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Subban and that bridge contract..(what to expect with his next extension)

View Poll Results: Bridge contract
Bridge contract was a smart deal. It was a good move for both parties 107 54.04%
Should have signed him long term (likely cheaper) when we had the chance. Bit of a blunder by MB. 91 45.96%
Voters: 198. You may not vote on this poll

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06-11-2013, 11:22 AM
  #226
Andy
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Do you remember all the rumours flown about that he was asking for Shea Weber money, they outnumbered the 4.5 by two to one, btw, I think you're confusing what Bobby Mac said. It was the number being thrown about on a short term deal, to buy UFA years this wasn't even in the ball park imo.

Picking and choosing which numbers of all the rumours being thrown about just because they seem to support your opinion isn't an argument. Bobby Mac wasn't involved in negotiations to my knowledge. Most of the reports were speculation.

I'll ask you again, do you think Subban and his agent were completely oblivious to his worth? We all knew he was gonna break out, but they had no idea? If he signed 6 years at 4.5million it would have been one of the worst decisions ever made by a player and agent.
Do you think I'm stupid or what. I remember McKenzie going on the radio saying that the Habs and Subban were far off from a deal, that the habs wanted a 2 year 5 million while Subban's camp was looking 4-4.5 a year.

McKenzie is the most reputable insider in the business. If these were numbers he heard then I have reason to believe him. He's rarely been wrong.


Last edited by Andy: 06-11-2013 at 11:35 AM.
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06-11-2013, 11:25 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Do you think I'm stupid or what. I remember McKenzie going on the radio saying that the Habs and Subban were far off from a deal, that the habs wanted a 2 year 5 million a year deal while Subban's camp was looking 4-4.5 a year.

McKenzie is the most reputable insider in the business. If these were numbers he heard than I have reason to believe him. He's rarely been wrong.
Read what you just wrote. Tell me if it makes any sense.

The habs wanted five million per year for two years, subban wanted less, so they settled nowheres close, less than both were asking for. Like I said, the numbers Bob were talking about were for 1-2 year deals. There was no shot of signing him for 6 years at 4.5 million. Simply wishful thinking on your behalf.

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06-11-2013, 11:32 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Read what you just wrote. Tell me if it makes any sense.

The habs wanted five million per year for two years, subban wanted less, so they settled nowheres close, less than both were asking for. Like I said, the numbers Bob were talking about were for 1-2 year deals. There was no shot of signing him for 6 years at 4.5 million. Simply wishful thinking on your behalf.
But 5.5 might have been realistic. That way he would have been gaining
something on the RFA years, to off-set less in the UFAyears. And 33 million
for 6 years is a fair amount of security, should his career not go as well as
expected.

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06-11-2013, 11:39 AM
  #229
Andy
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Read what you just wrote. Tell me if it makes any sense.

The habs wanted five million per year for two years, subban wanted less, so they settled nowheres close, less than both were asking for. Like I said, the numbers Bob were talking about were for 1-2 year deals. There was no shot of signing him for 6 years at 4.5 million. Simply wishful thinking on your behalf.
You're dense aren't you. All the insiders were saying that the two parties could not come to an agreement on cap and term. It was state multiple times that Subban was looking for a longer term deal at 4.5 million, this is what sparked the debate on these boards for months until he signed. There is no wishful thinking, just you being dense and pretending that this issue never occured. There was a hold out because the two parties fundamentally disagreed on all aspects of the contract.

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06-11-2013, 11:41 AM
  #230
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The bridge was motivation, and it bought time...good planning on MB's behalf.../thread

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06-11-2013, 11:44 AM
  #231
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Saturday morning, rumors surfaced from Darren Dreger at TSN, and from Renaud Lavoie of RDS (two very well respected journalists) that Montreal’s General Manager Marc Bergevin was offering Subban a 2 year deal between $5 million and $5.2 million (ie $2.5-2.6 million AAV). Subban and agent Don Meehan are meeting this weekend to discuss the offer, and their options going forward.
Quote:
Meanwhile, Subban is reportedly looking for a much longer term deal, and for a lot more money as well. Bob McKenzie had previously reported that the Canadiens and Subban were approximately $3 million apart in their offers, meaning that Subban is looking for upwards of $5.5 million per season.
http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/01/...ith-pk-subban/

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Subban is said to be after a long-term deal that will keep him at the club for at least five years.
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/01/26...contract-talks

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06-11-2013, 11:49 AM
  #232
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Who the **** cares about 2 extra millions per year. When you give it to a Norris Trophy winner, it's more than worth it. There is plenty of "fat money" that can be cut off of this team.

