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OT: MLB seeks to suspend ~20, including A-Rod, Braun (Performance-enhancing Drugs))

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Old
06-05-2013, 10:11 PM
  #26
Fugu
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Originally Posted by dotcommunism View Post
Pretty much all of this is circumstantial or speculation. There's nothing in there that's actually evidence. Furthermore the idea that we can assume someone would've hit X home runs without steroids (or whatever) and therefore discount a certain number as being "because of steroids" is not grounded in any sort of empirical evidence or data.

That may or may not be true, but why dope then?

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06-05-2013, 10:20 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by NickWIHockey View Post
no evidence againsts bonds, well lets consider that's bonds head grew larger post 1998, and he went from a skinny guy in his pirates day to living breathing tanks. was he a great player pre-peds? Yes and likely a HOFer. he likely ends up around 500 homers without the juice, which prior to the steroid era was a one-way ticket to cooperstown. but he goes on the juice and starts putting up numbers straight out of videogames. 73 hrs when the previous record was 61 set more than 50 years earlier.
Actually he broke a record that wasn't even 5 years old. And regardless, aesthetic differences don't make proof.

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06-05-2013, 10:50 PM
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http://www.upi.com/Sports_News/2013/...1381370453225/

MLBPA says they have not been informed by MLB of any player suspensions.


(yet)

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06-05-2013, 11:08 PM
  #29
dotcommunism
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
That may or may not be true, but why dope then?
Athletes will do things that they think give them an advantage, regardless of whether they actually do or not. Furthermore, I never said steroids didn't give players an advantage, however it is unclear if they do, and if they do then how they do. Even then whatever impact they may have is not currently quantifiable in any way based on empirical data.

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06-05-2013, 11:41 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Why do you say that? I don't generally follow baseball, but isn't one issue that Braun denied any use (and thus avoided suspension earlier)?
Braun denied his use publicly, but his legal defense had nothing to do with alleging a faulty test but rather than the chain of custody and the collection procedures weren't followed. Braun admitted that the sample was not tainted and it was his urine being tested, but because the sample wasn't sent to Fed-Ex as soon as possible, the test couldn't be counted against him.

The collector made an honest mistake in terms of when to send in the sample. That mistake did not affect the results of the test, nor compromise the integrity of the sample, however because the letter of the testing agreement wasn't followed, Braun got off on appeal.

It was the equivalent of police searching a car, finding a bunch of drugs and a guy saying "yea that was my car and no one else ever had access to it, but it was an illegal search so I get off scott free"

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06-06-2013, 12:15 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dotcommunism View Post
Athletes will do things that they think give them an advantage, regardless of whether they actually do or not. Furthermore, I never said steroids didn't give players an advantage, however it is unclear if they do, and if they do then how they do. Even then whatever impact they may have is not currently quantifiable in any way based on empirical data.

Considering the mess in the pro cycling, if people really believed that doping of various forms didn't help, it was a lot of hoopla over nothing.

I will disagree with you overarching statement. There is medical and scientific evidence as to specifically what benefits athletes receive from specific drugs and biological products (like EPO). If all of a sudden you discover that the only guys winning or breaking records indeed are doping, that should tell us something.

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06-06-2013, 12:39 AM
  #32
dotcommunism
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Considering the mess in the pro cycling, if people really believed that doping of various forms didn't help, it was a lot of hoopla over nothing.

I will disagree with you overarching statement. There is medical and scientific evidence as to specifically what benefits athletes receive from specific drugs and biological products (like EPO). If all of a sudden you discover that the only guys winning or breaking records indeed are doping, that should tell us something.
Obviously there are effects of these drugs, but how those translate to helping someone do things like "hit a baseball" is pretty inconclusive

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06-06-2013, 12:53 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by dotcommunism View Post
Obviously there are effects of these drugs, but how those translate to helping someone do things like "hit a baseball" is pretty inconclusive

You make it sound like the only benefit could be a placebo effect.


If I have time, I'll hunt up some papers.

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06-06-2013, 12:56 AM
  #34
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Steroids make your swing much harder. You still have to be a good player if steroids would make a difference, because you still have to be good enough to make perfect contact with the ball.

