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Gauthier in Hindsight

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Old
06-10-2013, 11:20 AM
  #76
HiggsBozon
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We should definitely go back to Gauthier. Taking a team that made the conference finals, then eliminated in the 1st round of the playoffs, then finishing 15th in its own conference is definitely proof of good managing and good team evolution.

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06-10-2013, 11:22 AM
  #77
Andy
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Here is the McKenzie tweet

Quote:
Sources say PHI, TB and SJ were others pitching hard on Halak, What's clear now is that, in spite of playoffs, Price was and is MTL's guy.
https://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie/status/16411941158

Also found my post with the Kevin Allen blurb, but the link no longer works because the story is so old.

but this is what Kevin Allen reported

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The Atlanta Thrashers talked to the Montreal Canadiens about acquiring Jaroslav Halak before he was moved to the St. Louis Blues. I know the Canadiens wanted prospect Patrice Cormier as part of the deal. Several teams have called about Cormier. Take the Thrashers' interest in Halak as a subtle indication that the Thrashers aren't close to re-signing Pavel Kubina.

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06-10-2013, 11:23 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
We should definitely go back to Gauthier. Taking a team that made the conference finals, then eliminated in the 1st round of the playoffs, then finishing 15th in its own conference is definitely proof of good managing and good team evolution.
I don't think anyone is saying that.

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06-10-2013, 11:26 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I don't think anyone is saying that.
Still, the guy pretty much made a thread to say he wasn't bad. Fact is;

His team got worst every year
He was AWFUL with medias, players, coaches, well pretty much everyone
He didn't know what his team should look like. In a period of 6 months, went from: "We're a smart and quick team" to a "You need big players to win in this league".

I don't understand why people take moves like Russell - Blunden and say that's a 4 stars move because "Blunden ended up better than Russell". You take a look at Gauthier's moves as a whole, and fact is; he didn't know where this team was heading. He was reactive and he was improvising solutions when he should've had a good idea of what his team was going to look like.

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06-10-2013, 11:36 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
Just my thought.

I wouldnt write the drafted player with the pick. Who know who we would have drafted with that pick?

June 25, 2010 - 1st round pick (Mark Visentin) in 2010 and a 2nd round pick (Oscar Lindberg) in 2010 traded to Phoenix Coyotes for a 1st round pick (Jarred Tinordi) in 2010 and a 4th Round pick (Mark MacMillan) in 2010
**** = Tinordi looks solid


It was the 27th pick and the 57th pick for the 22nd (to draft Tinordi)

Visentin and Lindberg are not really in the discussion.
Agreed. Visentin and Lindberg just give you a point of reference. However, Tinordi was the reason why we moved up on draft day. He clearly made the trade because he wanted Tinordi. So we could just label it 27th pick and the 57th pick for Tinordi

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06-10-2013, 11:38 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
He was expected to play as a 3rd line center and put up points. This place was going nuts slotting Eller in for 30-40 points. Gauthier sold that to them. Going into year 4, 30 pts is his highest total. I'm a big fan of Lars, so I'm not slighting him. I just think at that point in time after going on a serious cup run, trading a piece like Halak for a prospect and another guy with 0 talent wasn't the greatest move. He didn't even shop Halak. Why not?
It's not uncommon for these boards especially to vastly overrate prospects and their impact in the NHL. Halak was a big part of the playoff run but if you're going with Price as your #1 then would have little to no impact on any subsequent runs so even though it was a trade for the future it doesn't hurt the present (If you believe in Price). As for shopping him, see Habs03's posts.

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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Still, lets say Gauthier was looking towards the future, then he's an even bigger idiot when you look at his other moves because it completely contradicts that. Again, I'm not going to ***** too much about it since Eller is turning into a good player.
There's nothing wrong with looking at both the future and the right now. In fact it's what you should be doing. Often times it's a balance, and it's clear that Gauthier did a good job of that in this instance.

