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Subban and that bridge contract..(what to expect with his next extension)

View Poll Results: Bridge contract
Bridge contract was a smart deal. It was a good move for both parties 107 54.04%
Should have signed him long term (likely cheaper) when we had the chance. Bit of a blunder by MB. 91 45.96%
Voters: 198. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-11-2013, 03:52 PM
  #176
groovejuice
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Renaud Lavoie tweeted today that PK was not invited to the WC
The twitterverse ran with that and turned it into:
If he's not invited to the WC then he must not be in the plans for Sochi
or something to that effect

Does everything need a
They have a full roster. Don't plan on adding anyone else.

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05-11-2013, 03:57 PM
  #177
GordonGraham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Renaud Lavoie tweeted today that PK was not invited to the WC
The twitterverse ran with that and turned it into:
If he's not invited to the WC then he must not be in the plans for Sochi
or something to that effect

Does everything need a

well they did add Dan hamhuis yesterday so he was clearly picked ahead of PK by team canada management

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Old
05-11-2013, 04:10 PM
  #178
onebighockeyfan
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I was for the bridge contract. Subban had a great season and yes he will cost us a little bit more. Long term he would have cost 5+ now he will cost 6+. Worst case scenario he wins the Norris and gets Karlson money. He will not be able to get more.

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05-11-2013, 04:57 PM
  #179
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@ArponBasu:
Asked Subban about criticism from HNIC: "I actually kind of like it when they talk like that, because it just adds more fuel to the fire."

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05-11-2013, 09:52 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PyrettaBlaze View Post
@ArponBasu:
Asked Subban about criticism from HNIC: "I actually kind of like it when they talk like that, because it just adds more fuel to the fire."
I wish more had this attitude when criticized. It's easy to beat yourself up or lash back but the players that are mentally tough enough to handle it are the ones that use it to improve as a player and a person.

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05-11-2013, 09:57 PM
  #181
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Add a third option, satisfied with the way it turned out. Would have liked a long term deal but understand what Bergiven was thinking.

It was a smart move given the players we have coming up for a contract soon.

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05-12-2013, 02:43 AM
  #182
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i don't like the poll's options.

previous to him signing the contract there was doubt and concern about his character, his maturity and his ability to fit in the group. and bergevin didn't want to sign somebody long term straight out of ELC.

given what was known at the time i think it was a reasonable decision. i would have gladly signed subban for 8 years at 4-5 million whatever, but im not the one that has to answer to moslon or the fans. i think bergevin essentially challanged subban's character and he responded in the way he always does: by being better.

look at it this way: is it better to end up overpaying for an under performing player, or is it better to pay more for proven ability?

there are always posters that will come out of the woodwork shouting from the rooftops: "i told you it was a mistake", only proclaiming their own infallibility when they are correct and conveniently ignoring the instances when they are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habiton View Post
Add a third option, satisfied with the way it turned out. Would have liked a long term deal but understand what Bergiven was thinking.

It was a smart move given the players we have coming up for a contract soon.
my hangover is making me wordy, what that guy siad ^

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06-10-2013, 05:50 PM
  #183
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That famous Bridge Contract

Now that Subban is most likely the 2013 Norris Trophy winner, I see a lot of people complaining about the bridge contract that he signed several months ago. I have to admit that I'd rather have a PK signed at 25M/5 years right now, but I have the firm belief that it is not as bad as it seems. First, PK would not have signed long term for anything under 5M. That being said, one could say that we overpay by 2,5M which is significant, but will become less of a burden as the salary cap rises by 2015.

Also, people seem to forget that Marc Bergevin is trying to implement an organizational culture among his team. He wants his player to be paid according to what that deserve and not to what they project to deserve. I guess that this is where most people do not agree with him due to the salary cap issues. However, the nuance I want to bring up is the importance of having a sane organizational culture based on solid grounds.

It was said in the past that no one could sign with the Detroit Red Wings for more money than Nicklas Lidstrom. That was the mentality among that team back then and players still wanted to play for the Wings (i.e Hossa). Thus, in order to succeed in bussiness, it's important to have values, a vision and a plan. And this is what Marc Bergevin is doing right now. No one will be paid big bucks until he proves he deserves every penny. No matter whether your name is Price, Pacioretty, Subban or Eller, you have to follow these rules you want to belong to the Montreal Canadiens. In my humble opinion, I believe that having such a culture based on merit and without double standards is worth more than 2,5M, and anyways these 3M might be saved at one point (ex: a promising player that never reaches his potential).

