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2013 NHL Draft Talk Part V: Flyers own the 11th overall pick

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Old
06-10-2013, 12:31 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Rolex View Post
Good post. Cap wise, the Flyers are going to have a problem keeping all of the young forwards and upgrading the blue line. It would make sense to deal one of Couturier, B. Schenn or Laughton plus Coburn and a draft choice or two to obtain a defender of Pietrangelo's skills. Maybe an OEL or Gudbranson would work. Holmgren will go big in a deal for a blue liner. Yandle isn't a big enough target. This defender to be acquired will be the anchor back there for a decade as Timonen has been here.
No offense, but this is fantasy land stuff.

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06-10-2013, 12:38 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Parise (7.54) - Giroux (3.75) - Voracek (4.25)
Hartnell (4.75) - Schenn (0.90) - Simmonds (3.98)
Laughton (0.93) - Couturier (0.93) - Read (0.90)
Rinaldo (0.75) - Hall (0.75) - Talbot (1.75)

Suter (7.54) - Coburn (4.50)
Timonen (6.00) - Schenn (3.60)
Gustafsson (1.00) - Grossmann (3.50)

Mason (1.50)
Thomas (3.00)

TOTAL: 61.82
CAP: 64.30
SPACE: 02.48

It'd work for this one year, but next year we'd have to move somebody to get everyone under the cap. Hartnell would be gone along with Timonen retiring? That's 10.75m for raises for Giroux, Schenn, and Couturier. That's totally doable honestly. McGinn replaces Hartnell. Our 1st round pick from 2013 replaces or Gostisbehere joins the defense as Gus bumps up.

Tight, but totally doable.
Maybe someone with more knowledge on the situation can explain it better but Parise, Suter, & Weber's deals are going to hurt Minnesota and Nashville in the long run because they're all front loaded deals.

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06-10-2013, 12:39 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Nashville wanted Couturier, B. Schenn, Voracek+ for Weber. That's why we offer sheeted Weber.

If we would have done that deal instead of complaining about the defense it would have been the forwards.
LOL.
If we had made that deal I would be fine with drafting forwards.
We would need all we could get to fill in the gaps.

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06-10-2013, 12:47 AM
  #204
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LOL.
If we had made that deal I would be fine with drafting forwards.
We would need all we could get to fill in the gaps.
By the time we would have builded up a forward core again, Weber would have been over 32+ at the earliest.

It's pretty clear you're so gong-ho with defensemen that you would give up anything to get one.


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06-10-2013, 08:20 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
By the time we would have builded up a forward core again, Weber would have been over 32+ at the earliest.

It's pretty clear you're so gong-ho with defensemen that you would give up anything to get one.
Yea there is no way I'd do that deal even if Brayden and couts regress this year.

Looking at our line up I'd rather not trade for anyone other than MAYBE bernier. When healthy our d looks pretty good actually and our offense without sophomore slumps looks great. Mason played very well and I think could be a starter here. I really don't think we need to go crazy and add a big D player. I think that happens though the draft this year and Luke continuing his great play

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06-10-2013, 08:25 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I would have more patience if the organization, would use some common sense when drafting.
Fix goalie situation first, Defense second.Then fix the front lines.
Holmgren drafts backwards- Forwards 80% of the time.
Successful organizations build the defense first, since it takes
longer to develop defenders.
Holmer's plan is a failure because defenders cost more in trade.
He will have to trade alot from the front lines to fix the defense. Stupid.

We needed a number #1 defenseman, badly.
If there was not any worth drafting, maybe they should have traded some assets
for a #1 defenseman, instead of drafting another forward.
If they had drafted a defenseman instead of Couturier, we would be years closer to a cup.

It does not make the team worse, to trade our assets for a #1 defender.
Holmgren made it worse by never drafting for a #1 defender.
This team is not close to competing for a cup, the defense is bad.
We have tried for years to stockpile offensive talent to cover the defensive weakness
its time now to fix the defense no matter what the cost.
Nashville is probably the closest example to the way you are talking about building your team. Drafting defenseman all over the place and having a great goalie. But their whole forward core is complete garbage. I can't even say there is more than one forward from their team that I would want on the Flyers. Maybe Hornqvist or Forsberg? Even then I wouldn't be that excited to get them. You cannot win a cup with just great defense and great goaltending. Just like you can't win one if you just have great forwards.

