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Habs' off-season moves (all trades, proposals & free agent talk here) V

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Old
06-10-2013, 03:58 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
No matter how much people on the internet think these owners have endless money supplies this ownership group is not going to burn 24M for one draft pick or player. It would be a bad business decision.
Molson forked over hundreds of millions in a long term investment, hrs can fork over another 20 million.

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06-10-2013, 04:04 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Molson forked over hundreds of millions in a long term investment, hrs can fork over another 20 million.
As I have pointed out Molson does not own the team. He is part of a family who is part of a 7 entity group who shares ownership. As president he is accountable to them. They aren't going to approve 22M to help the New York Islanders.

Won't ever happen.


Last edited by Agnostic: 06-10-2013 at 04:11 AM.
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06-10-2013, 04:10 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
As I have pointed out Molson does not own the team. He is part of a family who is part of a 7 entity group who shares ownership. As president he is accountable to them.

Won't ever happen.
Though I'm not entirely sold that it will NEVER happen, it makes little to no sense financially or if you look at it from a business perspective. I'd say there's about a two percent chance it happens. Crazier things have gone on in the NHL.

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06-10-2013, 04:22 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Molson forked over hundreds of millions in a long term investment, hrs can fork over another 20 million.
he can but he wont. Besides, that would be stupid.

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06-10-2013, 04:23 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
Though I'm not entirely sold that it will NEVER happen, it makes little to no sense financially or if you look at it from a business perspective. I'd say there's about a two percent chance it happens. Crazier things have gone on in the NHL.
Ok, let's agree on "never say never" but that the chances are remote.

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06-10-2013, 04:35 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Ok, let's agree on "never say never" but that the chances are remote.
Agreed.

The only way I could see it happening is if we were getting a player back that would increase revenue and sales (Tavares) to the point that it makes the buyout negligible. Or, if a team has an equally expensive contact they need to get rid of and would be paying it anyway. Likely it isn't us. Unless it is something like 7 first round picks, I'm not sure it's worth it.

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06-10-2013, 04:53 AM
  #82
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They will make the investment if it makes sense to do so.

It does not rake seven first rounders to justify 22 million.

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06-10-2013, 05:00 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
They will make the investment if it makes sense to do so.

It does not rake seven first rounders to justify 22 million.
That's what's being argued here. What makes sense to you?

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06-10-2013, 05:19 AM
  #84
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The thought of the Habs trading for and buying out Dipietro for $22M to get some prospects, picks and players seems pretty ridiculous to me.

I get it in theory but its never going to happen. And by never, I mean never.

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06-10-2013, 05:42 AM
  #85
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Could Bettman say that this circumvent the SCap rules?

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06-10-2013, 05:58 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
That's what's being argued here. What makes sense to you?
A pair of 1st rounders, but it is hard to see the islanders do it.

And that is the problem. Not the fact no NHL team would do it, i remember the pre-cap days when teams would spend untold millions for small advantages. The problem is probably getting the Islanders to agree.

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06-10-2013, 06:11 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
A pair of 1st rounders, but it is hard to see the islanders do it.

And that is the problem. Not the fact no NHL team would do it, i remember the pre-cap days when teams would spend untold millions for small advantages. The problem is probably getting the Islanders to agree.
I wouldn't agree, how do two first rounders get even close to compensating for the loss of 22mil? It's very unlikely that those two prospects would be able to generate that sort of money as players and it could be 4-5 years before they benefit the roster enough to provide playoff revenue or something of the sort and even that's not guaranteed. It's a business and it's an investment, it isn't about making the team better and improving the prospect pool. Unless there are tangible benefits or a near guarantee of a performance increase (7 first round picks) over several years, it just doesn't make sense. However, we don't have access to economic information so we are all just guessing.

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06-10-2013, 06:27 AM
  #88
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On the Dipietro thing, don't see a fit in the scenarios we are talking about but I will say this. If there is a management group that is dumb enough to sell out assets to rid themselves of a previous mistake it's the Islanders, and if there is a team that has more money than brains it's the Leafs. These seem like the 2 teams that can take something ridiculous in the hypothetical world and make it into a story that makes everyone go WTF?

