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Subban and that bridge contract..(what to expect with his next extension)

View Poll Results: Bridge contract
Bridge contract was a smart deal. It was a good move for both parties 107 54.04%
Should have signed him long term (likely cheaper) when we had the chance. Bit of a blunder by MB. 91 45.96%
Voters: 198. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-10-2013, 11:14 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So what if Markov's contract will expire? The goal is to have PK and Markov, or find a replacement for Markov which won't come cheap.
And what if Markov has a great year next season? Then what? We'll just let him walk?
Why? Do we have a PP QB in the AHL I don't know about?
Subban just lead the NHL in PP pts with Markov right behind at second.
Together they rallied up 49pts. The next duo for PP production is Toronto with Phaneuf and Fransen with 29pts. Heck, PK almost had as many points as those two combined (26pts).
Markov can also be pretty good in his zone when he doesn't have to carry a scrub.
So, if he can remain healthy for the most part next year again, after another summer of training, and finally getting back to playing hockey, I don't see why he wouldn't have a good-great year. If that's the case then we'll want to re-sign him.

We have a pretty good one-two punch with PK and Markov.


And people have to start naming players as if the situations were similar.
Jeff Skinner scored more than 30 goals once, in his rookie year. He never even cracked the 60pt barrier. They had no reason to go this high with him.
But you really want to take Carolina management as an example? They signed Jordan Staal to 10y for 60M, the guy never scored more than 50pts! Shall we go into the Kaberle deal? Semin? E.Staal?

Myers had a rough sophomore year. He followed it up with another disappointing season while missing almost 30 games. He gets awarded a long term deal.

Not sure how those situations resemble PK who took over the #1 Dman spot pretty much since halfway through his rookie year. The kid had been anything short of impressive and great. Sure, a few issues as with any other player, but still amazing nonetheless and there was no reason to doubt this was going to change.
Knowing his impressive leaps in progression ever since the junior days, and his work ethic both during games, in practice and off the ice, I don't see why anybody would have doubts about this guy.
So really, we're not talking about a player who's coming back from two rather disappointing seasons here..
A couple of things...

1- Why would Markov's replacement have to cost as much as he does? Subban doesn't cost as much as Markov and he's better than him! Is it remotely possible that one of Beaulieu or Ellis could surprise and step into that role, the way Subban did?

2- You're very quick at finding excuses about the players that I've mentioned but what they all had in common is that after a good start to their career, their GM skipped the bridging contract and, at the same time, removed their motivation, and they crapped to bed after. Bergevin didn't make that mistake.

I happen to think that the fact that Bergevin held his own in this deal contributed to Subban's motivation in him having a Norris Trophy worthy season and one would be hard pressed debating against that. Next year, the motivation will be even higher because he'll want to prove that this year wasn't a fluke and he'll be playing for a new contract... all of that with a cap hit of $2.875M !!! Not too stupid that Bergevin.

But as I've stated before, there are good points on both sides. I genuinely feel like the positives of the bridging contract outweigh the negative.

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06-10-2013, 11:29 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Aren't you one to often complain about Price's deal?? Pretty ironic..
So Price gets a bridge deal, plays decent (according to you), then signs a huge deal, and now you keep complaining about how he's overpaid.
How do you then go around calling it a good policy?? Kind of contradictory.
Shall we add on the extension to DD?
This was discussed ad nauseam and I can't believe I still have to bring this up again but Price and MaxPac had not proven anything close to what PK had when they signed their bridge deal. Not everybody is on the same level, that's such a kindergarten way of thinking.

Also, Bergevin wasn't the one signing Price and MaxPac to bridge deals. So whatever deal players signed before him don't mean squat.

You're pretty tough to follow here. On one hand you keep bringing up how we will be paying PK his fair value so you have no issues with it, and yet, Bergevin made PK miss the beginning of the season because he did not want to give PK fair value. PK was used as our #1 Dman since halfway through his rookie year, but our GM felt he deserved to be paid like a bottom pair one. Sure, totally makes sense.
Are you really this thick? This makes no sense. The policy doesn't guarantee that players perform up to their contract, it just gives a framework for managing the commitment between the player and the organization. The framework goes A-B-C, entry level, mid level, then full compensation with financial security built in.