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06-06-2013, 01:06 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by dotcommunism View Post
I never said steroids didn't give players an advantage, however it is unclear if they do, and if they do then how they do.
You cannot be serious.... of course anabolic steroids, growth hormones & blood thinners give athletes an advantage. Widely documented, proven irrefutably... like Hello, Ben Johnson? But one of countless dozens of cheaters... stripped of his medals, records erased from the books, disgraced.... winds up being hired by Muammar Gaddafi to Coach his son Al-Saadi who aspires to play pro soccer in Italy... kid gets cut after the first practice for testing positive for drugs... Good job there Ben... then on his way back from Libya claims to have been robbed by a Gang of Roma Gypsys in a stopover in Rome of $7300... gave chase, but couldnt catch them.... returns home to Ontario where he takes up residence in his mothers basement... spending his leisure hours reading comics & watching Roadrunner Cartoons.... came out with a line of leisure wear, the Ben Johnson Collection in 2004 called Catch Me.... it never took off.... on & on... steroids are absolutely performance enhancing. What on earth would give you cause to suggest they're not?

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06-06-2013, 02:14 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by dotcommunism View Post
Obviously there are effects of these drugs, but how those translate to helping someone do things like "hit a baseball" is pretty inconclusive
Well, setting aside the home run hitting inflation, four of Bonds' top five batting average seasons happened at the age of 36-39, after he started his steroid regimen. That would empirically suggest that the PEDs helped him hit a baseball better in my opinion.

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06-06-2013, 02:16 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Considering the mess in the pro cycling, if people really believed that doping of various forms didn't help, it was a lot of hoopla over nothing.
PEDs work. Anybody even hinting otherwise is kidding themselves.

It's long, but here's a hell of a story about an amateur who, under medical supervision, decided to try a variety of PEDs to see what they did.

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It had taken me a while to arrive at this moment. I was sitting in the San Fernando Valley offices of a physician whose identity I’ve agreed to conceal—let’s just call him Dr. Jones. For reasons I’ll explain shortly, my goal was to experience firsthand some of the banned performance-enhancing drugs that are often abused in the endurance sports I participate in, like cycling and cross-country skiing. The menu I had in mind included human growth hormone (HGH), testosterone, and some variety of anabolic steroid, all of which are used to increase strength and shorten an athlete’s recovery time by repairing muscle cells faster.
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2009/11/dr...utionary-tale/

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My plan was simple. I would train as I always do—about 15 to 20 hours a week—while taking various supplements under Dr. Jones’s supervision. I started in January 2003. In eight months, I intended to ride the 1,225-kilometer (761-mile) Paris-Brest-Paris bicycle race, a once-every-four-years sufferfest that’s popular among amateur ultracyclists. I would first have to qualify by completing a series of 200-, 300-, 400-, and 600-kilometer rides within certain time limits. The PBP was a quirky event, a ride rather than a real race, with no prizes, no ranking of finishers, no doping controls. So if the drugs helped me, I wouldn’t be knocking anybody else down in the standings. And since this was a monster ride—which I’d have to complete in less than 84 hours—it would serve as a real test of my augmented self.
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IT WASN’T UNTIL I ADDED EPO to my diet, two weeks later, that I began to notice serious differences.

...

After the EPO kicked in, I rode a 200-miler and I felt strong, fresh, ready to hammer. The next day I easily could have ridden another 200. It all started to make sense: recovering this fast would be a huge advantage in a stage race like the Tour de France.
Quote:
ONCE I STARTED THE DECA, I didn’t even think about lifting weights. I wanted to get stronger, not bigger. Within two weeks, the pain I felt in my left knee after 100 miles or so—100 was now just a standard ride—went away, coming back only on the most brutal hills. My shoulder felt much better. And then one morning I stepped on the scale.

Two hundred and nine pounds.

I was stunned. I’d never weighed this much. When I first saw Dr. Jones, I weighed 195, which was high for me.

...

“What’s the problem?” Dr. Jones demanded when I told him I was freaking out over the weight gain. He had me stand on a machine that measured body weight and fat. I weighed 207, but my body fat had dropped to 6.5 percent, down from 10 percent.

“Don’t give me this you’re-getting-fat crap,” he said in an exasperated tone. “You sound like some teenage girl. You’ve lost six pounds of fat and gained 12 of muscle. That’s why you’re heavier.


Last edited by Dado: 06-06-2013 at 02:28 AM.
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Old
06-06-2013, 11:20 AM
  #38
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There is no debate over whether PEDs work. Certain PEDs are better for certain sports.
In baseball being stronger and being able to swing the bat quicker are huge advantages. Baseball and tennis have long histories of players using amphetamines to heighten their reflexes and concentration. Any sport that relies on ultra-precise hand-eye coordination will benefit from that. It's the same reason the military gives fighter pilots amphetamines.

Some PEDs are better for strength, others for endurance, others for hand-eye coordination and reflexes, others for aggression.

