. One half inch of height does not cancel out twenty pounds of muscle.
No amount of height out does 20lbs of muscle. I really don't understand why it's so common amongst hockey fans to have height and mass confused. For ****s sake there is a reason boxing/mma is organized by weight and not by height!


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06-10-2013, 05:50 AM
  #612
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No amount of height out does 20lbs of muscle. I really don't understand why it's so common amongst hockey fans to have height and mass confused. For ****s sake there is a reason boxing/mma is organized by weight and not by height!
See and that's what I see already, that Domi is at his peak physically, how much more muscle can you pack into that frame? On the other hand Shinkaruk, according to the combine has 'a lot' of room to grow and with the right strength and conditional coach, how much more can his physical fitness improve his game?

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06-10-2013, 06:03 AM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Sindiggy View Post
See and that's what I see already, that Domi is at his peak physically, how much more muscle can you pack into that frame? On the other hand Shinkaruk, according to the combine has 'a lot' of room to grow and with the right strength and conditional coach, how much more can his physical fitness improve his game?
If a kid can do it without the muscle, it stands to reason that the extra conditioning won't hurt. I wouldn't put much stock into measurements at this point. It should be about potential. That being said, the threshold for being an effective player in the NHL is much lower physically than it was ten years ago. No reason to worry with either example. How much muscle someone can add is easily determined by ankle/wrist measurements. If Shinkaruk has a dainty little frame, I'd pass.

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06-10-2013, 10:11 AM
  #614
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Tie sure broadened out around the shoulders and chest. Maybe Max will too.

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06-10-2013, 11:56 AM
  #615
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Tie sure broadened out around the shoulders and chest. Maybe Max will too.
I'm sure he'll continue to develop his upper body strength, but lower body strength is way more important to a player with a game like Max Domi's, especially at his size. Purely on conditioning, Domi has Shinkaruk beat now and likely in the future. Domi obviously isn't on Crosby's level, but he has the same sort of leg strength that let's him be really effective in traffic and along the boards.

That said, you're not drafting Shinkaruk looking for a body builder. He's not as scrawny as Kyle Turris and he'll probably improve his conditioning as he matures, but he plays a different sort of game, based more on speed and hockey sense. As a slipperier player, Shinkaruk can get away with being less physically developed. It certainly hasn't hurt Pat Kane.

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06-10-2013, 12:45 PM
  #616
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I'm not against Domi and would love to pick him up and add his skill set but what about taking Hanzal 2.0 in Gauthier? Probably will end up a 2nd to 3rd line tweener but the overall size and two way game he brings could make the Coyotes extremely scary down the middle. I'd take 3 lines of Boedker - Hanzal - Vrbata on our team every day of the week and I think Gauthier embodies that mindset.

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06-10-2013, 01:11 PM
  #617
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I'm not worried about the size of either Domi or Shinkaruk. Let me just throw that out there. I haven't seen Shinkaruk enough to really have a worthwhile opinion on the two. I have seen a fair bit of Domi and have been extremely impressed. So much so that I hope we draft him. If we draft Shinkaruk instead, I won't be disappointed, however. Just excited that we've added a great scoring prospect. I didn't really want to get into a Shinkaruk versus Domi argument. I only weighed in when somebody said that Shinkaruk is bigger. He's not. That's like saying Kyle Turris is "bigger" than Derek Morris because he's two inches taller. Morris has 45lbs of extra muscle.

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06-10-2013, 01:11 PM
  #618
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Gauthier's offensive upside is very questionable. This team needs top-end offense talent in the worst way and can't afford to waste a 1st on someone who will top out only as a 2nd-3rd line tweener, which we already have plenty of.

Domi or Shinkaruk should be our targets at 12 if they're on the board.

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06-10-2013, 01:14 PM
  #619
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It's a very deep draft.
2003 was deep in terms of 1st line players. Is this year different in terms of being deep but more so with 2nd line types of players?

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06-10-2013, 01:33 PM
  #620
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I'm not against Domi and would love to pick him up and add his skill set but what about taking Hanzal 2.0 in Gauthier? Probably will end up a 2nd to 3rd line tweener but the overall size and two way game he brings could make the Coyotes extremely scary down the middle. I'd take 3 lines of Boedker - Hanzal - Vrbata on our team every day of the week and I think Gauthier embodies that mindset.
Gauthier is only worth selecting if you're sold on his offensive game, which is a point of some controversy. I lean toward seeing him top out as a very good defensive third liner, so I'd pass on him at 12.

First, I don't think he'll be as good defensively as Hanzal is. Hanzal is much more physical, and even without the mean streak, he's a truly elite defensive center. Gauthier has a well developed defensive game for such a young forward, but that doesn't mean he'll turn out the same way Hanzal did. You shouldn't draft for team need anyway, but drafting a second Hanzal doesn't make sense regardless. High end defensive centers are valuable, but there are diminishing returns. Having one to shut down Anze Kopitar is one thing. Having two to shut down Kopitar and then like Mike Richards or whoever is a waste of an asset.

But you don't draft for need, especially this high, so let's look at Gauthier on his own merits. He's big and mobile, which is always a good combination, but he shows offense only in flashes, not unlike Hanzal. At times, it seems like he could be a dominant force, but most of the time he's way too conservative to make much of an impact.

If you're drafting Gauthier at 12, it's because you think his offense will turn a huge corner. With the potential of the other guys on the board at that point, I'd say you'd have to think he'll turn into a regular 50-60 point center (in addition to a very good if not elite defensive game) to justify taking him there. I see him more in the 30-40 point range, so I'd pass on him at that point.