Price has a spotty record in terms of providing good value to the club, Subban has always played to his contract. Doesn't mean the policy is bad, it means the organization takes on risk by treating their young top line drafted players in a consistent fashion.

If Price ***** the bed for 2 years it shouldn't change the policy of A-B-C, if Subban gets 8 more Norris trophies same thing. The policy forms a consistent way to deal with the athletes.

IMO , this is a great way to build loyalty in an organization that has now proclaimed itself development focused.

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06-10-2013, 11:48 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Are you really this thick? This makes no sense. The policy doesn't guarantee that players perform up to their contract, it just gives a framework for managing the commitment between the player and the organization. The framework goes A-B-C, entry level, mid level, then full compensation with financial security built in.

Price has a spotty record in terms of providing good value to the club, Subban has always played to his contract. Doesn't mean the policy is bad, it means the organization takes on risk by treating their young top line drafted players in a consistent fashion.

If Price ***** the bed for 2 years it shouldn't change the policy of A-B-C, if Subban gets 8 more Norris trophies same thing. The policy forms a consistent way to deal with the athletes.

IMO , this is a great way to build loyalty in an organization that has now proclaimed itself development focused.
Price wanted the bridge contract, Gauthier wanted to sign him to a longer deal because that's what a smart GM would do. Price was willing to take a bridge contract and wait for the big payday and he got it. It isn't the same situation as Bergevin and Subban.

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06-11-2013, 12:02 AM
  #204
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I'd give Subban a 7 year with a 6,5 million AAV without even thinking twice.

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06-11-2013, 12:04 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Price wanted the bridge contract, Gauthier wanted to sign him to a longer deal because that's what a smart GM would do. Price was willing to take a bridge contract and wait for the big payday and he got it. It isn't the same situation as Bergevin and Subban.
I honestly don't recall this aspect of the negotiations, but regardless there are 2 differences:

1) That was Gauthier, this is Bergevin's policy.
2) Gauthier was stupid to the point that he performed negotiations backwards, trading the proven, winning, popular Halak BEFORE negotiating with the Price camp.

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06-11-2013, 12:15 AM
  #206
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Meanwhile Poile signs Josi to a 4m deal for 7 years.... Sleepy Bergy

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06-11-2013, 12:21 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I honestly don't recall this aspect of the negotiations, but regardless there are 2 differences:

1) That was Gauthier, this is Bergevin's policy.
2) Gauthier was stupid to the point that he performed negotiations backwards, trading the proven, winning, popular Halak BEFORE negotiating with the Price camp.
Gauthier wins on both points, he had no interest in keeping Halak, playing games like that is just wrong, taking into account the long-term view of what's best for the club.

There is a mega bias in the way you choose to see the world. Everything Bergevin does is all wonderful, warm and fuzzy and everything Gauthier did was evil and stupid and reality isn't that way at all.

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06-11-2013, 12:36 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Gauthier wins on both points, he had no interest in keeping Halak, playing games like that is just wrong, taking into account the long-term view of what's best for the club.

There is a mega bias in the way you choose to see the world. Everything Bergevin does is all wonderful, warm and fuzzy and everything Gauthier did was evil and stupid and reality isn't that way at all.
Bergevin has a clear slate and has stated a coherent vision he has time to alienate me and other fans, Gauthier had a chance and he absolutely sucked at all the positions he held in Montreal.

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06-11-2013, 02:55 AM
  #209
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I like the bridge contract thing, not because of what it will cost or save regarding Subban (it will cost more), but because it sets an example for every single negociation the Habs will have with the Gallys and other good young players. Not every young player will become a Norris or a Hart, and if Bergvein can work that way with PK, he'll be able to do so with anybody. Every player will have to demonstrate, and not with one good season, that he can be a dominant player in the NHL. Hence, no mega deal after two years in the league, a la Hall / Eberle. Those are the bad contracts. You have a young player, and still pay him like a seasoned vet who already achieved big things. It kills your salary structure.