Those who were advocating for a long-term contract last season obviously aren't sensible to what happened to a guy like Tyler Myers...

Now PK has proven to be a Norris Trophy winner, you can pay him the money he deserves.

Do you think the Ducks are disappointed to pay 8M+ to Perry and Getzlaf? Having such players is never a bad thing, no matter how much you have to pay.

If you guys think signing a HUGE, fat contract wouldn't have changed anything on PK, especially knowing it's PK we're talking about, you're off the track. It might not have, but odds are these fat contracts handed to young promising d-men backfire on the team more often than not.

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06-11-2013, 11:55 AM
  #233
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You care about 2 millions more per year because we're playing with a salary cap and every penny counts.

We could have had Subban long-term for around 4,5M.

Now we'll have to pay him 5,5M and up, most definitely.

It's just bad asset management. See the Preds, they saw good things in Josi and just locked him up for 7 years at 4M/per. Sure, it may not look like a bargain right now, but they think he'll develop to a point where the contract will turn into a steal. It's what we call a calculated risk.

Bergevin mismanaged the situation and got lucky the situaton turned out the way it did, if only for the fact Subban could have turned his back to the team and ask for a trade.

Everybody is glad Subban developped the way he did, and I'd be more than happy to lock him up long-term to a contract he fully deserves, but we could have had him for less, and that's a fact. And I don't believe this contract saga is somehow the reason Subban developped the way he did, everybody could see from miles away (at least, most Habs fans) that he had Norris potential.


Last edited by Lebowski: 06-11-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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06-11-2013, 11:58 AM
  #234
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Who the **** cares about 2 extra millions per year. When you give it to a Norris Trophy winner, it's more than worth it. There is plenty of "fat money" that can be cut off of this team.

Those who were advocating for a long-term contract last season obviously aren't sensible to what happened to a guy like Tyler Myers...

Did Mike Richards suddenly fall off the map when he signed his 12 year 69 million deal with the Flyers? He had back to back 30 goal years and a played a key role on a cup winning team. Not all players are the same, for every case of x there is a case y.


Quote:
Now PK has proven to be a Norris Trophy winner, you can pay him the money he deserves.

Do you think the Ducks are disappointed to pay 8M+ to Perry and Getzlaf? Having such players is never a bad thing, no matter how much you have to pay.
No but in a cap world, when you have a chance to save, you do so. No I don't think the Ducks mind that they are paying Perry and Getzlaf 8 million +, but I bet you they'd be happier paying them less. Also, when these players have off years or if they slow down, it's a lot easier to swallow the discrepancy between cap and performance at 5.5 million than it is at 8.

Quote:
If you guys think signing a HUGE, fat contract wouldn't have changed anything on PK, especially knowing it's PK we're talking about, you're off the track. It might not have, but odds are these fat contracts handed to young promising d-men backfire on the team more often than not.
This is pure conjecture, not based on anything but speculation. Players have been handed big deals at a young age and have played up to their contract. It's not a rarity. Sure there are players like Myers who fall off the map, but it doesn't mean it's a rule. PK was already playing as the team's #1 d-man in the previous two seasons. His growth as a player since his draft year has been exponential, there was nothing indicating a slow down in his development. We had a chance to get a Norris winner signed long-term at a smaller cap hit, we missed the boat.

Yes yes, we shouldn't care about paying a player who earned that money etc etc, but it's a cap world...every dollar matters, if you can save money, I don't see why you shouldn't do it, especially when it's your best player.


Last edited by Andy: 06-11-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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06-11-2013, 12:01 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Habaddict View Post
True.

I fact this Norris type season is what many observers expected of him,
regardless of contract status.
I expected him to have a great year, especially with Markov back in the roster, but didn't think he'd be a Norris candidate.

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06-11-2013, 12:12 PM
  #236
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Do you remember all the rumours flown about that he was asking for Shea Weber money, they outnumbered the 4.5 by two to one, btw, I think you're confusing what Bobby Mac said. It was the number being thrown about on a short term deal, to buy UFA years this wasn't even in the ball park imo.