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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
What element does he add? He can hit and plays a physical game. He also is very inconsistent and has not scored anywhere near the rate he did in Calgary. Actually, he's on a downards clip when Cammy improved when he went to Calgary.
He's bigger, more physical, is better defensively, and creates more space for his linemates. We were considered small/soft so he traded arguably our smallest/softest player for a bigger player. Cammalleri is the better player which is why we were able to get the cap space + picks/prospect, but Cammy was struggling with us because our top-6 was out of balance with too many perimeter players guys and not enough drive the net players.

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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
To say Bourque brings more than points and Cammy does not. Cammy was not acquired to crash and bang. He was acquired to be a sniper. I will take playoff Cammy over "brings other elements" Bourque any day of the week. As for the Cap talk. It is irrelevant when you consider the Kaberle trade and the Cole contract. Gauthier had no clue what he was doing.
I never said Cammy was aquired to crash and bang, but our top-6 had too many perimeter players and not enough crash and bang guys so it makes perfect sense to trade one for the other. Because of the difference in skill we also got some picks/prospects. As great as Cammy was in the playoffs, he wass being paid 6m and would struggle to score 20 goals in the regular season. Which makes it tough to even make the playoffs.

Cole was worth every penny that year and was then turned into more assets once he started to struggle. Kaberle will not be on the team when the cap drops so is irrelevant.

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06-10-2013, 11:39 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Still, the guy pretty much made a thread to say he wasn't bad. Fact is;

His team got worst every year
He was AWFUL with medias, players, coaches, well pretty much everyone
He didn't know what his team should look like. In a period of 6 months, went from: "We're a smart and quick team" to a "You need big players to win in this league".

I don't understand why people take moves like Russell - Blunden and say that's a 4 stars move because "Blunden ended up better than Russell". You take a look at Gauthier's moves as a whole, and fact is; he didn't know where this team was heading. He was reactive and he was improvising solutions when he should've had a good idea of what his team was going to look like.
His team got worse every year? The Canadiens went from barely finishing 8th to competing for the division lead the following year, that is, until Max Pacioretty got hurt in the Chara incident and ended up finishing 6th, but there was a net improvement on the previous year. The Habs went 16-6-5 from the Wisniewski (Dec 31st until Begining of March) trade to the Pacioretty injury. They finished the season 7-7-1 after the injury and lost a 7 game series against Boston 4-3 where both teams scores 17 goals in seven and where Boston had to win 3 games in OT in order to advance to the second round. It was a hard fought and extremely close series against the eventual cup champions. I wouldn't call that getting worse every year. They had improvement in one season and then finish last the next.


As a GM Gauthier definitely was reactive and didn't surround the team with the best of cultures, but when people speak of his tenure, it's highly exaggerated. His biggest mistake last season was banking on a healthy Markov without getting an adequate replacement. Instead he chose to ice a very very young defensive squad led by Gill, Subban and Gorges which made us lose games early in the year as the team couldn't hold onto a lead to save their lives. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it) it led to his firing. The Canadiens couldn't make up for the amount of games lost earlier and key players kept going down to injury afterwards...Gauthier eventually threw in the towel, firing his coach and trading for picks.

I think what people are trying to say is that the fan reaction to Gauthier was extremely exaggerated. Does that mean he was a great GM? No, but he certainly wasn't as awful as he was portrayed to be and it showed in the fact that all it took was a little culture change to turn last year's last place roster into a competitive team (this doesn't mean the team doesn't need work).


Last edited by Andy: 06-10-2013 at 02:44 PM.
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06-10-2013, 11:45 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
It's not uncommon for these boards especially to vastly overrate prospects and their impact in the NHL. Halak was a big part of the playoff run but if you're going with Price as your #1 then would have little to no impact on any subsequent runs so even though it was a trade for the future it doesn't hurt the present (If you believe in Price). As for shopping him, see Habs03's posts.



