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Peter Laviolette is our problem

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06-11-2013, 01:21 PM
  #1
John Wayne Gretzky
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Peter Laviolette is our problem

I am prepared to be flamed for this, but being a die hard fan and watching this team year in and year out, I really do not think it is our defense or goaltending that is to blame for our struggles. I believe it is our coaching staff.

Hear me out. I am sure everyone here watched the NJ devils embarrass us last year in the playoffs, as well as the Rangers own us all season long. My issue with Lavi is he is merely a motivational coach with no strategy. He does not have the ability to adjust mid game or in a series. Take for example his tenure in Carolina. He won a cup and was fired soon after. Essentially he is a loud coach who can motivate players into stepping their game up, at least in the beginning, over time it stops working and it shows that his system is bogus. The Devils did the same thing game in and game out, and even outshot us by a significant margin in 2 of those games, because we went in doing the same thing. We barely had any shots in the slot, we dumped and chased while they had one dman hang lower than the other and were beaten to every puck. What did Lavi do? not change the game plan, but change lines. That seems to be his only answer.

As far as our defense goes, on paper our defense should be among the leagues best. I mean a team like Ottawa played great D missing their best Dman all year and playing rookies for the most part, so there has to be something more than our Dmen are garbage. I do hate Coburn and think he should be traded while he still holds value before he becomes Chris Therrien 2.0.

Our goaltending issue. I honestly think we could have Rask, Quick or Lundqvist in this system, and their numbers would be mediocre. Lets take Bryzgalov pre Laviolette. He won a stanley cup in Anaheim (I know he was a backup) but when Giggy went down, he stood on his head posting 3 consecutive shutouts in the playoffs. In PHX, although his playoff numbers were not spectacular, in fairness he did face the high powered Red Wings both times, taking them to 7 games and then getting destroyed the next season, but during the regular season in his last 3 seasons in PHX he led the NHL in Wins and Shutouts and was nominated for the Vezina trophy. What happens when he comes to Philadelphia? He looks mediocre and shows flashes of brilliance. Now lets take a look at Sergei Bobrovsky. He looked solid in his rookie season, and then gets benched for Leighton and Boucher in the playoffs, which shatters a young goalies confidence. Last season he was the worst statistical goalie in the NHL, he wants to be a starter and is traded to the worst team in the NHL. Now, logically speaking, putting the worst goalie in hockey on the reigning worst team in the league, would lead you to believe he would be even worse somehow, but no, he ends up playing great and should win the Vezina trophy.

Something doesn't add up. I am willing to eat my own words on this, but if Laviolette is our coach this season, it is going to look a lot like John Stevens last year and we are going to struggle out the gate.

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06-11-2013, 01:31 PM
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He's definitely not the solution.

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06-11-2013, 01:37 PM
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06-11-2013, 01:40 PM
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Lavi is a problem, but he isn't Bryz's problem. Bryz is a problem all on his own.

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06-11-2013, 01:46 PM
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John Wayne Gretzky
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Thats fine, buy him out, but Mason will not fare well either. Which leads me to my next thought process.

What I feel we should do in the offseason.

11th pick : Draft Nurse or Zadorov if available.

Throw an offer sheet at Piets. We tried it with Weber, it failed, but why not try it again.

Trade Coburn : I am sure he still holds value to many GM's due to his size and speed. Cap needs to be shed, and I am sure we can land a relatively cheaper and younger unproven guy with upside at the draft.

Trade Meszaros : I have no problem with Mesz, but his injury history and 4 mil hit is killing us. Move him for a 3rd (2nd if we can somehow get lucky)

Couts for Ryan : I know everyone is going to bash me for this. I am saying theoretically and based on rumors. Its Ryan or Yandle essentially from what I have heard and it is going to take Couts. While we need a PMD and I just said we should trade 2 of our dmen making this seem counter-intuitive, but I always say you take the best player and in this case its Ryan. Talk about consistency, the kid always puts up 30 + goals and coming to play for his favorite team I imagine would only make him play better. Given the extensions to Fasth, Perry and Getzlaf, it looks like the ducks would look to make a hockey trade for a center on a cheaper contact.

Buy out either Briere or Bryz : I am actually a fan of bryz, but if it means saving 5.6 mil over the next 6 years and possibly picking up another goalie like Thomas in UFA and running him with Mason, I would be ok with it. Briere makes more, his age is showing, but hes only got 2 years left on that contract. One of them needs to go though, merely to give us more wiggle room for the resigning of G.

Sign Mark Streit : We need a PMD, why not get one without having to give up any assets? From what I have read he wants to test the market but would prefer to play in the east coast so he does not have to move his family. Streit is a good 2 way D man with great offensive ability, especially given his age.

