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2013 NHL Draft Talk Part V: Flyers own the 11th overall pick

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Old
06-10-2013, 12:51 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Had a look at the UFA list, and Bobby Sanguinetti and Chris Summers are on it. Anyone have input on them? I know the Flyers were going to use the Giroux pick on Bobby S...
I would stay far away from Sanguinetti. Not sure about Summers.
The Flyers also had Trevor Lewis rated ahead of Giroux as well.

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06-10-2013, 12:52 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Briere will only see 2/3rds of that 5 mil. Your point still stands but if he just wants the chance to win a cup before he retires (based on his play that will be relatively soon). Teams like the Sens and Islanders would be very interested in his low salary/high cap (the latter more so is referring to the Islanders though they don't really have a good shot at a cup) and would most likely would be willing to part with something even if it's decent prospect/pick.
But Briere won't waive to go those places.

He's already (reportedly) refused to waive his NMC, and that was during the season, when at least he would have had an extra shot at a cup.

I think its safe to say at this point that trading him is not a viable option.


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06-10-2013, 12:53 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Briere will only see 2/3rds of that 5 mil. Your point still stands but if he just wants the chance to win a cup before he retires (based on his play that will be relatively soon). Teams like the Sens and Islanders would be very interested in his low salary/high cap (the latter more so is referring to the Islanders though they don't really have a good shot at a cup) and would most likely would be willing to part with something even if it's decent prospect/pick.
Huh? I thought with compliance buy-out's the player gets whatever amount is left on his contract?

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06-10-2013, 12:58 PM
  #229
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and how do you propose we sign a ufa like hainsey or streit, keep all our young players who are due for salary increases next year, and then make a splash in free agency next year?
I am not saying your wrong but i went on cap geek and made this preliminary roster with Streit signed at his rumored 5.5 cap hit. Also has Briere and Bryz bought out. As well as pronger since he will be on LTIR. Some people may dispute what I gave Giroux, Schenn, Couts, and Gus but I think they are close. As far as Mason, I was really not sure so it could be less than I put giving us more cap space.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Claude Giroux ($7.500m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Braden Schenn ($3.200m) / sean Couturier ($3.000m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Scott Laughton ($1.107m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m)
Jay Rosehill ($0.675m) / Adam Hall ($0.700m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Erik Gustafsson ($1.500m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Mark Streit ($5.500m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
GOALTENDERS
Steve Mason ($4.000m)
OTHER
Buyout: Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
Buyout: Danny Briere ($0.000m)
Buyout: Chris Pronger ($0.000m)
Buyout: Ilya Bryzgalov ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $54,356,667; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (17-man roster): $9,943,333

We would have almost 10 million in cap space left, not to mention if the cap goes up from 64.3 million. So ten million to sign 2 top 9 forwards, a top six defenseman, a 7th defenseman and a backup goalie. Its not the best situation, but it isnt that bad. If Gus plays well this year we could move Coburn to make space for a potential top pairing defenseman.

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06-10-2013, 01:58 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Huh? I thought with compliance buy-out's the player gets whatever amount is left on his contract?
No, they only get 2/3.

http://capgeek.com/buyout-calculator/

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Danny Briere is 35 years old on the buyout date of June 28 2013, setting the buyout ratio at 2/3 and the total buyout cost at $3,333,333 spread over 4 years. His contract was originally valued at $52,000,000 beginning in 2007 and ending in 2015, with $5,000,000 remaining from the buyout year forward. The following is a season-by-season breakdown of the buyout.

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06-10-2013, 01:58 PM
  #231
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The more I watched this playoffs the more I realized how important two way play is. You can't win by sacrificing offense for defense. Your best offensive players have to be able to shut down the other team's top lines.

Scoring in the playoffs is at a premium, for both sides. You score just as often from offensive talent as mistakes made on the ice. Couturier provides us with that 2 way shutdown center that we need. Yeah he plays that shutdown role and his offense takes a hit from it, but we will win more with a guy like that then a player who can only contribute on one side of the ice.