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06-11-2013, 06:53 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Why not? We'll get more back in return and it's only marginal franchises that have to suck on player's toes like Poile did in Nashville (and how did that work out for him?).

I'm not talking about low-balling Subban, I'm talking about fair compensation for his services. If that's not good enough for our young superstar, he can take a hike.
Why not? Well,these type of defenceman dont grow on trees.
Remember Mc Donough, Chelios...don't want that to happen again.Our D is porous as it is,don't need to make it worse.

Doughty bent L.A. over during negotiations but their team is better with him not without.

I prefer to have the Habs with P.K. ,not without.

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06-11-2013, 06:54 AM
  #211
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Meanwhile Poile signs Josi to a 4m deal for 7 years.... Sleepy Bergy
like P.K. would accept 7 years @ 4 Mil/year...

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06-11-2013, 08:30 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
A couple of things...

1- Why would Markov's replacement have to cost as much as he does? Subban doesn't cost as much as Markov and he's better than him! Is it remotely possible that one of Beaulieu or Ellis could surprise and step into that role, the way Subban did?

2- You're very quick at finding excuses about the players that I've mentioned but what they all had in common is that after a good start to their career, their GM skipped the bridging contract and, at the same time, removed their motivation, and they crapped to bed after. Bergevin didn't make that mistake.

I happen to think that the fact that Bergevin held his own in this deal contributed to Subban's motivation in him having a Norris Trophy worthy season and one would be hard pressed debating against that. Next year, the motivation will be even higher because he'll want to prove that this year wasn't a fluke and he'll be playing for a new contract... all of that with a cap hit of $2.875M !!! Not too stupid that Bergevin.

But as I've stated before, there are good points on both sides. I genuinely feel like the positives of the bridging contract outweigh the negative.
1-No, I am not relying on Ellis or Beaulieu to come in and just replace Markov, especially not on the PP. Is there a chance they'd be able to? Maybe, but I'm not counting on it. Not until they can start showing things in the NHL.
So chances are his replacement would come from outside the organization and looking at what Gonchar got signed to, I don't think it would be cheap. We are better off re-signing him.


2- Excuses? How can you compare two players but not look at their progression, production or their organization's bad habits?? What's important when making those comparisons is that those guys didn't deserve the big contract. They both just had successful rookie years, it's not the same as PK.
If you're gonna make a comparison then look at everything not just what works in your favor.


3- Of course you believe that, it's the only way anybody can support MB's decision. But when you look at PK's progression over the years dating back to juniors, then you know money doesn't drive PK. The guy just learns quickly and he's a work horse. Have you not seen PK do interviews? Or seen his off ice training? Kid gets into fights with teammates durin practice because he battles too hard. There's really no reason to think this kid would just sit back and chill out on a big contract. If he did, I wouldn't be hearing about how he wants to be the best Dman in the NHL or how he wants to be a true leader. Money doesn't put this mindset.

I guess we'll see, if all PK wanted was that big deal, then bridge or not bridge, we should see him regress when he gets it.


Last edited by Kriss E: 06-11-2013 at 08:45 AM.
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06-11-2013, 08:41 AM
  #213
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Let's see the next deal before deciding.

I mostly didn't like the bridge deal only because it deprived us of Subban at the start of the season (and seemed to lead to an unnecessary "easing-in" phase on the 3rd pairing). They could have signed a slightly better deal sooner and we'd have had more Subban. He would have won the Norris if he had been there and used as #1 right from the start, after all.

But the bridge helps us for the lowered cap next season, and could give us more years of Subban if the next deal goes to the max. We'll see what the total numbers end up being. Subban as a two-time Norris winner should get some big $$$.

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06-11-2013, 08:42 AM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
1-No, I am not relying on Ellis or Beaulieu to come in and just replace Markov, especially not on the PP. Is there a chance they'd be able to? Maybe, but I'm not counting on it. Not until they can start showing things in the NHL.
So chances are his replacement would come from outside the organization and looking at what Gonchar got signed to, I don't think it would be cheap. We are better off re-signing him.