Bring up Laughton, Akeson and Lauridsen : I believe that Laughton will make a perfect 3rd line center and we will forget about Couturier if traded. He is a hard worker and he has offensive ability. Akeson I have wanted to see make the jump for a while now. I know it was one game, but he was in all of the right places, I think he could be a full time nhler. Lauridsen shows glimpses of a young Pronger when I watch him play. Pronger took a bit of time to adjust to the league and was traded to STL. With the right mentoring he could be a terror to play against. He is cheap in front of the net and intimidating, he just needs to learn how to be more subtle and hide it from the refs. That is what made Pronger hard to play against. If he can work on that shot, I truly believe he can become a top 4 dman in the league.


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06-11-2013, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I'm just trying to make conversation with other fans and see their opinions. Make all of the lame redundant comments that you see on every other thread on these boards if you want to waste your time and feel some sort of significance, or actually make a statement with a well thought out counterpoint and be useful.

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06-11-2013, 02:04 PM
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I do think he is PART of the problem and I as I've said I don't think he makes it through Christmas. I also don't think he adjusts well to tight checking teams nor do I think the team adjust well to him when he does try to adjust. That extra layer of D that he incorporated this year partly b/c management wanted him to do so to cover Bryz's inability to be the best player on the ice ...seemed to have confused the players and Hartnell said as much. They started putting it together at the end which cost us a better pick but I still don't think it would have been sustainable. The injuries played a part but as Ottawa showed..that crutch only goes so far.

Now would be the perfect opportunity to get another coach given how many decent candidates are unemployed but Holmgren is doubling down on Lavi b/c firing him would have been an indictment of management as well given how they played a hand in this year's underachievement. Holmgren had an ill-assembled team.

Also, apparently Bryz and Lavi's relationship is still a "work in progress" which doesn't bode well unless Bryz is actually bought out. Only way Lavi sticks around is if the entire team overachieves (many career years) next season as opposed to underachieving this past season....

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06-11-2013, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Lavi is a problem, but he isn't Bryz's problem. Bryz is a problem all on his own.
do you think bryz would have better stats if he was still in phx?

I mean, the guy has put up respectable numbers in the places he played before here.

I do think he has been square peg/round holed to a degree...and he certainly isn't being helped out by our style of play.

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06-11-2013, 02:19 PM
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Also, a good friend of mine who is an isles fan told me when he was hired...enjoy lavi for about 3 years until the team burns out on him.

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06-11-2013, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
I do think he is PART of the problem and I as I've said I don't think he makes it through Christmas. I also don't think he adjusts well to tight checking teams nor do I think the team adjust well to him when he does try to adjust. That extra layer of D that he incorporated this year partly b/c management wanted him to do so to cover Bryz's inability to be the best player on the ice ...seemed to have confused the players and Hartnell said as much. They started putting it together at the end which cost us a better pick but I still don't think it would have been sustainable. The injuries played a part but as Ottawa showed..that crutch only goes so far.

Now would be the perfect opportunity to get another coach given how many decent candidates are unemployed but Holmgren is doubling down on Lavi b/c firing him would have been an indictment of management as well given how they played a hand in this year's underachievement. Holmgren had an ill-assembled team.

Also, apparently Bryz and Lavi's relationship is still a "work in progress" which doesn't bode well unless Bryz is actually bought out. Only way Lavi sticks around is if the entire team overachieves (many career years) next season as opposed to underachieving this past season....
Agreed. I would love Torts. He is the same type of motivational guy, but he is a smart coach who doesn't take **** from primadonna players (which is why he was fired from what I have heard). Players that cannot handle the coach telling them what they are doing wrong are whats wrong with sports in general today. If you are playing bad and being paid upwards of 6 million dollars, you should be getting chewed out, and thats why the coach is getting paid his salary. Hell I'd even take Ruff.

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06-11-2013, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Also, a good friend of mine who is an isles fan told me when he was hired...enjoy lavi for about 3 years until the team burns out on him.
Yep, I was told the same thing from Isles and Canes fans I am friends with, and it seems to be holding true.

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06-11-2013, 02:24 PM
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do you think bryz would have better stats if he was still in phx?

I mean, the guy has put up respectable numbers in the places he played before here.

I do think he has been square peg/round holed to a degree...and he certainly isn't being helped out by our style of play.
If he plays in Phoenix last year like he played in Philly his stats still would have taken a nose dive. The guy can't even get positioned for shots taken from the blue line.