Picking and choosing which numbers of all the rumours being thrown about just because they seem to support your opinion isn't an argument. Bobby Mac wasn't involved in negotiations to my knowledge. Most of the reports were speculation.

I'll ask you again, do you think Subban and his agent were completely oblivious to his worth? We all knew he was gonna break out, but they had no idea? If he signed 6 years at 4.5million it would have been one of the worst decisions ever made by a player and agent.
It was actually Doughty money, not Shae Weber. But neither made sense unless you think PK is one greedy selfish guy. Heck, the guy even went on record saying he just wants a fair deal, that he's not asking for the moon. So he killed those rumors himself, unless you think he was misleading and lying.

After a few days to reflect the offer made by the habs he accepts it. We learn that what they offered him was a little over 5M over 2 years. So his words about wanting to be paired fair value made a lot more sense. Not sure how 7-8M is what people think he meant by ''fair value''. The rumors about him looking for something around 4.5-5.5M certainly fell into place.

The Doughty type cash rumors came out the first and were shut down as negotiations went on by most insiders, and you can even include PK.


Not sure what you're babbling about speaking of him and his agent knowing he was gonna break out so he wanted a short term deal.
They wanted security right away as they felt he had proven enough. Bergevin disagreed and even stated he needed to see some things from PK.
His signing a 27M would have been the worst decision ever made by a player and agent?? Right...

Stop the nonsense.

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06-11-2013, 12:18 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Read what you just wrote. Tell me if it makes any sense.

The habs wanted five million per year for two years, subban wanted less, so they settled nowheres close, less than both were asking for. Like I said, the numbers Bob were talking about were for 1-2 year deals. There was no shot of signing him for 6 years at 4.5 million. Simply wishful thinking on your behalf.
How does this even make sense in your mind??...

Habs wanted to give him 10M for 2 years but PK decided to cut it in half and take 5M instead???

PK wanted a long term deal. Habs didn't. They went back and forth. So PK said okay, 2 year deal, but I'll take the same salary (between 4.5-5.5M). Habs said no, not flinching, taking a small bridge deal worth just over 5M. PK said no, that's no where near fair value.
Bergevin stuck to his gun, decided to go to war versus his best player, and forced him out to begin the year. PK realized Bergevin had all the power, and on top of it, the team was winning, there was no training camp and it's a shortened season so every missed game was twice as much critical. So PK budged and signed a ridiculous small deal that nobody saw coming.
Even the over dramatic critics of PK calling him selfish and not a team player because he didn't agree to a deal with management didn't expect him to sign for such a small deal.

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06-11-2013, 12:22 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
You care about 2 millions more per year because we're playing with a salary cap and every penny counts.We could have had Subban long-term for around 4,5M.

Now we'll have to pay him 5,5M and up, most definitely.

It's just bad asset management. See the Preds, they saw good things in Josi and just locked him up for 7 years at 4M/per. Sure, it may not look like a bargain right now, but they think he'll develop to a point where the contract will turn into a steal. It's what we call a calculated risk.

Bergevin mismanaged the situation and got lucky the situaton turned out the way it did, if only for the fact Subban could have turned his back to the team and ask for a trade.

Everybody is glad Subban developped the way he did, and I'd be more than happy to lock him up long-term to a contract he fully deserves, but we could have had him for less, and that's a fact. And I don't believe this contract saga is somehow the reason Subban developped the way he did, everybody could see from miles away (at least, most Habs fans) that he had Norris potential.
That's just a myth...

Owners/GM's have been throwing money around like it's nobody's business for years. Only fans sit an obsess about every penny spent because for some reason, they think being frugal wins you Stanley Cups...

Subban will cost more next year then he would have yes...but there's 65M+ available to ice a hockey team, that's more then enough money to build a competitive team as long as you draft well and make smart trades/signings.

You really think having to pay 2-3M more per year for a star player throws a teams salary structure out of whack on its own?

There's A LOT more to building a successful team than just making sure no one on your team is 'overpaid'.

The Boston Bruins paid Milan Lucic 6M this year for 7 goals...they're in the Stanley Cup finals

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06-11-2013, 01:16 PM
  #239
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I still like it, he will get his big contract and we get 2 extra years with the bridge contract

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06-11-2013, 01:25 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
How does this even make sense in your mind??...

Habs wanted to give him 10M for 2 years but PK decided to cut it in half and take 5M instead???