A huge part of PEDs is allowing the athlete to train longer and harder than before. This allows building up more muscle mass, but it also allows more time to master skills. Many/most sports skills benefit from repetition.

Faster recovery allows more weight training and more skill training.

Personally I have no problem with PEDs and think they should be legal but public and monitored for safety. As it is elite athletes largely have won the genetic lottery where they have a genetic advantage. There's no moral reason why an athlete with inferior genes shouldn't be able to supplement with PEDs.

We don't need to eliminate PEDs as much as we need to make them safer so they can be used to boost performance without sacrificing long term health.

We like to imagine that training and nutrition and hard work are what make elite athletes elite. That's a huge part -- but first you have to win the genetic lottery. The training, nutrition, and hard work mainly separate you from others with elite genetic capability.

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06-06-2013, 06:38 PM
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http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=424901

Subpoenas issued.

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06-10-2013, 10:53 AM
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For those interested in the legal angles of this story:

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In late March, baseball sued Biogenesis, Bosch and six other company officials for intentionally interfering with players' contracts. The legal theory was novel: the clinic and its employees induced players into buying prohibited PEDs, thereby breaching their employment contracts. In exchange for agreeing to cooperate with baseball, MLB will reportedly drop Bosch from its lawsuit, indemnify him for any costs associated with his cooperation and defend his character should he face criminal charges.
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If baseball suspends these players based mainly on Bosch's assertions, expect a swift legal challenge by the players' association. The challenge would be raised before an arbitration panel, where rules of evidence and procedure are not as stringent as those at trial.
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In addition to attacking the quality of Bosch's testimony, the players' association can challenge the legal right of baseball to sanction players implicated by Bosch. To date, baseball has only suspended major league players for PEDs when they test positive. Under the Joint Drug Agreement, however, baseball can also suspend a player for participating in the sale or distribution of a prohibited substance. The players' association would likely insist Bosch's statements are dubious and not yet sufficiently-substantiated to warrant punishment.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb...sis/index.html

The article also addresses the question of 100 game suspensions, voiding contracts, and defamation.

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06-10-2013, 11:10 AM
  #41
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Bonds is a victim of MLBs witchhunt of PED users. They picked him and Clemens, two of the greatest players of all time, PEDs or not, and decided to blame them for the steroid era.

It's not a witchhunt when you go after the two people who gained THE MOST by doping.

Can you even really call it a witchhunt when the targets are so laughably guilty of the offense they are charged with?

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06-10-2013, 11:21 AM
  #42
Nullus Reverentia
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Originally Posted by King_Stannis View Post
It's not a witchhunt when you go after the two people who gained THE MOST by doping.

Can you even really call it a witchhunt when the targets are so laughably guilty of the offense they are charged with?
It is a witchhunt because Selig and MLB were so frustrated that they couldn't get Braun and Rodriguez when they were actually doing it that they're going after them when they have no physical evidence. And they're brining nearly two dozen other players with them.

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06-10-2013, 10:51 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by King_Stannis View Post
It's not a witchhunt when you go after the two people who gained THE MOST by doping.

Can you even really call it a witchhunt when the targets are so laughably guilty of the offense they are charged with?
Who are you to say what players benefited most from PEDs? Bonds was already one of the greatest players ever before he started taking steroids.

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06-11-2013, 12:14 AM
  #44
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even granted bonds was a great player, who likely would be in Cooperstown without the peds, it gave him, already a great athlete, and on the elite end of that, a huge advantage. it became almost impossible to strike him out, he broke longstanding records for intentional walks because no pitcher wanted any part of him. did I mention this was during his later 30s where power and hitting usually decline drastically? yes there are exceptions to that, but to have the best hitting seasons of your career in your late 30s isn't natural. to use a comparison, the ncaa struck every win Paterno had from 1998 due to the Sandusky mess. he went from 409 wins to 298. so if we struck all the home runs from bonds from 1998 onward, due to using peds, that's 388 homers you have to knock off, so instead of 762 he would have 374 homers.

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Old
06-11-2013, 12:31 AM
  #45
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How convenient that A-Rod career is on the downward spiral and this come out now. You know when he less profitable and marketable to baseball and the Yankees while still being own a crapload of cash.

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06-11-2013, 02:57 AM
  #46
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well the contracts of arod and pujols were stupid on many levels to begin with. no baseball player is worth 300 million over 10 years. while [jols had the best decade to start a career ever, hes clearly in decline noe. hes not the most feared hitter in baseball anymore, and he turned down a chance to be the next "stan the Man' in St Louis to cash 250 million with the angeks- who, do I ned to mention, stink

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