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Trading Up Part II: The Midnight Barkov

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Old
06-11-2013, 12:02 PM
  #51
Jame
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
What about Lindholm?


I'm really liking what I've read on him.
I have Lindholm 5, Risto 6... They are the 2 players I want at #8 (assuming a trade up does not happen to get to the top 4.

i flipped back and forth on them... they are interchangeable at 5 and 6, along with Barkov at 4..... just super complete players, in pro leagues, playing at very high levels in those leagues.

I've read that Risto has confirmed he's coming over immediately. He's NHL ready.

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06-11-2013, 12:02 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I have Lindholm 5, Risto 6... They are the 2 players I want at #8 (assuming a trade up does not happen to get to the top 4.

i flipped back and forth on them... they are interchangeable at 5 and 6, along with Barkov at 4..... just super complete players, in pro leagues, playing at very high levels in those leagues.

I've read that Risto has confirmed he's coming over immediately. He's NHL ready.
On that front, wasn't there a report that Lindholm was going to play one more season overseas before coming over?

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06-11-2013, 12:03 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
On that front, wasn't there a report that Lindholm was going to play one more season overseas?
He has 1 year left on the contract, but there is a transfer agreement.... i haven't read anything that stated he was staying or coming yet.

dude... Risto is so ****ing money... i think in any other draft year, he'd be a potential #1.

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06-11-2013, 12:05 PM
  #54
Rowley Birkin
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I have Lindholm 5, Risto 6... They are the 2 players I want at #8 (assuming a trade up does not happen to get to the top 4.

i flipped back and forth on them... they are interchangeable at 5 and 6, along with Barkov at 4..... just super complete players, in pro leagues, playing at very high levels in those leagues.

I've read that Risto has confirmed he's coming over immediately. He's NHL ready.
This isn't a shot at you, but I think you over rate the whole 'playing in a mens league/nhl ready' arguement'.

They aren't getting these guys for next season.

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06-11-2013, 12:05 PM
  #55
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I really think the guys Darcy is targeting with his trade up talk are the guys Jame keeps advocating for (Barkov, Lindholm and Risto). Meaning he needs to get into the 4-7 spots to make that happen.

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06-11-2013, 12:06 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LegomyLeggio View Post
Huh?

I'm saying that I wouldn't trade up and would trade down depending on how the board falls.

No time machine needed.
In your original post you were discussing "trading up vs down" and then said you wanted to wait till the first seven picks to happen. But if you just sit there until 8, then obviously it's too late to trade up. Perhaps you just picked a really weird way to say you don't want to trade up at all?

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06-11-2013, 12:07 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Rowley Birkin View Post
This isn't a shot at you, but I think you over rate the whole 'playing in a mens league/nhl ready' arguement'.

They aren't getting these guys for next season.

I think the point he's making is they are already playing well as 17/ 18 year olds against men in a league 1 level below the NHL. As opposed to the top junior players who are dominating teenagers in a league two levels below the NHL.

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06-11-2013, 12:08 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Rowley Birkin View Post
This isn't a shot at you, but I think you over rate the whole 'playing in a mens league/nhl ready' arguement'.

They aren't getting these guys for next season.
says who?

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06-11-2013, 12:09 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I think the point he's making is they are already playing well as 17/ 18 year olds against men in a league 1 level below the NHL. As opposed to the top junior players who are dominating teenagers in a league two levels below the NHL.
exactly.... and it does matter

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06-11-2013, 12:14 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I really think the guys Darcy is targeting with his trade up talk are the guys Jame keeps advocating for (Barkov, Lindholm and Risto). Meaning he needs to get into the 4-7 spots to make that happen.
I'm completely on board with this. If the move into the top 3 is too much, Lindholm is my guy. I wonder if there is a move to get into this range without giving up 8?

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06-11-2013, 12:15 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I think the point he's making is they are already playing well as 17/ 18 year olds against men in a league 1 level below the NHL. As opposed to the top junior players who are dominating teenagers in a league two levels below the NHL.
I'm not saying its a negative thing, but I think Jame often puts too much of a priority on it.

Players develop at different rates. I'd pick the guy who is projected as being better in five years, not now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jame
says who?
They may be on the team next year, but the team is not doing anything. I understand why you would want to get the guy on the team as soon as possible to develop the NHL game.... but to me I still want the guy who will likely benefit the team more in five years.


That said I agree with your views on Barkov... not because of the fact he is in a senior league though.

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06-11-2013, 12:19 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
You really overrated players you like
He's a better prospect than Murray IMO.

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06-11-2013, 12:28 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowley Birkin View Post
I'm not saying its a negative thing, but I think Jame often puts too much of a priority on it.

Players develop at different rates. I'd pick the guy who is projected as being better in five years, not now.
And the level of competition at the current stage of development should be a factor in your projections.