You mat disagree with me, but this is how I perceive the whole thing

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06-10-2013, 06:00 PM
  #184
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Your theory about no one getting paid big bucks unless they prove it goes out the window with the Desharnais and Price signings and with the fact that Bergevin in the Cole trad stated that in a cap world, every dollar counts.

Subban was on the verge of breaking out, we all knew it (well most of us did). We had the opportunity to get him at a discount and we missed the boat.

I wonder how much this has to do with a "philosophy" and how much of it had to do with Bergevin and Therrien's confidence in Subban's ability...especially when you take into account the discourse around Subban that Therrien and Bergevin created at the beginning of the year about how "Subban has to learn how to be a team player", "I want to make Subban into a man"..."we want Subban to put the team first"..."he still has a lot to prove"

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06-10-2013, 06:09 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Your theory about no one getting paid big bucks unless they prove it goes out the window with the Desharnais and Price signings and with the fact that Bergevin in the Cole trad stated that in a cap world, every dollar counts.

Subban was on the verge of breaking out, we all knew it (well most of us did). We had the opportunity to get him at a discount and we missed the boat.

I wonder how much this has to do with a "philosophy" and how much of it had to do with Bergevin and Therrien's confidence in Subban's ability...especially when you take into account the discourse around Subban that Therrien and Bergevin created at the beginning of the year about how "Subban has to learn how to be a team player", "I want to make Subban into a man"..."we want Subban to put the team first"..."he still has a lot to prove"
Stop being the drama queen in what is a very good situation for the Habs.

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06-10-2013, 06:13 PM
  #186
Andy
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Stop being the drama queen in what is a very good situation for the Habs.
The poster who exaggerates anything Carey Price related calling another poster a drama queen...that's rich.

We said it the moment the contract was sign that we might have to pay more long-term for short-term gain. Yes, it is a good situation to have a Norris winner on your back-end. However, it's even better to have your best players signed at discounts.

For someone who continually preaches against mediocrity and expects nothing but excellence from management, you should want Subban signed below his value especially when the team had the option to do so.

We all saw Subban on the verge of breaking out prior to this season, he already was the team's #1 D-man before this season started and had the opportunity to lock him up at a discount.

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06-10-2013, 06:19 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
The poster who exaggerates anything Carey Price related calling another poster a drama queen...that's rich.

We said it the moment the contract was sign that we might have to pay more long-term for short-term gain. Yes, it is a good situation to have a Norris winner on your back-end. However, it's even better to have your best players signed at discounts.

For someone who continually preaches against mediocrity and expects nothing but excellence from management, you should want Subban signed below his value especially when the team had the option to do so.
There are no below value signings, that's why these guys pay 5 percent to agents that know the market and where it's heading and who don't allow them into contracts that are low in value.

You think you have this all figured out that PK was ready to sign for a pittance a few months ago, he wasn't that's why he and management couldn't get a deal done. Now the course of action is set. He will get an extension after next year and get his fair value contract and the Habs are the better for it.

The screw up is in your thinking, not MB's approach, but as always you think you're smarter than he is and would-of-could-of done it better.

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06-10-2013, 06:20 PM
  #188
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Bridge contracts are better IMO, yes cap hit will be later, yes, but you are getting 2 years of Norris play at 2.85M. PPL seem to not pay much attention.

PPL think that signing guys for 5 years after their ELC need to know that after those 5 years the player is a UFA, which will be the case with Hall, E.Kane, Benn and the list goes up.

2 problems with that is they can walk away at the young age of 26-27, and while you can extended a year earlier, you have to pay even more, since you are buying only UFA years, and if you want to trade them, the value for a guy 1 year away from UFA is less than a guy who is an RFA.

When Subban contract is up, he would still be 2 years away from being an UFA, so if he wants too much money, or doesn't want to sign long term, his value is alot higher than a guy who is set to be a UFA in a year, also you would be buying 2 RFA years if you want to sign him to a 6-8 year deal.

Now I wouldn't have had a problem if Bergevin signed Subban to a 8 year deal last summer and bought 4 UFA years on the deal, but to give him what he wanted which was a 5 year deal to only buy 1 UFA year would have been horrible IMO.