PK wanted a long term deal. Habs didn't. They went back and forth. So PK said okay, 2 year deal, but I'll take the same salary (between 4.5-5.5M). Habs said no, not flinching, taking a small bridge deal worth just over 5M. PK said no, that's no where near fair value.
Bergevin stuck to his gun, decided to go to war versus his best player, and forced him out to begin the year. PK realized Bergevin had all the power, and on top of it, the team was winning, there was no training camp and it's a shortened season so every missed game was twice as much critical. So PK budged and signed a ridiculous small deal that nobody saw coming.
Even the over dramatic critics of PK calling him selfish and not a team player because he didn't agree to a deal with management didn't expect him to sign for such a small deal.
The Habs offer was rumoured at $5M over 2 years, not for each year.

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06-11-2013, 01:35 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Did Mike Richards suddenly fall off the map when he signed his 12 year 69 million deal with the Flyers? He had back to back 30 goal years and a played a key role on a cup winning team. Not all players are the same, for every case of x there is a case y.




No but in a cap world, when you have a chance to save, you do so. No I don't think the Ducks mind that they are paying Perry and Getzlaf 8 million +, but I bet you they'd be happier paying them less. Also, when these players have off years or if they slow down, it's a lot easier to swallow the discrepancy between cap and performance at 5.5 million than it is at 8.



This is pure conjecture, not based on anything but speculation. Players have been handed big deals at a young age and have played up to their contract. It's not a rarity. Sure there are players like Myers who fall off the map, but it doesn't mean it's a rule. PK was already playing as the team's #1 d-man in the previous two seasons. His growth as a player since his draft year has been exponential, there was nothing indicating a slow down in his development. We had a chance to get a Norris winner signed long-term at a smaller cap hit, we missed the boat.

Yes yes, we shouldn't care about paying a player who earned that money etc etc, but it's a cap world...every dollar matters, if you can save money, I don't see why you shouldn't do it, especially when it's your best player.
Overpaying PK Subban is the least of this team's concerns. Whether people here admit it or not. There are cap mismanagement examples at several places in this lineup, and Subban getting 1.5-2M more than he would have is not one of them.

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06-11-2013, 01:36 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
I still like it, he will get his big contract and we get 2 extra years with the bridge contract
First off we don't have 2 extra years yet and second nothings stopping us from re-signing him after his next contract anyways. If he wants to become a UFA as quickly as possible he will, the bridge deal only makes it more likely that we have him for less time.

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06-11-2013, 01:38 PM
  #243
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First off we don't have 2 extra years yet and second nothings stopping us from re-signing him after his next contract anyways. If he wants to become a UFA as quickly as possible he will, the bridge deal only makes it more likely that we have him for less time.
You should spend more time worrying about the contracts handed to Gionta and Gorges (9M combined) by Gainey and your hero than a mere extra 2M in a potential 70M and upwards cap space league spent on a superstar player.

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06-11-2013, 01:53 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
You should spend more time worrying about the contracts handed to Gionta and Gorges (9M combined) by Gainey and your hero than a mere extra 2M in a potential 70M and upwards cap space league spent on a superstar player.
You will always have some players overpaid, the key is to get enough players underpaid to cover it. If you only underpay RFAs then it will be hard to keep it up long term. We missed an easy opportunity to do that longterm and risked alienating our superstar in the process.

My concern is that Bergevin has been bad on pretty much every contract he gave out. So far the only good deal was Pacioretty's, everyone else he's overpaid.

And you come off as very petty by claiming Gauthier is my hero.

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06-11-2013, 01:58 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
You're dense aren't you. All the insiders were saying that the two parties could not come to an agreement on cap and term. It was state multiple times that Subban was looking for a longer term deal at 4.5 million, this is what sparked the debate on these boards for months until he signed. There is no wishful thinking, just you being dense and pretending that this issue never occured. There was a hold out because the two parties fundamentally disagreed on all aspects of the contract.
>Right, which is what I was saying, not you, read your post again and maybe one more time and tell me if it makes any more sense this time. Multiple times it was said to be 4.5million, sure it was.


Last edited by habsfanatics: 06-11-2013 at 02:10 PM.
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06-11-2013, 02:00 PM
  #246
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How does this even make sense in your mind??...

Habs wanted to give him 10M for 2 years but PK decided to cut it in half and take 5M instead???