Habs large ownership group won't agree on this type of move.

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06-10-2013, 07:51 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draft View Post
I wouldn't agree, how do two first rounders get even close to compensating for the loss of 22mil? It's very unlikely that those two prospects would be able to generate that sort of money as players and it could be 4-5 years before they benefit the roster enough to provide playoff revenue or something of the sort and even that's not guaranteed. It's a business and it's an investment, it isn't about making the team better and improving the prospect pool. Unless there are tangible benefits or a near guarantee of a performance increase (7 first round picks) over several years, it just doesn't make sense. However, we don't have access to economic information so we are all just guessing.
The thing is. Nobody will trade for DiPietro without sending money back the other way.

I assume, a deal involving the Canadiens would look like :

Rick DiPietro + Nino Niederreiter + 15th OV
vs
Thomas Kaberle + Travis Moen + 32nd OV

You send : 8.5M$ (Kaberle) and 7,4M$ (Moen), for a total of : 15.9M$.
Dipietro's money minus 15,9M$ and you talk about 6M$.

While adding a type of prospect that we need (Niederreiter is a powerforward ready to stepup in the NHL), we correct a mistake that we made (moen), have 2 first rounds in a deep draft and free-up space and a roster spot on our salary cap for next year.

Islanders does this, because they save money but also add a full time player on their roster (moen), and move a player that create them problems and asked for a trade last year (niederreiter).


Pacioretty - DD - Niederreiter
Bourque - Plekanec - Gallagher
Galchenyuk - Eller - Prust


Last edited by SnapVirus: 06-10-2013 at 07:57 AM.
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06-10-2013, 07:56 AM
  #90
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So i've been reading last few pages of the previous thread and the first 3.5 of this one.

1) Trading for Letang seems absolutely ridiculous...for Pittsburgh. Why would they give up their Norris-finalist (possibly winning) defenseman because the team might be "housecleaning" or fire sale or whatever. Their playoff run was good, they just got the wrong players (hahahaha Boston just gave Iginla payback for going with PIT and not them mwahahahahaha lol).

2) Pleks for Stewart + 2nd round 2013. I don't think we need to do this trade. With the 2012 draft being a homerun so i've heard, we'll have wingers coming up in the next 3-4 years that will be able to fill this role. Even with the Letang trade, I don't see how this trade will make us SC contenders now and should wait for the time to come where we are contenders (when the 2012 draft starts really developing...)

3) I don't understand how some teams and their owners would use amnesty buyouts possibly (PHI for Bryz as an example) and we would not. However, i don't feel the need to spend 22.5 million for draft picks and prospects. Not the best in terms of investment, in which you aren't even close to guaranteed a solid player when their development is over.

4) Before buyouts, this UFA crop is by far one of the worst and we're going to grossly overspend to get players (now every year teams will overspend, but this year will be by an absurd amount [Clarkson at 5+ mil/year? Pass.]) The way you build your SC Contending team is through the draft (check, and most likely this year as well, check) and through good trading (especially at the deadline). UFAs are not the way to go unless you sign a piece that you are for sure missing (Prust) that would improve the roster by leaps and bounds. Next UFA season will be much better and should hold off on spending this summer when I don't think we're even close to SC Contenders. We'll have more cap room (Kaberle [either this year via buyout or contract ending next season], Markov, Gionta, Bouillon, Emelin, Diaz, Eller, Subban will all have their contracts ending after the 2013-14 season) for 2014 summer and with by the time July 1, 2014 rolls around, a lot more and better UFAs to dangle some money in front of (if we need to).

5) If Letang trade could happen, by next summer we would not be able to re-sign Markov (which I might be okay with depending on how he plays come next year, a full season). However for next year, our top 4 would be ridiculous.

IMO, i would only offer Diaz, one of our 2nd round picks this year and maybe another 2nd round pick next year for Letang.