2- Excuses? How can you compare two players but not look at their progression, production or their organization's bad habits?? What's important when making those comparisons is that those guys didn't deserve the big contract. They both just had successful rookie years, it's not the same as PK.
If you're gonna make a comparison then look at everything not just what works in your favor.


3- Of course you believe that, it's the only way anybody can support MB's decision. But when you look at PK's progression over the years dating back to juniors, then you know money doesn't drive PK. The guy just learns quickly and he's a work horse. Have you not seen PK do interviews? Or seen his off ice training? Kid gets into fights with teammates durin practice because he battles too hard. There's really no reason to think this kid would just sit back and chill out on a big contract. If he did, I wouldn't be hearing about how he wants to be the best Dman in the NHL or how he wants to be a true leader. Money doesn't put this mindset .

I guess we'll see, if all PK wanted was that big deal, then bridge or not bridge, then we should see him regress when he gets it.
wrong. I'm fine with MB decision and I don't think P.K. will become lazy or anything when he'll get a huge contract... and i'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

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06-11-2013, 09:48 AM
  #215
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Does Subban not have arbitration rights after this "bridge" contract expires?

After one year on an arbitration award, he is 27, and an UNrestricted free-agent.

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06-11-2013, 10:32 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Naoned View Post
I like the bridge contract thing, not because of what it will cost or save regarding Subban (it will cost more), but because it sets an example for every single negociation the Habs will have with the Gallys and other good young players. Not every young player will become a Norris or a Hart, and if Bergvein can work that way with PK, he'll be able to do so with anybody. Every player will have to demonstrate, and not with one good season, that he can be a dominant player in the NHL. Hence, no mega deal after two years in the league, a la Hall / Eberle. Those are the bad contracts. You have a young player, and still pay him like a seasoned vet who already achieved big things. It kills your salary structure.
If the Gallys produce they will want Hall/Eberle deals regardless of what Subban accepted. What happens then, do you really want to see the Gallys holdout because we refuse to pay them what they are worth?

Maybe Subban is willing to sign long term anyways we will have to wait and see, but as someone else pointed out, all he has to do is go to arbitration take a 1 year 7m award and become a UFA. What Bergevin did could easily sour a player on the team, I hope we don't see negotiations like that again.

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06-11-2013, 10:50 AM
  #217
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Does Subban not have arbitration rights after this "bridge" contract expires?

After one year on an arbitration award, he is 27, and an UNrestricted free-agent.
I'd rather trade him then go the arbitration route.

I don't see any scenario where Montreal isn't going to offer him a fair contract based on his worth to the team and if they are that far out on their numbers it's better to move on without him.

There are some stats on what happens when a team takes a player to arbitration and the odds the player is playing for the same team in a few years is very, very slim. The relationship for all intents and purposes, is broken and it's not going to be repaired.

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06-11-2013, 10:51 AM
  #218
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I have no problems with the way Bergevin negotiated Subban's bridge deal and the fact that it will now likely cost him more then it would have had he signed him to a long term deal earlier this year (say 5yrs @5M for example).

The only issue I had was I wished they had done it sooner so he didn't miss any games

The Habs will re-sign Subban next year and yes, it will be more then what it would have cost in the long run. But there's nothing wrong with rewarding a player for earning his raise.

Bergevin's essentially just made it more difficult for him to do his job in the future, but that's HIS challenge as a GM. He's going to have to find a way to make it work, and usually what happens whatever excess he'll end up paying Subban 1yr from now, will be offset by some other transactions that he'll do along the way.

Managing the salary cap is like putting a puzzle together, some GM's are better at it then others...

Fans tend to look at the salary cap with blinders on and only focusing on the immediate or even, just part of the picture. While the best GM's look at the salary cap like a landscape.

Settle down fellas...it really means little if Subban will be making 7M a year after next year as opposed to 5M a year.