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06-10-2013, 01:34 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
2003 was deep in terms of 1st line players. Is this year different in terms of being deep but more so with 2nd line types of players?
It's not 2003 deep, but there are a lot of first line caliber players available through the first round, and the depth cascades to 2nd line type guys as well. As hbk has already alluded to earlier in the thread, some of the guys who went in the 2nd round last year would be going in the 4th or 5th round this year. It's also worth mentioning that this draft should be even better than 2003 at the top end. With the potential of Jones, Drouin, MacKinnon and Barkov, I would guess that someone like Eric Staal (arguably the best of the '03 first rounders) would go no earlier than 5th in this year's draft, maybe even lower than Lindholm, Nichuskin, or Monahan.

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06-10-2013, 01:38 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by IPreferPi View Post
Gauthier's offensive upside is very questionable. This team needs top-end offense talent in the worst way and can't afford to waste a 1st on someone who will top out only as a 2nd-3rd line tweener, which we already have plenty of.

Domi or Shinkaruk should be our targets at 12 if they're on the board.
I don't see Gauthier as more than a 45 point guy in his carrier but I'm also looking at it from the perspective of our team identity. As of right now, we bring in centers who can win the draw and play great defense, our wingers are there to complement scoring and help with defense as well, our blue line generates the offense and if we can have some of those wingers/centers finish better and screen better then I believe we have a championship team.

Again, Domi is a great prospect but I do question is ability to play defensively. Gauthier I think will be better on the draw and in the neutral zone/back end of the ice. He has more size in both weight and height. We basically could take him and build a second version of Hanzal and Vrbata. Great defensive play and a 25-35 goal finisher. The only thing both those lines would need is someone who plays similar to Whitney did. Its a proven concept on a DT coached team.

On top of that we still have defenseman that we can move for more offensive help. Any one of Yandle, Rundblad, or Gormley could bring in that extra help.

!!!Stop reading here if you don't want to be brought into my daydreaming!!!

The thread of speculation that Yandle could go to Philly and bring back Couts would only help this case. We could very well end up with 2 1st round picks and get Gauthier and Domi. In 3 years we could look like this:

Domi - Couturier - Samuelsson
Boedker - Hanzal - Vrbata
Korpikoski - Gauthier - Doan

Doan and Vrbata could be aged out but we still have a big, dominate set of centers and 2 more wingers who can step into center. This idea is a pipe dream but I would still be ecstatic to see it happen.

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06-10-2013, 01:42 PM
  #623
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Gauthier is only worth selecting if you're sold on his offensive game, which is a point of some controversy. I lean toward seeing him top out as a very good defensive third liner, so I'd pass on him at 12.

First, I don't think he'll be as good defensively as Hanzal is. Hanzal is much more physical, and even without the mean streak, he's a truly elite defensive center. Gauthier has a well developed defensive game for such a young forward, but that doesn't mean he'll turn out the same way Hanzal did. You shouldn't draft for team need anyway, but drafting a second Hanzal doesn't make sense regardless. High end defensive centers are valuable, but there are diminishing returns. Having one to shut down Anze Kopitar is one thing. Having two to shut down Kopitar and then like Mike Richards or whoever is a waste of an asset.

But you don't draft for need, especially this high, so let's look at Gauthier on his own merits. He's big and mobile, which is always a good combination, but he shows offense only in flashes, not unlike Hanzal. At times, it seems like he could be a dominant force, but most of the time he's way too conservative to make much of an impact.

If you're drafting Gauthier at 12, it's because you think his offense will turn a huge corner. With the potential of the other guys on the board at that point, I'd say you'd have to think he'll turn into a regular 50-60 point center (in addition to a very good if not elite defensive game) to justify taking him there. I see him more in the 30-40 point range, so I'd pass on him at that point.
I agree with everything you said minus the part about where to draft him. You most certainly entertain the idea of having 2 centers that can shut down both Kopitar and Richards. Having 2 dominate defensive, 40pt centers on a team in the west is great, especially if they have great chemistry with a finisher like Vrbata.


This isn't to say you don't want skill players on you're team, but they do tend to cost more and we are a budget team, one who hasn't had a true #1 center in over a decade. We may stay a budget team for the next decade too and we have a system going that's working. I wont be disappointed with Domi by any stretch but I do see Gauthier as being a fantastic asset to bring into the organization that fits the identity of this team.

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06-10-2013, 02:02 PM
  #624
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Two things.

First, you keep talking about a second Hanzal and Vrbata combination, but where are you getting another scorer as reliable as Vrbata? The best way to do it is to draft them, but you're advocating spending the best asset toward that goal on Gauthier.

Second, don't draft for present day need. Ever. Perhaps Gauthier fits the team identity better today than Max Domi, which is at least arguable. But both are at least a year or two away, and we don't even know if Tippett will be here a month from now. A new coach would change that dynamic dramatically. By the same token, any roster change could alter team needs. Currently, offensive defensemen are a strength, but let's say Maloney trades Yandle for Couturier+ and then Rundblad proves unable to adjust to the North American game. All of a sudden, you have two stud defensive centers and need more puck-moving defensemen. Gauthier then becomes, at best, your third line center, which is a low ceiling for a top pick.

Instead, just draft the best player available. Let's say you drafted Domi but five years from now, even though Domi is the better player, Gauthier fits your needs more. You can just trade Domi for Gauthier (or someone similar) at that point. But trying to draft today based on how you think the team will look in the future is always a fool's errand.

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06-10-2013, 02:05 PM
  #625
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Gauthier's offense is generally criticized way too much. He scored 60 points in his first 62 games at the CHL level. Given time to develop, I think the sky is the limit.

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