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06-10-2013, 06:26 PM
  #189
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The screw up is in your thinking, not MB's approach, but as always you think you're smarter than he is and would-of-could-of done it better.
I thought that was the premise of this board? Also, again, that's quite rich coming from you considering your attitude towards anything regarding Gainey and Gauthier, especially in relation to their love for Carey Price. Though I'm not surprised, I think I can count the amount of times you haven't attacked another poster in your posts on one hand.

Quote:
There are no below value signings, that's why these guys pay 5 percent to agents that know the market and where it's heading and who don't allow them into contracts that are low in value.

You think you have this all figured out that PK was ready to sign for a pittance a few months ago, he wasn't that's why he and management couldn't get a deal done. Now the course of action is set. He will get an extension after next year and get his fair value contract and the Habs are the better for it.
They couldn't get a deal done because as McKenzie reported, Subban wanted a 4.5m a year deal for 5 or 6 years while Bergevin wanted a 2 year bridge deal because he didn't feel like Subban had proven his ability yet. This has nothing to with being smarter than Bergevin. When the deal was signed, the Habs had the option of signing Subban long term at relatively low salary. Bergevin pushed his "bridge" deal. Now at the end of this contract we will probably need to sign Subban to a higher cap hit than what we could have signed him for.

For a GM who preaches the mentality of "every dollar counts", he sure didn't show much foresight in his handling of the Subban case.

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06-10-2013, 06:37 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I thought that was the premise of this board? Also, again, that's quite rich coming from you considering your attitude towards anything regarding Gainey and Gauthier, especially in relation to their love for Carey Price. Though I'm not surprised, I think I can count the amount of times you haven't attacked another poster in your posts on one hand.



They couldn't get a deal done because as McKenzie reported, Subban wanted a 4.5m a year deal for 5 or 6 years while Bergevin wanted a 2 year bridge deal because he didn't feel like Subban had proven his ability yet. This has nothing to with being smarter than Bergevin. When the deal was signed, the Habs had the option of signing Subban long term at relatively low salary. Bergevin pushed his "bridge" deal. Now at the end of this contract we will probably need to sign Subban to a higher cap hit than what we could have signed him for.

For a GM who preaches the mentality of "every dollar counts", he sure didn't show much foresight in his handling of the Subban case.
Bergevin is now going to get a deal signed that gets PK to age 30 , instead of 27, keeping him out of free agency at least 3 years and overall the money will be manageable over that time.

How's Tyler Myers 7 year deal looking to you right now?

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06-10-2013, 07:25 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Bergevin is now going to get a deal signed that gets PK to age 30 , instead of 27, keeping him out of free agency at least 3 years and overall the money will be manageable over that time.

How's Tyler Myers 7 year deal looking to you right now?
So are you saying that PK would not have been nominated or rumored to win the Norris had he signed a long term deal before the season?..
Is that what you convinced yourself of?

In any event, if the reasoning behind the deal was to get more UFA years out of PK, then you would make sense, but Bergevin never hinted once at that. He talked about trying to implement a salary structure to set a precedent, he talked about maturity and needing to see certain things from PK. Not a single rumor came out about this having anything to do with free agency years.
If that's what it's about then PK should be signed until his last RFA year and then re-signed.


Bergevin could have signed him for cheaper last year. No matter what the amount he's signed to, it would have been cheaper had he inked this deal before the season.
Is it so bad that it's going to affect us?? I don't think so, but still, he should have been signed long term already because he had already proven enough.

If Galchenyuk has back to back 80pt seasons, we won't need him to prove more things and so sign a bridge deal. There was no necessity for a bridge deal with PK.

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06-10-2013, 07:33 PM
  #192
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The bridging contract was (and still is), in my opinion, the right thing to do.

One of the toughest situations for Bergevin to handle as a brand new GM might have been the contract talks with stand-out defenseman P.K. Subban and his agent Don Meehan, a shrewd negotiator. While the jury is still out as to who was right or wrong, Bergevin ultimately got what he wanted, in signing his young talented player to a bridging two-year deal, which is a steal for this year and the next, especially that the salary cap is going down for the 2013-14 season. Further, to Bergevinís credit, he knew that Andrei Markovís $5.75M deal expires on time for Subbanís next contract, freeing up some much needed space.

http://www.allhabs.net/feature/whats...marc-bergevin/
And...