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06-11-2013, 02:25 PM
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I agree a lot of those goalies would have lesser numbers here last year but bryz flat out was horrible on too many shoots. Almost no one on one saves etc...

I also agree that on paper our D should be awesome and I think they will be miles better this year. They had so many injuries. To all those saying 'just a matter of time till mez goes down' are wrong he had freak injuries and if he good to go next year we may have the mez that was outstanding two years ago. Grossmann is the one who's health you should question

Lavi was the problem for sure over past few years however many including Snieder have been quoted saying the exact things you did relative to the devils and rangers...we just didn't have time to modify the system...ie no preseason and a 0-6 start with the busiest schedule in the league. They will address this. Lavi can make adjustments, you simply don't win a cup if you can't adjust. And he has won a cup and gotten to the finals

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06-11-2013, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
I'm just trying to make conversation with other fans and see their opinions. Make all of the lame redundant comments that you see on every other thread on these boards if you want to waste your time and feel some sort of significance, or actually make a statement with a well thought out counterpoint and be useful.
We have been thru this how many times? Who do you want to coach this team? Lavi is a good coach. not his fault how the team was constructed and the goaltending has been inconsistent at best. Does he have his faults? Sure. 99 percent of the coaches do. But I still feel he is a good coach. going to a Rangers/Kings/Blues system isnt going to work with the roster in place.

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06-11-2013, 02:31 PM
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I agree a lot of those goalies would have lesser numbers here last year but bryz flat out was horrible on too many shoots. Almost no one on one saves etc...

I also agree that on paper our D should be awesome and I think they will be miles better this year. They had so many injuries. To all those saying 'just a matter of time till mez goes down' are wrong he had freak injuries and if he good to go next year we may have the mez that was outstanding two years ago. Grossmann is the one who's health you should question

Lavi was the problem for sure over past few years however many including Snieder have been quoted saying the exact things you did relative to the devils and rangers...we just didn't have time to modify the system...ie no preseason and a 0-6 start with the busiest schedule in the league. They will address this. Lavi can make adjustments, you simply don't win a cup if you can't adjust. And he has won a cup and gotten to the finals
I was speaking in regards to the 11/12 season, not 12/13.

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06-11-2013, 02:31 PM
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Those systems would work a lot better than what we have now. This system does not work for this team. We have one real good puck moving Dman, and he has one year left. The team is built for the offensive nature of the lock, but defensively it is a mess. Now it isn't lavis fault that we have the personal we do, that is all on Homer. It is easier to replace a coach with someone who can work with a better system, then replace all the guys who don't fit. This off season would have been a perfect chance to snag someone like AV or Eakins.

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06-11-2013, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
We have been thru this how many times? Who do you want to coach this team? Lavi is a good coach. not his fault how the team was constructed and the goaltending has been inconsistent at best. Does he have his faults? Sure. 99 percent of the coaches do. But I still feel he is a good coach. going to a Rangers/Kings/Blues system isnt going to work with the roster in place.
As one of the commenters said above, he has done this in every city he has coached, we need a new bench boss, and I'll take Vigneault, Ruff or Torts.

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06-11-2013, 02:34 PM
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I think Lavi is a problem in a sort of? I agree with some of your points and some of them I can't agree on. I think the issue with Lavi is he has his system of coaching in which his style is the style no matter what. So, when the Flyers have players that do not fit the system they play bad and look silly. Having defensemen that could move the puck is essential. With Pronger and Carle the Flyers were in the Cup Finals. I do not pin the playoffs of Bob on Lavi. Bob made comments (if I recall right) about not being mentally ready for the playoffs. Let in awful goals and was deactivated.
With that being said, if the Flyers management won't bring in Players who fit his system he needs to go.

In the Devils series the Flyers were outworked. Jagr and Briere were awful and killed the lines they were on. With no Pronger they couldn't get the puck out of their own zone. Also, Bryz actually played well in the Devils series, they were just pinned deep seemingly every game.

Trading Coburn doesn't seem to make sense to me. His value will be at its lowest. He also logs big minutes that you would have to replace. I think giving him another year is the best idea for quality asset management. He was awful this past season, but I suspect if you can change his role on the team as well as pair him with Grossman all season would be the best bet. Coburn is going to make mistakes if you stick him in his own zone and constantly force him to make short passes out of the corner, I think he is much better in the neutral zone letting him move around and pinch if he has too with Grossman covering.

I agree with trading Mesz. Flyers need his cap space. With a team tight against the cap every season, and Pronger on LTIR, you cant have an injury prone defensemen taking up that much cap coming in and out of the Lineup.