IMO the way to build a team is getting 2 top notch centers and 2 top notch defenseman. Then I would go after a goalie that can make the saves he is supposed to. After you have those, then you start adding depth to the roster. I rate the importance of first line centers and first pairing defenseman equally for the most part. As a team you cannot reach in the draft for a defender just because it is a need. If the talent isn't there then you have to draft something different. This is just the best way I see to build a team, but things don't ever fall in line like that so you end up chasing an assets that you don't have. There are very few teams rosters that look significantly better than ours. And to be honest they are in the cup or conference finals this year

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06-10-2013, 08:39 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Nashville is probably the closest example to the way you are talking about building your team. Drafting defenseman all over the place and having a great goalie. But their whole forward core is complete garbage. I can't even say there is more than one forward from their team that I would want on the Flyers. Maybe Hornqvist or Forsberg? Even then I wouldn't be that excited to get them. You cannot win a cup with just great defense and great goaltending. Just like you can't win one if you just have great forwards.

IMO the way to build a team is getting 2 top notch centers and 2 top notch defenseman. Then I would go after a goalie that can make the saves he is supposed to. After you have those, then you start adding depth to the roster. I rate the importance of first line centers and first pairing defenseman equally for the most part. As a team you cannot reach in the draft for a defender just because it is a need. If the talent isn't there then you have to draft something different. This is just the best way I see to build a team, but things don't ever fall in line like that so you end up chasing an assets that you don't have. There are very few teams rosters that look significantly better than ours. And to be honest they are in the cup or conference finals this year
Colin Wilson is a stud. Forsberg will be good too, add in a player like Barkov this summer and Nashville is already a lot better than they were last year.

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06-10-2013, 08:44 AM
  #208
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Colin Wilson is a stud. Forsberg will be good too, add in a player like Barkov this summer and Nashville is already a lot better than they were last year.
I forgot about wilson. Those three together will be a good core together. But over the last 4 years or so, Nashvilles offense has been holding them back from being a true cup contender. When you think trading a first for Gaustad is going to improve your offense, you have a problem IMO

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06-10-2013, 08:57 AM
  #209
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I doubt Nashville thought that.

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06-10-2013, 09:13 AM
  #210
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I doubt Nashville thought that.
They probably did think that. But if you think a guy that has never even scored 15 goals in a season and is in his late 20's or early 30's is going to improve your offense, then your offense must be just terrible

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06-10-2013, 10:38 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
They probably did think that. But if you think a guy that has never even scored 15 goals in a season and is in his late 20's or early 30's is going to improve your offense, then your offense must be just terrible
Gaustad was brought in because of his defense and faceoffs something you need in the playoffs. They just paid a premium for him at the deadline.

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06-10-2013, 10:43 AM
  #212
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I really think couts for Shattenkirk needs to be explored.

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06-10-2013, 11:07 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
I really think couts for Shattenkirk needs to be explored.
I'd prefer that over Couts for Yandle.

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06-10-2013, 11:49 AM
  #214
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I'd prefer that over Couts for Yandle.
Me too. I really want no part of yandle, and it's more simple of a rationale than you may think.

Couturier: 20 years old
Shattenkirk: 24 years old
Yandle: 26 years old

I understand that yandle isn't really old... But he's 6 years older than couturier and will be effective for a shorter time than couturier will be. Shattenkirk is only a little more than 2 years younger than yandle, but that's still better and he still fits into our young core better than yandle does. Moreover, Shattenkirk still has room to grow and improve. Yandle is likely what he'll always be: an offensive defenseman with average at best defensive capabilities and a reputation for coughing up the puck under pressure... Sound farmiliar? I'll give you a hint; my girlfriend has stronger wrists than him

I'm not all gung ho "lets trade couturier! Yay ilpatience!". I actually love couturier... But there's no sense in keeping these players we all want to keep because of their potential while we ignore the issues keeping this team from competing. I understand the rational that we should be more patient with young players, but if we keep all of Giroux Schenn couturier and Laughton, 1, they're all not going to reach their potential because there's only so much ice time for centers (I even have my doubts about couturier reaching his potential getting 3rd line minutes, he needs to at least be getting 2nd line duty. Something I don't think he'll get here) and 2, it's absolute moot if we aren't addressing the complete incompetence on the back end. We could have 4 of the best young centers in the world and it makes absolutely no difference if your defense is in the shape as ours is long term.

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06-10-2013, 11:52 AM
  #215
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I'm sure Holmgren is asking about every defender we could have interest in. I guess it all depends on the asking price, quality of player they age, age, and money. Yandle or Shattenkirk are my two best reasonable - but likely still expensive - options, Shattenkirk is a righty but I think Yandle is better as a PMD.

Anybody think Briere could be traded instead of amenstied? To a team with an internal cap that might want to save some real dollars with a need for a scoring touch? Phoenix could be that place... although I doubt Danny would waive. Likely going to be amnestied.

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06-10-2013, 11:57 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Me too. I really want no part of yandle, and it's more simple of a rationale than you may think.