Speaking of Bergevin and his decisions, he wanted P.K. Subban to sign a bridge contract to prove what he could do. Subban held off for a long-term deal and ultimately, Bergevin got what he wanted. Opinions differ on whether or not Bergevin made the right decision or not, and there are very good points to debate either way, but it is my humble opinion that Bergevin made the right choice. Too often do we see young players getting their long-term lucrative contracts only to get a drop in production. Lightningís defenseman Matt Carle when from a 38-40 points guy down to 22 points last year after signing a contract which will pay him $5.5M per season until 2017-18. Ask Buffalo how they feel about Tyler Myersí contract/performance. Do you think that the Hurricanes are a bit concerned about giving Jeff Skinner a long term deal at $5.75M per season after his last season? The fact is that it gives Bergevin more time to see what Subban is all about. By the looks of things, it looks like the Norris candidate was a bargain last year and will be next year as well, when the salary cap goes down. We also know that by the time Subbanís next contract hits, Andrei Markovís contract will have expired. Itís a gamble that Bergevin was willing to take under the circumstance and I feel like it was the right decision.

Source: http://www.allhabs.net/all-habs-news...-roy-playoffs/

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06-10-2013, 07:46 PM
  #193
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it will cost a lot but we were doomed to pay that anyway. 7-8 year 6.5 avr

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06-10-2013, 07:52 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So are you saying that PK would not have been nominated or rumored to win the Norris had he signed a long term deal before the season?..
Is that what you convinced yourself of?


In any event, if the reasoning behind the deal was to get more UFA years out of PK, then you would make sense, but Bergevin never hinted once at that. He talked about trying to implement a salary structure to set a precedent, he talked about maturity and needing to see certain things from PK. Not a single rumor came out about this having anything to do with free agency years.
If that's what it's about then PK should be signed until his last RFA year and then re-signed.


Bergevin could have signed him for cheaper last year. No matter what the amount he's signed to, it would have been cheaper had he inked this deal before the season.
Is it so bad that it's going to affect us?? I don't think so, but still, he should have been signed long term already because he had already proven enough.

If Galchenyuk has back to back 80pt seasons, we won't need him to prove more things and so sign a bridge deal. There was no necessity for a bridge deal with PK.
What's good for Price, and Pacioretty, is good for Subban and Galchenyuk and anyone else who comes along. It's a good policy.

I have no idea if the bolded part is true, other than I don't make claims that this is true, all I know it's a reasonable policy that allows a player to prove himself before his big contract, and in this case the player came through for his team and himself.

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06-10-2013, 08:05 PM
  #195
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Bridge was a good idea.

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06-10-2013, 08:11 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
If he wants more then $6.5 per year, see you later.

Other teams are willing to pay him what he wants, let him go and find his pot of gold.
Any credible G.M. will not let a superstar franchise D man walk.

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06-10-2013, 08:14 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Subban was on the verge of breaking out, we all knew it (well most of us did). We had the opportunity to get him at a discount and we missed the boat
Evidence? Source?

If we all knew he was going to break don't you think he knew as well? Or was he going to sign for 5M per year just because he's stupid? Or to make the fan base happy.

Maybe PK and his team settled on the bridge deal vs the discount contract.

This isn't NHL 13. You can't just sign a player who you know will break out to an undervalued contract just becuse they haven't broken out yet.

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06-10-2013, 09:42 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
What's good for Price, and Pacioretty, is good for Subban and Galchenyuk and anyone else who comes along. It's a good policy.

I have no idea if the bolded part is true, other than I don't make claims that this is true, all I know it's a reasonable policy that allows a player to prove himself before his big contract, and in this case the player came through for his team and himself.
Aren't you one to often complain about Price's deal?? Pretty ironic..
So Price gets a bridge deal, plays decent (according to you), then signs a huge deal, and now you keep complaining about how he's overpaid.
How do you then go around calling it a good policy?? Kind of contradictory.
Shall we add on the extension to DD?
This was discussed ad nauseam and I can't believe I still have to bring this up again but Price and MaxPac had not proven anything close to what PK had when they signed their bridge deal. Not everybody is on the same level, that's such a kindergarten way of thinking.

Also, Bergevin wasn't the one signing Price and MaxPac to bridge deals. So whatever deal players signed before him don't mean squat.