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06-11-2013, 11:04 AM
  #219
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I'd rather trade him then go the arbitration route.

I don't see any scenario where Montreal isn't going to offer him a fair contract based on his worth to the team and if they are that far out on their numbers it's better to move on without him.

There are some stats on what happens when a team takes a player to arbitration and the odds the player is playing for the same team in a few years is very, very slim. The relationship for all intents and purposes, is broken and it's not going to be repaired.
Given the importance of Subban to this team, the possibility of this scenario
is an argument against the "bridge" contract. Especially since it was forced on
Subban, with the short season already disappearing. I don't think he wanted
to go 18 months without playing hockey.

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06-11-2013, 11:07 AM
  #220
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I thought that was the premise of this board? Also, again, that's quite rich coming from you considering your attitude towards anything regarding Gainey and Gauthier, especially in relation to their love for Carey Price. Though I'm not surprised, I think I can count the amount of times you haven't attacked another poster in your posts on one hand.



They couldn't get a deal done because as McKenzie reported, Subban wanted a 4.5m a year deal for 5 or 6 years while Bergevin wanted a 2 year bridge deal because he didn't feel like Subban had proven his ability yet. This has nothing to with being smarter than Bergevin. When the deal was signed, the Habs had the option of signing Subban long term at relatively low salary. Bergevin pushed his "bridge" deal. Now at the end of this contract we will probably need to sign Subban to a higher cap hit than what we could have signed him for.

For a GM who preaches the mentality of "every dollar counts", he sure didn't show much foresight in his handling of the Subban case.
Anyone thinknig Subban was looking for 4-4.5, for 6 years is out of touch. This was never the dollar amount PK was looking for. You think he's completely unaware of his own worth? Cmon guys, I didn't like the bridge deal as I thought it was stupid to handcuff yourself to a one-size fits all approach, but we don't need to make up numbers to validate our opinions. No one knows for sure, but I am reasonably confident that 4.5m for 6 years would have never flew for PK's camp, zero chance of happening.

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06-11-2013, 11:09 AM
  #221
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Anyone thinknig Subban was looking for 4-4.5, for 6 years is out of touch. This was never the dollar amount PK was looking for. You think he's completely unaware of his own worth? Cmon guys, I didn't like the bridge deal as I thought it was stupid to handcuff yourself to a one-size fits all approach, but we don't need to make up numbers to validate our opinions. No one knows for sure, but I am reasonably confident that 4.5m for 6 years would have never flew for PK's camp, zero chance of happening.
Making up numbers? These are numbers Bob McKenzie threw out...not me.

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06-11-2013, 11:11 AM
  #222
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Making up numbers? These are numbers Bob McKenzie threw out...not me.
Bobby mac needs to stop making up numbers then!

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06-11-2013, 11:12 AM
  #223
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wrong. I'm fine with MB decision and I don't think P.K. will become lazy or anything when he'll get a huge contract... and i'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
Well then there's no reason to think he wouldn't have performed as a Norris type had he sign a bigger deal either.

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06-11-2013, 11:15 AM
  #224
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Well then there's no reason to think he wouldn't have performed as a Norris type had he sign a bigger deal either.
True.

In fact this Norris type season is what many observers expected of him,
regardless of contract status.


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06-11-2013, 11:18 AM
  #225
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Making up numbers? These are numbers Bob McKenzie threw out...not me.
Do you remember all the rumours flown about that he was asking for Shea Weber money, they outnumbered the 4.5 by two to one, btw, I think you're confusing what Bobby Mac said. It was the number being thrown about on a short term deal, to buy UFA years this wasn't even in the ball park imo.

Picking and choosing which numbers of all the rumours being thrown about just because they seem to support your opinion isn't an argument. Bobby Mac wasn't involved in negotiations to my knowledge. Most of the reports were speculation.

I'll ask you again, do you think Subban and his agent were completely oblivious to his worth? We all knew he was gonna break out, but they had no idea? If he signed 6 years at 4.5million it would have been one of the worst decisions ever made by a player and agent.

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