Trading Couts would be a big mistake. I like Ryan, I think he will even sign with the Flyers after next season. I just see it as if you trade Couts, it will be near impossible to find a defensive center as good as he will be. Would Ryan be that huge of an upgrade over Hartnell, Simmonds, and Voracek that it will turn this team into a cup contender by adding him? I'd much rather keep Couts, and make a play for Ryan in free agency.

I agree with buying out Briere. He is worth a fraction of his cap hit and is such a liability in the regular season his "clutchness" in the playoffs is

I would also would buyout Bryz if you bring in another goalie. Mason looked great with the Flyers, but making him the starter would be a huge risk. If say you traded Read for Bernier straight up, buying out Bryz makes a ton of sense. I would give Bryz one more season so his buyout isn't as bad and lets the Flyers take an extended look at Mason.

I would love Nurse at 11. Also I think Streit makes sense too, a 2 year deal would be ideal. 3 good puck movers in Kimmo, Streit, Gus, and 3 good stay at home defensemen. Assuming Kimmo retires you would still have Streit the following season to make the loss not at bad.
Kimmo-Schenn
Streit-Coburn
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Laughton should be called up and I imagine he will be. Akeson will have a chance to make the team as well. I think the Flyers bottom 6 will have a chance to be one of the best. Talbot, Laughton, Rinaldo, Akeson, McGinn, Gagne? Read? Couts? with Rosehill at 13th forward. I like Lauridsen. I think he can be a NHL defensemen. I just think he needs to improve with players similar to him, Coburn, Grossman, Schenn, all ahead of him.

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06-11-2013, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
I think Lavi is a problem in a sort of? I agree with some of your points and some of them I can't agree on. I think the issue with Lavi is he has his system of coaching in which his style is the style no matter what. So, when the Flyers have players that do not fit the system they play bad and look silly. Having defensemen that could move the puck is essential. With Pronger and Carle the Flyers were in the Cup Finals. I do not pin the playoffs of Bob on Lavi. Bob made comments (if I recall right) about not being mentally ready for the playoffs. Let in awful goals and was deactivated.
With that being said, if the Flyers management won't bring in Players who fit his system he needs to go.

In the Devils series the Flyers were outworked. Jagr and Briere were awful and killed the lines they were on. With no Pronger they couldn't get the puck out of their own zone. Also, Bryz actually played well in the Devils series, they were just pinned deep seemingly every game.

Trading Coburn doesn't seem to make sense to me. His value will be at its lowest. He also logs big minutes that you would have to replace. I think giving him another year is the best idea for quality asset management. He was awful this past season, but I suspect if you can change his role on the team as well as pair him with Grossman all season would be the best bet. Coburn is going to make mistakes if you stick him in his own zone and constantly force him to make short passes out of the corner, I think he is much better in the neutral zone letting him move around and pinch if he has too with Grossman covering.

I agree with trading Mesz. Flyers need his cap space. With a team tight against the cap every season, and Pronger on LTIR, you cant have an injury prone defensemen taking up that much cap coming in and out of the Lineup.

Trading Couts would be a big mistake. I like Ryan, I think he will even sign with the Flyers after next season. I just see it as if you trade Couts, it will be near impossible to find a defensive center as good as he will be. Would Ryan be that huge of an upgrade over Hartnell, Simmonds, and Voracek that it will turn this team into a cup contender by adding him? I'd much rather keep Couts, and make a play for Ryan in free agency.

I agree with buying out Briere. He is worth a fraction of his cap hit and is such a liability in the regular season his "clutchness" in the playoffs is

I would also would buyout Bryz if you bring in another goalie. Mason looked great with the Flyers, but making him the starter would be a huge risk. If say you traded Read for Bernier straight up, buying out Bryz makes a ton of sense. I would give Bryz one more season so his buyout isn't as bad and lets the Flyers take an extended look at Mason.

I would love Nurse at 11. Also I think Streit makes sense too, a 2 year deal would be ideal. 3 good puck movers in Kimmo, Streit, Gus, and 3 good stay at home defensemen. Assuming Kimmo retires you would still have Streit the following season to make the loss not at bad.
Kimmo-Schenn
Streit-Coburn
Gus-Grossman

Laughton should be called up and I imagine he will be. Akeson will have a chance to make the team as well. I think the Flyers bottom 6 will have a chance to be one of the best. Talbot, Laughton, Rinaldo, Akeson, McGinn, Gagne? Read? Couts? with Rosehill at 13th forward. I like Lauridsen. I think he can be a NHL defensemen. I just think he needs to improve with players similar to him, Coburn, Grossman, Schenn, all ahead of him.
The Coburn thing goes with the suggestive offer sheet to Piets, not saying that would happen, but if it did, you dump Coburn for a 2nd rounder.