You're pretty tough to follow here. On one hand you keep bringing up how we will be paying PK his fair value so you have no issues with it, and yet, Bergevin made PK miss the beginning of the season because he did not want to give PK fair value. PK was used as our #1 Dman since halfway through his rookie year, but our GM felt he deserved to be paid like a bottom pair one. Sure, totally makes sense.

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06-10-2013, 10:10 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
The bridging contract was (and still is), in my opinion, the right thing to do.

One of the toughest situations for Bergevin to handle as a brand new GM might have been the contract talks with stand-out defenseman P.K. Subban and his agent Don Meehan, a shrewd negotiator. While the jury is still out as to who was right or wrong, Bergevin ultimately got what he wanted, in signing his young talented player to a bridging two-year deal, which is a steal for this year and the next, especially that the salary cap is going down for the 2013-14 season. Further, to Bergevinís credit, he knew that Andrei Markovís $5.75M deal expires on time for Subbanís next contract, freeing up some much needed space.

http://www.allhabs.net/feature/whats...marc-bergevin/
And...

Speaking of Bergevin and his decisions, he wanted P.K. Subban to sign a bridge contract to prove what he could do. Subban held off for a long-term deal and ultimately, Bergevin got what he wanted. Opinions differ on whether or not Bergevin made the right decision or not, and there are very good points to debate either way, but it is my humble opinion that Bergevin made the right choice. Too often do we see young players getting their long-term lucrative contracts only to get a drop in production. Lightningís defenseman Matt Carle when from a 38-40 points guy down to 22 points last year after signing a contract which will pay him $5.5M per season until 2017-18. Ask Buffalo how they feel about Tyler Myersí contract/performance. Do you think that the Hurricanes are a bit concerned about giving Jeff Skinner a long term deal at $5.75M per season after his last season? The fact is that it gives Bergevin more time to see what Subban is all about. By the looks of things, it looks like the Norris candidate was a bargain last year and will be next year as well, when the salary cap goes down. We also know that by the time Subbanís next contract hits, Andrei Markovís contract will have expired. Itís a gamble that Bergevin was willing to take under the circumstance and I feel like it was the right decision.

Source: http://www.allhabs.net/all-habs-news...-roy-playoffs/
So what if Markov's contract will expire? The goal is to have PK and Markov, or find a replacement for Markov which won't come cheap.
And what if Markov has a great year next season? Then what? We'll just let him walk?
Why? Do we have a PP QB in the AHL I don't know about?
Subban just lead the NHL in PP pts with Markov right behind at second.
Together they rallied up 49pts. The next duo for PP production is Toronto with Phaneuf and Fransen with 29pts. Heck, PK almost had as many points as those two combined (26pts).
Markov can also be pretty good in his zone when he doesn't have to carry a scrub.
So, if he can remain healthy for the most part next year again, after another summer of training, and finally getting back to playing hockey, I don't see why he wouldn't have a good-great year. If that's the case then we'll want to re-sign him.

We have a pretty good one-two punch with PK and Markov.


And people have to start naming players as if the situations were similar.
Jeff Skinner scored more than 30 goals once, in his rookie year. He never even cracked the 60pt barrier. They had no reason to go this high with him.
But you really want to take Carolina management as an example? They signed Jordan Staal to 10y for 60M, the guy never scored more than 50pts! Shall we go into the Kaberle deal? Semin? E.Staal?

Myers had a rough sophomore year. He followed it up with another disappointing season while missing almost 30 games. He gets awarded a long term deal.

Not sure how those situations resemble PK who took over the #1 Dman spot pretty much since halfway through his rookie year. The kid had been anything short of impressive and great. Sure, a few issues as with any other player, but still amazing nonetheless and there was no reason to doubt this was going to change.
Knowing his impressive leaps in progression ever since the junior days, and his work ethic both during games, in practice and off the ice, I don't see why anybody would have doubts about this guy.
So really, we're not talking about a player who's coming back from two rather disappointing seasons here..

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06-10-2013, 11:00 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Hansman View Post
Any credible G.M. will not let a superstar franchise D man walk.
Why not? We'll get more back in return and it's only marginal franchises that have to suck on player's toes like Poile did in Nashville (and how did that work out for him?).

I'm not talking about low-balling Subban, I'm talking about fair compensation for his services. If that's not good enough for our young superstar, he can take a hike.

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