There's nothing wrong with looking at both the future and the right now. In fact it's what you should be doing. Often times it's a balance, and it's clear that Gauthier did a good job of that in this instance.



He's bigger, more physical, is better defensively, and creates more space for his linemates. We were considered small/soft so he traded arguably our smallest/softest player for a bigger player. Cammalleri is the better player which is why we were able to get the cap space + picks/prospect, but Cammy was struggling with us because our top-6 was out of balance with too many perimeter players guys and not enough drive the net players.



I never said Cammy was aquired to crash and bang, but our top-6 had too many perimeter players and not enough crash and bang guys so it makes perfect sense to trade one for the other. Because of the difference in skill we also got some picks/prospects. As great as Cammy was in the playoffs, he wass being paid 6m and would struggle to score 20 goals in the regular season. Which makes it tough to even make the playoffs.

Cole was worth every penny that year and was then turned into more assets once he started to struggle. Kaberle will not be on the team when the cap drops so is irrelevant.

C'mon. You can't look at just one deal in a vacuum. If you're talking about cap relief, you must look at other deals. Trading Cam because you took on cap for Kaberle is downright stupid. The Cole deal was not a good one. Because Bergevin had the foresight to get rid of Cole should not reflect positively on Gauthier. With Gauthier here...we keep Cole and pray that he gets better next year...then trade him for a late round pick and take salary back. I have no doubt that Gauthier would have bungled that situation.

Cammy would have been a great player to have this year, especially in the playoffs. Cam for whatever reason has really gotten pooped on here...along with our captain and leading goal scorer (3 out of 4 seasons) in Brian Gionta. It makes NO sense at all.

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06-10-2013, 11:46 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Still, the guy pretty much made a thread to say he wasn't bad. Fact is;

His team got worst every year
He was AWFUL with medias, players, coaches, well pretty much everyone
He didn't know what his team should look like. In a period of 6 months, went from: "We're a smart and quick team" to a "You need big players to win in this league".

I don't understand why people take moves like Russell - Blunden and say that's a 4 stars move because "Blunden ended up better than Russell". You take a look at Gauthier's moves as a whole, and fact is; he didn't know where this team was heading. He was reactive and he was improvising solutions when he should've had a good idea of what his team was going to look like.
I'm not saying I want Gauthier back. I just see a lot of people bashing him on these boards. I think overall his trades were okay. Maybe he lacked personality, charisma, and handling of the media but the guy has a hockey mind and deserves a bit more credit. Anaheim, Ottawa, Montreal, and Chicago have all recognized that he has talent and given him important positions in their franchises.

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06-10-2013, 11:53 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Cole was worth every penny that year and was then turned into more assets once he started to struggle. Kaberle will not be on the team when the cap drops so is irrelevant.
The issue with Cole's signing was always the term.

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06-10-2013, 12:11 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Still, the guy pretty much made a thread to say he wasn't bad. Fact is;

His team got worst every year
He was AWFUL with medias, players, coaches, well pretty much everyone
He didn't know what his team should look like. In a period of 6 months, went from: "We're a smart and quick team" to a "You need big players to win in this league".
You do realize he would only say anything after the fact and they are all cliche lines that give no insight. Gauthier was secretive so he wasn't going to announce the direction he was planning on taking, if he acquired a small speedy guy he would say speed was important, if he acquired a big guy he would say big strong guys are important. He gave the media no insight into what his actual vision for the team was.

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Originally Posted by Steve Shutt View Post
Agreed. Visentin and Lindberg just give you a point of reference. However, Tinordi was the reason why we moved up on draft day. He clearly made the trade because he wanted Tinordi. So we could just label it 27th pick and the 57th pick for Tinordi
To be fair it's probably Timmins decision in the end. If Timmins says this Tinordi kid is going to be great we should try and get him, Gauthier's job is to get the best deal possible and then Timmins would evaluate whether it was worth it to move up for that cost.