Re-sign Armstrong (), White, Dumont, Weber, Trade Diaz, 2013 2nd, 2014 2nd, for Letang, our opening day roster would be:

Rene Bourque ($3.333m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Max Pacioretty ($4.500m) / David Desharnais ($3.500m) / Brendan Gallagher ($0.870m)
Alex Galchenyuk ($3.225m) / Lars Eller ($1.325m) / Brandon Prust ($2.500m)
Travis Moen ($1.850m) / Ryan White ($0.725m) / Colby Armstrong ($1.000m)
Gabriel Dumont ($0.625m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / P.K. Subban ($2.875m)
Josh Gorges ($3.900m) / Kris Letang ($3.500m)
Francis Bouillon ($1.500m) / Jarred Tinordi ($1.083m)
Alexei Emelin ($2.000m) / Yannick Weber ($0.850m)
GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($6.500m)
Peter Budaj ($1.400m)
OTHER
Buyout: Tomas Kaberle ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,960,833; BONUSES: $2,697,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $4,186,667

Emelin comes back into the fold, our lineup will be:

Bourque-Plekanec-Gionta
Pacioretty-DD-Gallagher
Galchenyuk-Eller-Prust
Moen-White-Armstrong

Markov-Subban
Emelin-Letang
Gorges-Tinordi

Price-Budaj

Dumont-Bouillon-Weber

Thoughts?

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06-10-2013, 08:02 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
The thing is. Nobody will trade for DiPietro without sending money back the other way.

I assume, a deal involving the Canadiens would look like :

Rick DiPietro + Nino Niederreiter + 15th OV
vs
Thomas Kaberle + Travis Moen + 32nd OV

You send : 8.5M$ (Kaberle) and 7,4M$ (Moen), for a total of : 15.9M$.
Dipietro's money minus 15,9M$ and you talk about 6M$.

While adding a type of prospect that we need (Niederreiter is a powerforward ready to stepup in the NHL), we correct a mistake that we made (moen), have 2 first rounds in a deep draft and free-up space and a roster spot on our salary cap for next year.

Islanders does this, because they save money but also add a full time player on their roster (moen), and move a player that create them problems and asked for a trade last year (niederreiter).


Pacioretty - DD - Niederreiter
Bourque - Plekanec - Gallagher
Galchenyuk - Eller - Prust
I see your point but Kaberle and Moen have 1 and 3 years left respectively on their deals, you've calculated based on 2 and 4 years.

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06-10-2013, 08:24 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
The thing is. Nobody will trade for DiPietro without sending money back the other way.

I assume, a deal involving the Canadiens would look like :

Rick DiPietro + Nino Niederreiter + 15th OV
vs
Thomas Kaberle + Travis Moen + 32nd OV

You send : 8.5M$ (Kaberle) and 7,4M$ (Moen), for a total of : 15.9M$.
Dipietro's money minus 15,9M$ and you talk about 6M$.

While adding a type of prospect that we need (Niederreiter is a powerforward ready to stepup in the NHL), we correct a mistake that we made (moen), have 2 first rounds in a deep draft and free-up space and a roster spot on our salary cap for next year.

Islanders does this, because they save money but also add a full time player on their roster (moen), and move a player that create them problems and asked for a trade last year (niederreiter).


Pacioretty - DD - Niederreiter
Bourque - Plekanec - Gallagher
Galchenyuk - Eller - Prust
1. Most reasonable suggestion so far.
2. As Agnostic said, it's calculated incorrectly.
3. I'm not quite sure Nino would be able to step in and take top line minutes. Would love to have him here though. Good leader and a clutch performer IIRC.
4. Where's Gio?

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06-10-2013, 08:34 AM
  #93
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agreed but if it help us make the play offs on a continual bases and add 2 front line players can do that what is that worth? At least a couple of home games Molson could get his money back in a hurry.

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06-10-2013, 08:56 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
So i've been reading last few pages of the previous thread and the first 3.5 of this one.