Keep Couturier for the love of god.
Yes. Trade him (and more) for a #1 D, and congrats..you have that #1 dman that Cup winning teams tend to have. However, now you lack that really excellent defensive center Cup winning teams tend to have. Guys like Staal, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Couturier, etc...they don't grow on trees either and they're just about as important.

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06-10-2013, 02:53 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
That is the rules for a standard buyout. That comes with a cap hit on the Flyers books. Compliance buyouts are the full amount to the player, but clears ALL of the the cap hit from the books. Big difference.

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06-10-2013, 03:46 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
That is the rules for a standard buyout. That comes with a cap hit on the Flyers books. Compliance buyouts are the full amount to the player, but clears ALL of the the cap hit from the books. Big difference.
And the big reason why Danny's getting amnestied - he won't accept a trade.

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06-10-2013, 03:52 PM
  #234
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"You want me to make less money AND help YOU out?"

Amnesty money + New Contract > Current Contract kept with trade.

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06-10-2013, 03:56 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yes. Trade him (and more) for a #1 D, and congrats..you have that #1 dman that Cup winning teams tend to have. However, now you lack that really excellent defensive center Cup winning teams tend to have. Guys like Staal, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Couturier, etc...they don't grow on trees either and they're just about as important.
Agreed. We HAVE to keep Couturier unless it's an OEL or Doughty coming back. Yandle or Voynov aren't enough.

Really, as a rookie he shut Malkin down, something only Bergeron has been able to do since....

He has more offensive talent than he got to show, but it doesn't mean Homer doesn't recognize it.

Looking at a group of Cs: Giroux, Schenn, Couts and Laughton, I think this can be an elite core to build around without dealing any of them.

We need to find one good Dman to play with Luke:

???? - Schenn
Timonen-Coburn
Grossmann-Meszaros-Gustafsson
Gervais

We have some wingers I'd trade for the 'right' dman: Read, Talbot and even Simmonds or Hartnell are more expendable than any of the 4 young Cs to me. And Meszaros or Gus could be added to a deal for a puck mover too.

There are loads of wingers who can score who will be UFAs soon, certainly more supply than likely demand.

E.g. Chicago is going to have to decide whether to buy out Hossa, and if they can compete to reup Bickell and/or Stalberg. They will replace from their system = not buyers.

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06-10-2013, 03:58 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
That is the rules for a standard buyout. That comes with a cap hit on the Flyers books. Compliance buyouts are the full amount to the player, but clears ALL of the the cap hit from the books. Big difference.
You're wrong. It's still two thirds as per page 289 of the CBA.

http://www.nhlpa.com/inside-nhlpa/co...ning-agreement

"Compliance Buy-Outs shall be effectuated on the same terms as are set forth in
Paragraph 13 of the SPC, except that (i) there shall be no charge against
the Club's Averaged Club Salary in any League Year on account of a
Compliance Buy-Out and (ii) any amounts paid pursuant to a Compliance
Buy-Out shall be counted against the Players' Share in the League Years
in which they are paid."

http://flyersfaithful.com/2012/08/06...tract-buyouts/

Quote:
13. The Club, in addition to other rights hereunder, at its option, by written notice delivered to the Player in person, or by overnight mail to the Player’s address set forth herein, may terminate this SPC on the following conditions:
(a) The Club shall offer the Player on Unconditional Waivers, either before or promptly after the notice of intention to exercise the Ordinary Course Buy-Out
option (herein called “notice of termination”) is given.

(i) beginning the later of June 15 or forty-eight (48) hours after the conclusion of the Stanley Cup Finals and ending at 5:00 p.m. New York time on June 30; and

(i) if the Player is under 26 years of age at the time the termination is effective, an amount equal to 1/3 of, or
(ii) if the Player is 26 years of age or older at the time the termination is effective, an amount equal to 2/3 of the total fixed amount of the Player’s Paragraph 1 NHL Salary, for the unexpired fixed-term of this SPC, reduced by any advance payment of Paragraph 1 Salary received by the Player prior to the date the termination is effective.
(e) Upon termination, the Player shall immediately be an Unrestricted Free Agent and shall no longer be obligated to perform under this SPC.