PK wanted a long term deal. Habs didn't. They went back and forth. So PK said okay, 2 year deal, but I'll take the same salary (between 4.5-5.5M). Habs said no, not flinching, taking a small bridge deal worth just over 5M. PK said no, that's no where near fair value.
Bergevin stuck to his gun, decided to go to war versus his best player, and forced him out to begin the year. PK realized Bergevin had all the power, and on top of it, the team was winning, there was no training camp and it's a shortened season so every missed game was twice as much critical. So PK budged and signed a ridiculous small deal that nobody saw coming.
Even the over dramatic critics of PK calling him selfish and not a team player because he didn't agree to a deal with management didn't expect him to sign for such a small deal.
I didn't write that, Andy did, try following the conversation. He has since edited his post, of course it doesn't make any sense. He says Bob mac said 4-4.5 million long term and then posted an article saying upwards of 5.5m to support his claim. There was zero chance pk was signing here long term for 4.5 million. I've seen you post this before and there is not a single ounce of evidence to support this.


Last edited by habsfanatics: 06-11-2013 at 02:11 PM.
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06-11-2013, 02:05 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I didn't write that, Andy did, try following the conversation.
Oh lord, you knew what I meant, it was a typo. I fixed it over an hour ago. Get over it.

I provided the links which had the reports from McKenzie and Dreger, two of the most reputable insiders in the business. I didn't make the numbers out of this air as you accused me of doing.

The Habs wanted a 2 year 5 million deal (yes yes it was a typo, it doesn't change what I was saying before), while Subban reportedly wanted 4.5 to 5.5 million on a longer deal, some reports suggesting at least 5 years. I didn't pull these numbers out of my ass as you suggested. We could have potentially signed Subban long-term for cheaper. Of course it remains to be seen how much he will actually get on his next deal, but considering he originally asking for 4.5 after only two seasons, I wouldn't be surprised to see his agent ask for more.

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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
. He says Bob mac said 4-4.5 million long term and then posted an article saying upwards of 5.5m to support his claim. There was zero chance pk was signing here long term for 4.5 million. I've seen you post this before and there is not a single ounce of evidence to support this.
The article says McKenzie reported that they were approximately 3 million dollars apart. The authors of the article suggested the 5.5 million. McKenzie was on Habs radio several times and said that Subban was asking around 4.5 million a year.

You're just being obtuse.


Last edited by Andy: 06-11-2013 at 02:12 PM.
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06-11-2013, 02:06 PM
  #248
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I honestly don't understand how people think the bridge contract was that bad. The most important thing to me would be to lock up Subban for as long as possible. Thanks to the bridge contract MB can lock up Subban for a full 10 years, not 4, not 6... 10!

His cap hit will indeed be greater and more money will be spent, but he's earned it. To top it off, we can sign him for as much as 6 of his UFA years which pretty much includes the majority if not all of his prime years.

How was this not the right decision?

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06-11-2013, 02:13 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It was actually Doughty money, not Shae Weber. But neither made sense unless you think PK is one greedy selfish guy. Heck, the guy even went on record saying he just wants a fair deal, that he's not asking for the moon. So he killed those rumors himself, unless you think he was misleading and lying.

After a few days to reflect the offer made by the habs he accepts it. We learn that what they offered him was a little over 5M over 2 years. So his words about wanting to be paired fair value made a lot more sense. Not sure how 7-8M is what people think he meant by ''fair value''. The rumors about him looking for something around 4.5-5.5M certainly fell into place.

The Doughty type cash rumors came out the first and were shut down as negotiations went on by most insiders, and you can even include PK.


Not sure what you're babbling about speaking of him and his agent knowing he was gonna break out so he wanted a short term deal.
They wanted security right away as they felt he had proven enough. Bergevin disagreed and even stated he needed to see some things from PK.
His signing a 27M would have been the worst decision ever made by a player and agent?? Right...

Stop the nonsense.
The nonsense is coming from a poster who feels the need to involve himself in a conversation without reading the posts.

Signing for 27 million when your worth is substantially more than that is freaking stupid.

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06-11-2013, 02:14 PM
  #250
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Armenia
Posts: 3,275
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I find that he should have signed him for more a long term. But I don't feel like it's a blunder either. It was a smart move. This way, MB can have cap room to sign more players. And if PK did show great promise, he would reward him accordingly. Of course, now we'll probably won't have as much room for other players, seeing that PK won the Norris. But I don't care, we haven't had such a player come through our draft in a long time.

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