1) Trading for Letang seems absolutely ridiculous...for Pittsburgh. Why would they give up their Norris-finalist (possibly winning) defenseman because the team might be "housecleaning" or fire sale or whatever. Their playoff run was good, they just got the wrong players (hahahaha Boston just gave Iginla payback for going with PIT and not them mwahahahahaha lol).

2) Pleks for Stewart + 2nd round 2013. I don't think we need to do this trade. With the 2012 draft being a homerun so i've heard, we'll have wingers coming up in the next 3-4 years that will be able to fill this role. Even with the Letang trade, I don't see how this trade will make us SC contenders now and should wait for the time to come where we are contenders (when the 2012 draft starts really developing...)

3) I don't understand how some teams and their owners would use amnesty buyouts possibly (PHI for Bryz as an example) and we would not. However, i don't feel the need to spend 22.5 million for draft picks and prospects. Not the best in terms of investment, in which you aren't even close to guaranteed a solid player when their development is over.

4) Before buyouts, this UFA crop is by far one of the worst and we're going to grossly overspend to get players (now every year teams will overspend, but this year will be by an absurd amount [Clarkson at 5+ mil/year? Pass.]) The way you build your SC Contending team is through the draft (check, and most likely this year as well, check) and through good trading (especially at the deadline). UFAs are not the way to go unless you sign a piece that you are for sure missing (Prust) that would improve the roster by leaps and bounds. Next UFA season will be much better and should hold off on spending this summer when I don't think we're even close to SC Contenders. We'll have more cap room (Kaberle [either this year via buyout or contract ending next season], Markov, Gionta, Bouillon, Emelin, Diaz, Eller, Subban will all have their contracts ending after the 2013-14 season) for 2014 summer and with by the time July 1, 2014 rolls around, a lot more and better UFAs to dangle some money in front of (if we need to).

5) If Letang trade could happen, by next summer we would not be able to re-sign Markov (which I might be okay with depending on how he plays come next year, a full season). However for next year, our top 4 would be ridiculous.

IMO, i would only offer Diaz, one of our 2nd round picks this year and maybe another 2nd round pick next year for Letang.

Re-sign Armstrong (), White, Dumont, Weber, Trade Diaz, 2013 2nd, 2014 2nd, for Letang, our opening day roster would be:

Rene Bourque ($3.333m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Max Pacioretty ($4.500m) / David Desharnais ($3.500m) / Brendan Gallagher ($0.870m)
Alex Galchenyuk ($3.225m) / Lars Eller ($1.325m) / Brandon Prust ($2.500m)
Travis Moen ($1.850m) / Ryan White ($0.725m) / Colby Armstrong ($1.000m)
Gabriel Dumont ($0.625m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / P.K. Subban ($2.875m)
Josh Gorges ($3.900m) / Kris Letang ($3.500m)
Francis Bouillon ($1.500m) / Jarred Tinordi ($1.083m)
Alexei Emelin ($2.000m) / Yannick Weber ($0.850m)
GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($6.500m)
Peter Budaj ($1.400m)
OTHER
Buyout: Tomas Kaberle ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,960,833; BONUSES: $2,697,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $4,186,667

Emelin comes back into the fold, our lineup will be:

Bourque-Plekanec-Gionta
Pacioretty-DD-Gallagher
Galchenyuk-Eller-Prust
Moen-White-Armstrong

Markov-Subban
Emelin-Letang
Gorges-Tinordi

Price-Budaj

Dumont-Bouillon-Weber

Thoughts?
So sameforward group as last year. Still the smallest top 6 in the league. habs faded badly down the stretch. If MB doesent add/upgrade this line up you have wont make the playoffs IMO. Just way to small. And why is DD still the second line centre?


Last edited by Zorba: 06-10-2013 at 09:01 AM.
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06-10-2013, 09:13 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
The thing is. Nobody will trade for DiPietro without sending money back the other way.