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06-10-2013, 04:00 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
That is the rules for a standard buyout. That comes with a cap hit on the Flyers books. Compliance buyouts are the full amount to the player, but clears ALL of the the cap hit from the books. Big difference.
Oh, crap. That would mean that no matter when they buy Bryzgalov out it'll all be the same cost. At least that won't influence the decision.

Sounds like Briere and Bryzgalov would be the amnesty candidates, then.

---

Now, back on topic to the draft. I'm leaning towards Ryan Pulock if Nurse or Ristolainen don't fall to us. I'd take Pulock over Shinkaruk, but not over Lindholm or Monahan. I wouldn't take Nurse or Ristolainen over Lindholm or Monahan either regardless of positon - they're just clearly high end players that could help us fill holes if we trade assets for help on defense (Couturier...). Pulock slots in at 10th on my list now, though. Zadorov, Morrissey and Morin would be my next 3 on defense but I have Domi, Zykov, Lazar and Horvat ranked similarly to them.

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06-10-2013, 04:23 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yes. Trade him (and more) for a #1 D, and congrats..you have that #1 dman that Cup winning teams tend to have. However, now you lack that really excellent defensive center Cup winning teams tend to have. Guys like Staal, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Couturier, etc...they don't grow on trees either and they're just about as important.
Can we sticky this post in every thread .

Seriously though. Important point that some people dont understand I guess.

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06-10-2013, 05:34 PM
  #239
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Can we sticky this post in every thread .

Seriously though. Important point that some people dont understand I guess.
I don't think your top defensive forward is as valuable as your top defenseman. Valuable, for sure, but I think even Pavel Datsyuk, arguably the best two way forward in the league, is not as valuable as a Zdeno Chara. Once again, certainly valuable, but if given the choice between a true elite franchise defenseman and a true elite 2-way forward, I would take the defenseman every day of the week. Obviously it is ideal to have a Selke caliber guy, but I think you can get by with a lesser player in that role moreso than you can with having a lesser player in the #1 defender.

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06-10-2013, 05:48 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I don't think your top defensive forward is as valuable as your top defenseman. Valuable, for sure, but I think even Pavel Datsyuk, arguably the best two way forward in the league, is not as valuable as a Zdeno Chara. Once again, certainly valuable, but if given the choice between a true elite franchise defenseman and a true elite 2-way forward, I would take the defenseman every day of the week. Obviously it is ideal to have a Selke caliber guy, but I think you can get by with a lesser player in that role moreso than you can with having a lesser player in the #1 defender.
Hence why I said "just about as important." When you have one of those guys he isn't someone you just trade away, though. Especially not for a glorified Matt Carle.

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06-10-2013, 07:55 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
You're wrong. It's still two thirds as per page 289 of the CBA.

http://www.nhlpa.com/inside-nhlpa/co...ning-agreement

"Compliance Buy-Outs shall be effectuated on the same terms as are set forth in
Paragraph 13 of the SPC, except that (i) there shall be no charge against
the Club's Averaged Club Salary in any League Year on account of a
Compliance Buy-Out and (ii) any amounts paid pursuant to a Compliance
Buy-Out shall be counted against the Players' Share in the League Years
in which they are paid."

http://flyersfaithful.com/2012/08/06...tract-buyouts/
Thanks, I was too lazy to look it up but I was pretty sure it was 2/3rds.


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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
But Briere won't waive to go those places.

He's already (reportedly) refused to waive his NMC, and that was during the season, when at least he would have had an extra shot at a cup.

I think its safe to say at this point that trading him is not a viable option.
I know he did but that was also at the deadline, if he had the summer it might be a different story. And yeah I really don't see the Islanders as a possibility but with a healthy Karlsson and Spezza they are legit IMO assuming Anderson can play like he did last year. I don't see why he wouldn't go to Ottawa, I think he's from the area too no?