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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
C'mon. You can't look at just one deal in a vacuum. If you're talking about cap relief, you must look at other deals. Trading Cam because you took on cap for Kaberle is downright stupid. The Cole deal was not a good one. Because Bergevin had the foresight to get rid of Cole should not reflect positively on Gauthier. With Gauthier here...we keep Cole and pray that he gets better next year...then trade him for a late round pick and take salary back. I have no doubt that Gauthier would have bungled that situation.

Cammy would have been a great player to have this year, especially in the playoffs. Cam for whatever reason has really gotten pooped on here...along with our captain and leading goal scorer (3 out of 4 seasons) in Brian Gionta. It makes NO sense at all.
I agree when looking at cap space you have to look at the big picture but the big picture is this. He came in saddled with a number of overpaid players, he managed the cap well enough to be able to go after prime UFA candidates every year (Didn't we offer Richards more money than the Rangers?) and he left the next GM in a very good position cap wise. His cap management was very good.

We didn't trade Cammy because we acquired Kaberle, we traded him because he was not producing. He wasn't even on pace to score 20 goals if I remember correctly.

4.5 million for a 35 goal scorer is execeptional especially when that guy is big, fast, and a leader. And saying it was a bad deal because of some dream you had about what Gauthier might've done differently is just dumb.

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06-10-2013, 12:14 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
The issue with Cole's signing was always the term.
So long as he was able to produce to start with there was always going to be a team willing to take a chance on him. Especially since his deal was front-loaded.

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06-10-2013, 12:16 PM
  #88
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So all-in-all he was pretty good at making ok-to-good deals while his team got worse?!

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06-10-2013, 12:35 PM
  #89
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I hate such bs like this, there is no way of proofing that, it could be true but none of what you said proofs anything, the guy has had a job in the league for what 30 years, the NHL is a old boys club, is a lot of ppl don't like you, your not getting hired. Heck Gauthier a job with Hawks after getting fired pretty fast.

Lmao at the Halak comment, if a GM didn't knew one of Price or Halak was going to get traded they shouldn't have a job, your thinking of the Cammy trade.

whether its good or not, Gauthier was the type of GM that would go after certain players he likes, instead just offering to everyone and taking what the best offer is. And he did that with Halak, Bob Mackenize reported that 4 teams had solid offers for Halak, San Jose, Tampa, Flyers, and Blues, and PG wanted Eller even though Blues were trying to keep Eller and give other assets.
Wow you really blew my point out of the water when you bring up 4 teams showing interest in Halak, instead of the 'about 3 at the most' that I stated. I could care less that Chicago took in Gauthier in a limited capacity, all I know is he will never be a GM in this league again. Nobody in their right mind would give that man a General Manager job again, not ever.

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Lmao at the Halak comment, if a GM didn't knew one of Price or Halak was going to get traded they shouldn't have a job, your thinking of the Cammy trade.
You still don't get it. That's my entire point. Everyone knew he was going to be traded, and numb-nuts generated around 4 sincere phone calls. There should have been a dozen teams lining up for Halak if a respectable GM was behind the wheel. It doesn't take a great deal of sleuthing to understand he had a limited amount of dance partners to deal with.

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06-10-2013, 12:51 PM
  #90
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Wow you really blew my point out of the water when you bring up 4 teams showing interest in Halak, instead of the 'about 3 at the most' that I stated. I could care less that Chicago took in Gauthier in a limited capacity, all I know is he will never be a GM in this league again. Nobody in their right mind would give that man a General Manager job again, not ever.



You still don't get it. That's my entire point. Everyone knew he was going to be traded, and numb-nuts generated around 4 sincere phone calls. There should have been a dozen teams lining up for Halak if a respectable GM was behind the wheel. It doesn't take a great deal of sleuthing to understand he had a limited amount of dance partners to deal with.
Like I said Gauthier seems to key on certain players he wants, like the Doug Armatrong quote, Gauthier wanted Eller, and got him, getting more calls doesn't mean better offers, but that's not my point.