Couturier: 20 years old
Shattenkirk: 24 years old
Yandle: 26 years old

I understand that yandle isn't really old... But he's 6 years older than couturier and will be effective for a shorter time than couturier will be. Shattenkirk is only a little more than 2 years younger than yandle, but that's still better and he still fits into our young core better than yandle does. Moreover, Shattenkirk still has room to grow and improve. Yandle is likely what he'll always be: an offensive defenseman with average at best defensive capabilities and a reputation for coughing up the puck under pressure... Sound farmiliar? I'll give you a hint; my girlfriend has stronger wrists than him

I'm not all gung ho "lets trade couturier! Yay ilpatience!". I actually love couturier... But there's no sense in keeping these players we all want to keep because of their potential while we ignore the issues keeping this team from competing. I understand the rational that we should be more patient with young players, but if we keep all of Giroux Schenn couturier and Laughton, 1, they're all not going to reach their potential because there's only so much ice time for centers (I even have my doubts about couturier reaching his potential getting 3rd line minutes, he needs to at least be getting 2nd line duty. Something I don't think he'll get here) and 2, it's absolute moot if we aren't addressing the complete incompetence on the back end. We could have 4 of the best young centers in the world and it makes absolutely no difference if your defense is in the shape as ours is long term.
This is I think the most relevant part of your post. People will simply say, "get a #1 defender from the draft and keep all the centers!" As if that is a simple thing to do. It is more than likely that the Flyers will NOT draft a #1 defender in the time it takes all these guys to reach their peaks. Drafting a #1 defender is not easy. It is not likely. Risto/Zadorov/Nurse/etc might have #1 potential. MIGHT. But that doesn't mean they will reach it, and it doesn't mean that even if they reach it that it will be any time soon. If they don't, then we wait until next year and see if someone in the 10-25 range will turn out to be the #1 defender. And so forth and so on. Eventually, the Flyers I imagine will have that #1 defender. But when will it be? Two years? Five? Ten?

The odds really are, whether you care to admit it or not(not you, OIB, but you meaning people who want to hang on to Coots at all costs), that by the time Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, and Laughton (and the rest of the young core) are at their best, the Flyers will still not have the #1 defender they are looking for. That is not because Homer is a bad GM or because the Flyers can't draft defensemen or don't have patience or whatever your rationale is. It is because a true #1 defenseman is rare. There are probably 10 max in the entire league and including guys that have that true #1 defender potential who aren't in the league yet. Is it really a better idea to hold on Couturier and hope that he reaches his potential rather than to take a shot at a possible #1 defender and give up Couturier's potential? I'm not so sure it is. Of course, like you said, I wouldn't trade him just to trade him, but I would absolutely trade him for a defender like Shattenkirk, and probably would for Yandle too, depending on what else is invovled.

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06-10-2013, 11:57 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
Anybody think Briere could be traded instead of amenstied? To a team with an internal cap that might want to save some real dollars with a need for a scoring touch? Phoenix could be that place... although I doubt Danny would waive. Likely going to be amnestied.
No. It would cost him money. If amnestied, he gets full contract value of $5M (spread out over 4 years) + whatever he signs for as a UFA. He would be dumb to agree to a trade.

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06-10-2013, 12:00 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
Anybody think Briere could be traded instead of amenstied? To a team with an internal cap that might want to save some real dollars with a need for a scoring touch? Phoenix could be that place... although I doubt Danny would waive. Likely going to be amnestied.
I think it is possible, but the return wouldn't be too much. The time for him to go was trade deadline, and could happen this year at the deadline if he is not bought out. now I imagine at best the Flyers would get a mid round pick for him because teams know that he is on his way out.

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06-10-2013, 12:02 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Me too. I really want no part of yandle, and it's more simple of a rationale than you may think.

Couturier: 20 years old
Shattenkirk: 24 years old
Yandle: 26 years old

I understand that yandle isn't really old... But he's 6 years older than couturier and will be effective for a shorter time than couturier will be. Shattenkirk is only a little more than 2 years younger than yandle, but that's still better and he still fits into our young core better than yandle does. Moreover, Shattenkirk still has room to grow and improve. Yandle is likely what he'll always be: an offensive defenseman with average at best defensive capabilities and a reputation for coughing up the puck under pressure... Sound farmiliar? I'll give you a hint; my girlfriend has stronger wrists than him

I'm not all gung ho "lets trade couturier! Yay ilpatience!". I actually love couturier... But there's no sense in keeping these players we all want to keep because of their potential while we ignore the issues keeping this team from competing. I understand the rational that we should be more patient with young players, but if we keep all of Giroux Schenn couturier and Laughton, 1, they're all not going to reach their potential because there's only so much ice time for centers (I even have my doubts about couturier reaching his potential getting 3rd line minutes, he needs to at least be getting 2nd line duty. Something I don't think he'll get here) and 2, it's absolute moot if we aren't addressing the complete incompetence on the back end. We could have 4 of the best young centers in the world and it makes absolutely no difference if your defense is in the shape as ours is long term.
I like Yandle, but I love Couts. No to trading him for ANYONE.