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06-10-2013, 07:59 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Hence why I said "just about as important." When you have one of those guys he isn't someone you just trade away, though. Especially not for a glorified Matt Carle.
I think putting Couturier in the category of a Datsyuk or Bergeron is premature. He might be there one day, but after a season and a half, I certainly wouldn't put him there.

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06-10-2013, 08:01 PM
  #243
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I think putting Couturier in the category of a Datsyuk or Bergeron is premature. He might be there one day, but after a season and a half, I certainly wouldn't put him there.
Agreed, Flyers fans get upset about other HFers that over rate prospects and draft picks (compared to Read for example) and yet Couturier is mentioned in the same sentence as those guys.

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06-10-2013, 08:17 PM
  #244
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I think putting Couturier in the category of a Datsyuk or Bergeron is premature. He might be there one day, but after a season and a half, I certainly wouldn't put him there.
Offensively he isn't there. Defensively? He's pretty close and only going to get better with experience.

Edit: As far as overrating? Right. I tend to underrate our prospects until they show something in the NHL, even then I'm reluctant. The last guy I "overrated" and considered un-tradeable was Giroux. I'm slow to get excited. What Couturier has shown is pretty damned exciting.


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06-10-2013, 08:40 PM
  #245
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I think putting Couturier in the category of a Datsyuk or Bergeron is premature. He might be there one day, but after a season and a half, I certainly wouldn't put him there.
Dont know if he is in the elite category, but I do think your underrating how good he is defensively.

Kind of an older article but one that highlights what he has done at only 20 yrs old.

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...defense-flyers

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06-10-2013, 10:06 PM
  #246
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It was written in a stall at the Wells Fargo Center.
That made me laugh

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06-10-2013, 10:46 PM
  #247
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I love how people assume that keeping Giroux, Schenn, couturier and Laughton will lead to an elite group of centers...

Ice time is a thing... A thing that young players need to develop. Keeping all these players at the same position for an extended period of time is a death wish to 2 of them, destroying any future trade calue, while we refused to trade one of them for something we actually need. Balance.

Also, we so easily throw couturier in with datsyuk, staal and Bergeron as the defensive center so important to a cup winning team, yet neglect to acknowledge that Laughton projects to be a darn good 2-way center...

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06-10-2013, 11:07 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
I love how people assume that keeping Giroux, Schenn, couturier and Laughton will lead to an elite group of centers...

Ice time is a thing... A thing that young players need to develop. Keeping all these players at the same position for an extended period of time is a death wish to 2 of them, destroying any future trade calue, while we refused to trade one of them for something we actually need. Balance.

Also, we so easily throw couturier in with datsyuk, staal and Bergeron as the defensive center so important to a cup winning team, yet neglect to acknowledge that Laughton projects to be a darn good 2-way center...
I was thinking about that. I like all of our young centers but realistically we can't keep them all. I think we as fans are so hesitant or just flat out unwilling to see one of our young guys get traded because we've been burned a few times in the past (Sharp, Williams, Bob, JVR to an extent) and then have had to hear about how the Flyers were so dumb for trading them. No, I don't like seeing young guys with great potential moved either, but as you said sometimes it has to be done to fill other holes.

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06-10-2013, 11:11 PM
  #249
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I love how people assume that keeping Giroux, Schenn, couturier and Laughton will lead to an elite group of centers...

Ice time is a thing... A thing that young players need to develop. Keeping all these players at the same position for an extended period of time is a death wish to 2 of them, destroying any future trade calue, while we refused to trade one of them for something we actually need. Balance.

Also, we so easily throw couturier in with datsyuk, staal and Bergeron as the defensive center so important to a cup winning team, yet neglect to acknowledge that Laughton projects to be a darn good 2-way center...
Laughton is unproven. Couturier isn't.

Edit: And I'd rather keep the better of the two anyways.

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06-10-2013, 11:11 PM
  #250
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Well we could move Schenn to wing eventually which would bump Couturier and Laughton up a line.

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