Quote:
That said I agree with your views on Barkov... not because of the fact he is in a senior league though.
It's your choice to ignore pertinent factors... all it does it make your views less relevant

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06-11-2013, 12:54 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
In your original post you were discussing "trading up vs down" and then said you wanted to wait till the first seven picks to happen. But if you just sit there until 8, then obviously it's too late to trade up. Perhaps you just picked a really weird way to say you don't want to trade up at all?
I was trying to say that I wouldn't trade up this year. The only caveat to that would be the idea of using Stafford as the only trade ammo to move up a couple of spots or so. I just don't like the idea of trading away say a 2nd rounder this year to move up.

And I would be open to trading back in the following example:

The first 7 picks go.

There are 3 guys left at the top of their board all with the pretty much the same grade.

They get an offer to move back a spot or two (ie they are guaranteed to get one of the 3 guys at the top of their board).

But, I would use the pick if there is one guy that slides to them that is above the pack ala Grigorenko last year.

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06-11-2013, 02:33 PM
  #65
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Lindholm confirmed he will finish his contract in Brynas which is one more year, I have read that somewhere.

And remember Jame and others, Risto was a consensus top 4 pick before the season and during last years' draft. It was MacKinnon, Monahan, Barkov, and Risto

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06-11-2013, 06:25 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by LegomyLeggio View Post
The only way to get a sizable return for Miller appears to be either the Flyers getting stupid trying to solve their goalie woes or sending Miller to the Isles and taking The Rick back....
I'm hoping the Flyers show interest but the timing seems to be tricky - the Flyers aren't likely to trade for a goalie until they have committed to a buyout of Bryzgalov. Whether that will happen before the draft seems tentative. But I hope they'd pursue Miller in a package and Regier has the craftiness to wrangle Couturier out of Holmgren's grasp.

The Miller-to-Islanders theories are a waste of time IMO - common sense says that Miller would veto any trade there.

Quote:
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I don't like Nickushkin enough to want them burning assets to move up for him.
I tend to agree - some of the reports that have mentioned his tremendous skill but questionable work ethic and tendency to take some shifts off at times concern me, especially when that was the same projection assigned to Grigorenko last year. If I'm the Sabres, the last thing I want to worry about a prospect I'm about to draft is if they have commitment or intensity issues.

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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
exactly.... and it does matter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowley Birkin View Post
I'm not saying its a negative thing, but I think Jame often puts too much of a priority on it.

Players develop at different rates. I'd pick the guy who is projected as being better in five years, not now.
When Kassian was drafted, many pointed out how he "was a man playing amongst boys" in junior because of his physical development being so mature. That didn't mean anything as we all saw when his mental and emotional maturity wasn't equally advanced. There have been other highly-touted prospects that dominated leagues with older players on talent and size alone but didn't translate that dominance once entering the NHL/AHL.

Barkov is only 17 - while he may be dominating his Finnish league on talent, there's a high probability that adjusting to North America and the pro game will be a huge adjustment and diminish any possible impact right off the bat. He's still a great prospect but projecting him to make an impact as a pro in his rookie year is not that realistic.

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06-11-2013, 07:02 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post

When Kassian was drafted, many pointed out how he "was a man playing amongst boys" in junior because of his physical development being so mature. That didn't mean anything as we all saw when his mental and emotional maturity wasn't equally advanced. There have been other highly-touted prospects that dominated leagues with older players on talent and size alone but didn't translate that dominance once entering the NHL/AHL.
That argument doesn't really make sense because Kassian was playing in juniors. Of course he dominated, he was more physically developed than the rest of the league. That's exactly what Jame is arguing against. Guys like Barkov and Lindholm aren't playing well against guys that are less developed than they are, they're playing well against guys that are more developed than they are.

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06-11-2013, 07:45 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
I'm hoping the Flyers show interest but the timing seems to be tricky - the Flyers aren't likely to trade for a goalie until they have committed to a buyout of Bryzgalov. Whether that will happen before the draft seems tentative. But I hope they'd pursue Miller in a package and Regier has the craftiness to wrangle Couturier out of Holmgren's grasp.

The Miller-to-Islanders theories are a waste of time IMO - common sense says that Miller would veto any trade there.
There's always the possibility of including Bryz in the deal in order to sweeten the pot. We could then buy him out immediately or get some use out of him this season and buy him out next summer.

I know Chain is against bailing out Philly in this regard but I'm for it if it gets a better return and Pegula is OK with the expenditure.

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06-11-2013, 07:55 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
Barkov is only 17 - while he may be dominating his Finnish league on talent, there's a high probability that adjusting to North America and the pro game will be a huge adjustment and diminish any possible impact right off the bat. He's still a great prospect but projecting him to make an impact as a pro in his rookie year is not that realistic.

Last time I checked the finish elite league was better than juniors.