You said he has limited trading partners, yet he has traded all his trades have been with different expect for 2 trades.

in regards to being a GM again, I don't think so but you never know, ppl said he would never got another after he was fired, not for hired pretty fast.

As the limited capacity, it has him 3rd man in charge behind the ast GM and GM, not as limited as you think


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06-10-2013, 12:59 PM
  #91
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*Sigh*...

We really deserved Gauthier.

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06-10-2013, 01:23 PM
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Wow you really blew my point out of the water when you bring up 4 teams showing interest in Halak, instead of the 'about 3 at the most' that I stated. I could care less that Chicago took in Gauthier in a limited capacity, all I know is he will never be a GM in this league again. Nobody in their right mind would give that man a General Manager job again, not ever.



You still don't get it. That's my entire point. Everyone knew he was going to be traded, and numb-nuts generated around 4 sincere phone calls. There should have been a dozen teams lining up for Halak if a respectable GM was behind the wheel. It doesn't take a great deal of sleuthing to understand he had a limited amount of dance partners to deal with.
If there's a GM out there that needed a goaltender and didn't call Gauthier because he didn't enjoy talking to him then that GM should be fired.

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06-10-2013, 02:04 PM
  #93
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How about the moves he didn't made? and should have?

How about turning this org. against the media and their fans?

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06-10-2013, 02:35 PM
  #94
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PG sucked. Terrible with the media, terrible culture, terrible with handling the Markov situation.

PG and JM were essentially brought in together and left together.

This new blood is leaps and bounds above Gainey/Gauthier/Martin

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06-10-2013, 02:55 PM
  #95
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terrible culture
this is not a part of OPs post, but this is the most important one in my opinion.

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06-10-2013, 04:20 PM
  #96
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If there's a GM out there that needed a goaltender and didn't call Gauthier because he didn't enjoy talking to him then that GM should be fired.
I hate to break it to you, but GM's usually deal with the same group of teams over and over again. Sometimes that group is big, sometimes small. Do you call people you dislike when you need something? Think about that.

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06-10-2013, 04:35 PM
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I hate to break it to you, but GM's usually deal with the same group of teams over and over again. Sometimes that group is big, sometimes small. Do you call people you dislike when you need something? Think about that.
Well looking at his trades he's traded with 13 different teams in 2 years so I don't see where this idea that nobody is willing to talk to him comes from.

There are a few people I don't particularly like at work and yes if I need something from them I'll talk to them. Are you saying you don't? Do you just sit in your cubicle hoping the thing you need is going to magically get done?

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06-10-2013, 04:40 PM
  #98
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I hate to break it to you, but GM's usually deal with the same group of teams over and over again. Sometimes that group is big, sometimes small. Do you call people you dislike when you need something? Think about that.
Maybe not, but teams have Ast GM and that can work deals.

Burke had a big fight with Oilers GM Kevin Lowe, and when asked if it would stop him from making a deal with the Oilers, he said, he'll just have an ast GM work the deal.

And I'm just wondering who are these GM that don't like PG? Atleast to the point where they won't talk to him.

He has made deals with Fla,Canes, Blues, Coyotes, Preds, Tampa, Avs, Islanders, Ducks, Thrashers, Jets(new managment), Flames.

Was hired by the Hawks, and we can add San Jose, and the Flyers because Bob Mac confirmed that they were in on the Halak trade, so I doubt anyone there doesn't like him enough that won't make a deal....

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06-10-2013, 04:45 PM
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The Gauthier defenders are in full force.

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06-10-2013, 04:50 PM
  #100
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So long as he was able to produce to start with there was always going to be a team willing to take a chance on him. Especially since his deal was front-loaded.
The front loaded aspect of the deal wasn't really that big: 6, 4, 4, 4. Habs dodged a bullet that the Stars' former management team took a chance because we'd be in an interesting cap situation if we kept him and he had the season he had.

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