I assume, a deal involving the Canadiens would look like :

Rick DiPietro + Nino Niederreiter + 15th OV
vs
Thomas Kaberle + Travis Moen + 32nd OV

You send : 8.5M$ (Kaberle) and 7,4M$ (Moen), for a total of : 15.9M$.
Dipietro's money minus 15,9M$ and you talk about 6M$.


While adding a type of prospect that we need (Niederreiter is a powerforward ready to stepup in the NHL), we correct a mistake that we made (moen), have 2 first rounds in a deep draft and free-up space and a roster spot on our salary cap for next year.

Islanders does this, because they save money but also add a full time player on their roster (moen), and move a player that create them problems and asked for a trade last year (niederreiter).


Pacioretty - DD - Niederreiter
Bourque - Plekanec - Gallagher
Galchenyuk - Eller - Prust
It's TOMAS Kaberle , Moen, and the 34th Overall Pick.

Also, your math is wrong. 4.25 mil left for Kaberle, 4.5 mil left for Moen (3 years at 1.5 mil/year) so that's 8.75 million. Minus that from DiPietro's total salary left on contract and that's what you're spending on buying out DiPi.

Also, since when is Neiderreiter a "power forward"?

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06-10-2013, 09:16 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
So sameforward group as last year. Still the smallest top 6 in the league. habs faded badly down the stretch. If MB doesent add/upgrade this line up you have wont make the playoffs IMO. Just way to small. And why is DD still the second line centre?
Unfortunately yes. Let's see how our forward "depth" does in an 82-game season with injuries (cuz we all know the Habs will have injuries [cue the "We're too small" posts"]).

I don't think so. We could make the playoffs next year with our lineup, we probably won't.

DD is still the second line centre because he was last year and I'm guessing Lars/Chucky won't be given his minutes. That's the only reason. But I agree, DD needs to go...eventually (how soon though is another ?).

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06-10-2013, 09:41 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
I wouldn't agree, how do two first rounders get even close to compensating for the loss of 22mil? It's very unlikely that those two prospects would be able to generate that sort of money as players and it could be 4-5 years before they benefit the roster enough to provide playoff revenue or something of the sort and even that's not guaranteed. It's a business and it's an investment, it isn't about making the team better and improving the prospect pool. Unless there are tangible benefits or a near guarantee of a performance increase (7 first round picks) over several years, it just doesn't make sense. However, we don't have access to economic information so we are all just guessing.
This same ownership group just spent 600 million overall, again, it is called a high risk, high reward investment.

The dipietro contract with a first? A low risk and low reward investment.

We have access to all the econ information necessary. We know:
1) the cost of dipietro.
2) the expected value of a playoff round (7 million)
3) the cost of borrowing: 5% or so.
4) the average historical performance of draft picks.


Last edited by DAChampion: 06-10-2013 at 10:03 AM.
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06-10-2013, 09:42 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
It's TOMAS Kaberle , Moen, and the 34th Overall Pick.

Also, your math is wrong. 4.25 mil left for Kaberle, 4.5 mil left for Moen (3 years at 1.5 mil/year) so that's 8.75 million. Minus that from DiPietro's total salary left on contract and that's what you're spending on buying out DiPi.

Also, since when is Neiderreiter a "power forward"?
I love the idea of making this deal with the Isles. With the salary cap I am sure Molson's make alot of money off the business on a yearly basis. This 15 or so million would be a drop in the bucket. Get Niño and the 15th pick if it is possible. Send Gio in the deal if they want him.

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06-10-2013, 09:49 AM
  #99
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if anything I feel the big contracts like TB with lecavalier and NYI with Dipietro can always wait till next year where theres even less money to swallow in the buyout.

Unless one of them REALLY needs to get under the cap.

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06-10-2013, 09:50 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by JPGoHabsGo View Post
if anything I feel the big contracts like TB with lecavalier and NYI with Dipietro can always wait till next year where theres even less money to swallow in the buyout.

Unless one of them REALLY needs to get under the cap.
Not sure if the amnesty buyouts are available next year. Is that right or am I dreaming?

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