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06-11-2013, 08:23 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
I tend to agree - some of the reports that have mentioned his tremendous skill but questionable work ethic and tendency to take some shifts off at times concern me, especially when that was the same projection assigned to Grigorenko last year. If I'm the Sabres, the last thing I want to worry about a prospect I'm about to draft is if they have commitment or intensity issues.
Parts of the guys game scare me too. He's probably the biggest boom/bust guy in the top tier. Given how Regier has taken more than a few of those guys in the first rounds of recent drafts (Myers, Ennis, Armia to a degree, Grigorenko), he may very well continue that trend if Nichushkin is there this year. He still scares the crap out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
When Kassian was drafted, many pointed out how he "was a man playing amongst boys" in junior because of his physical development being so mature. That didn't mean anything as we all saw when his mental and emotional maturity wasn't equally advanced. There have been other highly-touted prospects that dominated leagues with older players on talent and size alone but didn't translate that dominance once entering the NHL/AHL.

Barkov is only 17 - while he may be dominating his Finnish league on talent, there's a high probability that adjusting to North America and the pro game will be a huge adjustment and diminish any possible impact right off the bat. He's still a great prospect but projecting him to make an impact as a pro in his rookie year is not that realistic.
Myllz basically had my answer -- Kassian was physically more advanced, not mentally more mature than the guys in his league. That's why he had the curfew issues in Peterborough, the bar fight, the incident with Blacker (all seemed to involve the same catalyst too) and other incidents that pointed to his level of mental maturity being well behind his physical prowess. Barkov and Lindholm are mentally mature and playing well despite not being on the same physical level as the rest of their respective leagues. It bodes well for them reaching their full potential.

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06-12-2013, 07:39 AM
  #71
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Kevin Divine on WGR this morning, talking about exactly what people in these threads have called 'ridiculous motions'.

Some Kevy quotes, I am paraphrasing:

"The best player in the draft is either MacKinnon or Jones"
"We called to Colorado yesterday, and will continue to talk to them over the next weeks"
"We've talked to every team out of the playoffs, notably every team with a draft pick ahead of us"
"Colorado may not move from 8 to 1, we discussed the two last days the Brian-Burke-1999-eske hopping strategy"
"Trading up sounds like it may cost some of our young guys, so we'll need to determine the value there"

Basically, they're talking about what we in this thread are talking about, and it sounds like they're keeping an open mind. Bring MacKinnon to Buffalo.

Girgensons,Foligno,Pysyk,Grigorenko,Armia,Myers

Try to keep as much as that core as possible, add MacKinnon (and others), and build a champion.

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06-12-2013, 07:49 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DYaeger89 View Post
Kevin Divine on WGR this morning, talking about exactly what people in these threads have called 'ridiculous motions'.

Some Kevy quotes, I am paraphrasing:

"The best player in the draft is either MacKinnon or Jones"
"We called to Colorado yesterday, and will continue to talk to them over the next weeks"
"We've talked to every team out of the playoffs, notably every team with a draft pick ahead of us"
"Colorado may not move from 8 to 1, we discussed the two last days the Brian-Burke-1999-eske hopping strategy"
"Trading up sounds like it may cost some of our young guys, so we'll need to determine the value there"

Basically, they're talking about what we in this thread are talking about, and it sounds like they're keeping an open mind. Bring MacKinnon to Buffalo.

Girgensons,Foligno,Pysyk,Grigorenko,Armia,Myers

Try to keep as much as that core as possible, add MacKinnon (and others), and build a champion.
It's interesting to me that Devine so openly talked about the idea of trading up.

I still think Barkov is their guy.

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Old
06-12-2013, 07:59 AM
  #73
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Here's the link to the Devine interview....Kevin Devine on the possibility of trading up in the draft and thoughts on:

http://www.wgr550.com/episode_downlo...tentId=6416093

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06-12-2013, 08:04 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DYaeger89 View Post
Kevin Divine on WGR this morning, talking about exactly what people in these threads have called 'ridiculous motions'.

Some Kevy quotes, I am paraphrasing:

"The best player in the draft is either MacKinnon or Jones"
"We called to Colorado yesterday, and will continue to talk to them over the next weeks"
"We've talked to every team out of the playoffs, notably every team with a draft pick ahead of us"
"Colorado may not move from 8 to 1, we discussed the two last days the Brian-Burke-1999-eske hopping strategy"
"Trading up sounds like it may cost some of our young guys, so we'll need to determine the value there"

Basically, they're talking about what we in this thread are talking about, and it sounds like they're keeping an open mind. Bring MacKinnon to Buffalo.

Girgensons,Foligno,Pysyk,Grigorenko,Armia,Myers

Try to keep as much as that core as possible, add MacKinnon (and others), and build a champion.
I would add Hodgson and Ennis to that list of young guys teams will be trying to pry from us. Sounds like Vanek to Nashville isn't really in the cards. We're going to have to make friends with trading some guys that we really like in order to get there.

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06-12-2013, 08:08 AM
  #75
Jame
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I would add Hodgson and Ennis to that list of young guys teams will be trying to pry from us. Sounds like Vanek to Nashville isn't really in the cards. We're going to have to make friends with trading some guys that we really like in order to get there.
and Sekera, McCabe, and McNabb

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