If we could get Yandle with another package, it might be worth it to us, but Phx would not agree.

Homer has been trying to get Boedker out of Phx for years, so it could end up being a a bigger, wider deal.

Seriously, watching the playoffs has me thinking that we'd be better off keeping all the amazing kids, drafting three Dmen with our top picks, and signing a UFA like Hainsey or Streit, then waiting for next year's deadine/UFA crop.

Had a look at the UFA list, and Bobby Sanguinetti and Chris Summers are on it. Anyone have input on them? I know the Flyers were going to use the Giroux pick on Bobby S...

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06-10-2013, 12:08 PM
  #220
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No. It would cost him money. If amnestied, he gets full contract value of $5M (spread out over 4 years) + whatever he signs for as a UFA. He would be dumb to agree to a trade.
But that assumes the only thing he cares about is getting paid. If that is the case then I think yes he would be stupid to waive. But if he likes the destination of a trade, he may waive it. That team may not have the same interest come UFA time when other teams are bidding on him and potentially driving up the price and years. Let's just say St. Louis wants him because I think that was a rumour earlier in the year. They probably don't want him for much longer than the two years he is currently under contract for. If a trade goes through, then he is in business with the Blues for two years (a place where presumably he wans to be considering he waived), while the Blues are not paying him as much if they would be signing him as a UFA. Both sides win. If he is bought out and wants to go to St. Louis, the Blues may not want to pay him as much as he wants at that point, and there will be other teams driving up the price. Financially, that makes sense for Briere. But again, if he cares about more than money, a deal could get done.

I don't know how old DB feels, but I don't think too many teams are going to be after him for more than a mid round pick, and I don't know if the Flyers would take that.

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06-10-2013, 12:10 PM
  #221
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The more I watched this playoffs the more I realized how important two way play is. You can't win by sacrificing offense for defense. Your best offensive players have to be able to shut down the other team's top lines.

Scoring in the playoffs is at a premium, for both sides. You score just as often from offensive talent as mistakes made on the ice. Couturier provides us with that 2 way shutdown center that we need. Yeah he plays that shutdown role and his offense takes a hit from it, but we will win more with a guy like that then a player who can only contribute on one side of the ice.

Keep Couturier for the love of god.

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06-10-2013, 12:19 PM
  #222
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I like Yandle, but I love Couts. No to trading him for ANYONE.

If we could get Yandle with another package, it might be worth it to us, but Phx would not agree.

Homer has been trying to get Boedker out of Phx for years, so it could end up being a a bigger, wider deal.

Seriously, watching the playoffs has me thinking that we'd be better off keeping all the amazing kids, drafting three Dmen with our top picks, and signing a UFA like Hainsey or Streit, then waiting for next year's deadine/UFA crop.

Had a look at the UFA list, and Bobby Sanguinetti and Chris Summers are on it. Anyone have input on them? I know the Flyers were going to use the Giroux pick on Bobby S...
and how do you propose we sign a ufa like hainsey or streit, keep all our young players who are due for salary increases next year, and then make a splash in free agency next year?

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06-10-2013, 12:26 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I like Yandle, but I love Couts. No to trading him for ANYONE.

If we could get Yandle with another package, it might be worth it to us, but Phx would not agree.

Homer has been trying to get Boedker out of Phx for years, so it could end up being a a bigger, wider deal.

Seriously, watching the playoffs has me thinking that we'd be better off keeping all the amazing kids, drafting three Dmen with our top picks, and signing a UFA like Hainsey or Streit, then waiting for next year's deadine/UFA crop.

Had a look at the UFA list, and Bobby Sanguinetti and Chris Summers are on it. Anyone have input on them? I know the Flyers were going to use the Giroux pick on Bobby S...
Where have you read Homer loves Boedker?

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06-10-2013, 12:31 PM
  #224
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Where have you read Homer loves Boedker?
It was written in a stall at the Wells Fargo Center.

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06-10-2013, 12:49 PM
  #225
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No. It would cost him money. If amnestied, he gets full contract value of $5M (spread out over 4 years) + whatever he signs for as a UFA. He would be dumb to agree to a trade.
Briere will only see 2/3rds of that 5 mil. Your point still stands but if he just wants the chance to win a cup before he retires (based on his play that will be relatively soon). Teams like the Sens and Islanders would be very interested in his low salary/high cap (the latter more so is referring to the Islanders though they don't really have a good shot at a cup) and would most likely would be willing to part with something even if it's decent prospect/pick.

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