From what I understand we can only buy out one guy this year, its a tough call on which one to buy out.

That defensive play we all fell in love with from Couturier was missing all season, and hes young, I get that, and I am never one to say trade away your young guys, but if it came to a straight up swap for Ryan, I do it 10 times out of 10. Who replaces Couts you say? Scott Laughton. I think he can play the same game, with more strength in the corners and forechecking ability.

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06-11-2013, 02:50 PM
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The Coburn thing goes with the suggestive offer sheet to Piets, not saying that would happen, but if it did, you dump Coburn for a 2nd rounder.

From what I understand we can only buy out one guy this year, its a tough call on which one to buy out.

That defensive play we all fell in love with from Couturier was missing all season, and hes young, I get that, and I am never one to say trade away your young guys, but if it came to a straight up swap for Ryan, I do it 10 times out of 10. Who replaces Couts you say? Scott Laughton. I think he can play the same game, with more strength in the corners and forechecking ability.
Couturier's defensive play actually wasn't missing. Statistics show he's still among the best defensive centers in the league. If Lavi is fired and we go to a defensive system, Couturier will become even more important. He's one of the few guys who knows how to play defensive hockey and move the puck from his own end. You need players that fit the system, and Couturier fits that very well. Laughton cannot replace Couturier defensively.

As for Ryan, I wouldn't bother trading for him. See if he can be had in UFA. He isn't really a need. Couturier and his defensive abilities are a need.

I'm pretty sure we can use both amnesties this year if needed, they just have a two year expiration date.

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06-11-2013, 03:04 PM
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He's not completely innocent, but I wouldn't say he's out main problem and the sole reason we struggle. He has failed to make in-game adjustments on numerous occasions to teams that bring a hard 2 man forecheck. We had no answer for the Devils when they did it to us, didn't sink the forwards lower to support the defense or anything. Same thing against the Rangers for most of the past 2 years. The defense is still rather slow and not very good at breaking out the puck. It's not his fault that he's dealing with that personnel, but it's his job to take the personnel and make it work.

On the other hand, this team is not at all suited to his system. Laviolette's system calls for experienced, disciplined NHL players that stick to the system for it to work. We don't have that here. It's important to remember that when Laviolette was hired, the core of this team was Chris Pronger, Kimmo Timonen, Mike Richards, and Jeff Carter. The core is now Claude Giroux, Jakub Voracek, and an old Kimmo Timonen. I think this team needs another John Stevens-like coach. I don't want us to hire Stevens because he had even less of a system than Laviolette, but a guy that develops players and establishes them at the NHL level. Dallas Eakins probably could have been that guy. Have him for 2-3 years, then when the team's skill level is clearly better than the results they're providing(because the coach is a better developer than result producer), fire him and hire another Laviolette-like coach that can put an established team over the top. It's no coincidence that Richards and Carter had their best offensive seasons under Stevens, and haven't come close to replicating them since under Laviolette or Sutter.

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06-11-2013, 03:07 PM
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John Wayne Gretzky
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I thought I read you had to use each one during each off season, I could be wrong.

I dont know what system Lavi runs, I cant seem to see one when I watch Flyers games. Can someone lay it out for me?

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06-11-2013, 03:34 PM
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Flyotes
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Thread is bit of a trainwreck already.

Trolling?

Wants more defensive system. On paper could be one of the "best"
Trades best defensive forward.

Defense is more than defensemen.

Possibly the only one who did more heavy lifting than Couts-- and wasn't appreciated for it *whatsoever* was Mr. Max, the suit, Talbot Supreme.

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06-11-2013, 03:47 PM
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Beef Invictus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
Thread is bit of a trainwreck already.

Trolling?

Wants more defensive system. On paper could be one of the "best"
Trades best defensive forward.

Defense is more than defensemen.

Possibly the only one who did more heavy lifting than Couts-- and wasn't appreciated for it *whatsoever* was Mr. Max, the suit, Talbot Supreme.
Fedotenko as well. As I recall he didn't face tough competition but he destroyed those he did face.

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06-11-2013, 04:16 PM
  #25
John Wayne Gretzky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
Thread is bit of a trainwreck already.

Trolling?

Wants more defensive system. On paper could be one of the "best"
Trades best defensive forward.

Defense is more than defensemen.

Possibly the only one who did more heavy lifting than Couts-- and wasn't appreciated for it *whatsoever* was Mr. Max, the suit, Talbot Supreme.

Adam Hall did surprisingly well after we picked him up.

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