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Old
06-11-2013, 10:58 AM
  #76
KingCanadain1976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Bernier may be better than Enroth -- though it's certainly debatable, since Enroth has similar career numbers behind a worse defensive team -- but the upgrade isn't anywhere near significant enough (if it is one) to be worth giving up Vanek unless the rest of the package has quality, need-filling pieces.
well i am trying to work with you on the package. Williams has to be one part. Maybe if i give you a list of players id be willing to include we can find a deal.

king
nolan
martinez
bernier
any prospect not named toffolli or forbert

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06-11-2013, 11:04 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
any prospect not named toffolli or forbert
Your not getting Thomas Vanek and have the words any prospect not named.You think we want your 3rd or 4th best prospect for an elite goal scorer?In a trade for Thomas Vanek, pretty much any prospect except a top 5 prospect would be available.Vanek is by far the most valuable player in either the trade market or free agent market.How many 35 goal scorers under 30 available?

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06-11-2013, 11:09 AM
  #78
KingCanadain1976
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
- Buffalo will take back Stoll in a salary move, over Williams

- every team has a few of their own Alec Martinez's, he holds little to no trade value. We moved TJ Brennan for a 5th rounder. Calling him "a young top 4" is quite laughable.

you put together a package of expendables... between Buffalo retaining salary on Vanek's deal, and taking Williams back, you basically upgrade williams to Vanek for free at the cost of you're backup goaltender and a depth defensemen... it was a terrible offer....

you're going to have to do better.

We'll take Williams or Stoll (salary dump) and retain 50% of Vanek salary, in effect giving you Vanek and no additional cost... but in return, it's going to cost Toffoli.
He was playing top four minutes on a top 8 defensive team and didnt look out of place untill he was injuryed. Saying its laughable to call him that is silly because he was playing it for a good part of the season. I think u need to actually watch him play a bit more. Just because he normally is playing as a 5 6 defenseman doesnt mean hes only got the talent to play there. La plays a offensive defensement with a defensive defensman. Is it his fault he cant get the other postion over slava voynov or drew doughty ?

next no we need to keep stoll becuase he awesome on the draw. We would get killed on it with out him See the shark vs kings series faceoff percentage if we have 25% without him id be surprized.

we need to keep toffolli to replace williams and keep salary down for a few years. See my list of people there is a deal that can be worked out im sure.

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06-11-2013, 11:14 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Your not getting Thomas Vanek and have the words any prospect not named.You think we want your 3rd or 4th best prospect for an elite goal scorer?In a trade for Thomas Vanek, pretty much any prospect except a top 5 prospect would be available.Vanek is by far the most valuable player in either the trade market or free agent market.How many 35 goal scorers under 30 available?
How many teams will be able to take on his contract for the future? I think a package of williams ( who can be flipped for a 1st and prospect ) Muzzin ( a rookie of the month this year defenseman) king a young nhl winger for the bottom 6 with 2nd experience. pearson 2nd line nhl ready winger is a pretty good offer for a player with one year on his contract I ask what offer oes buffalo have better?

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06-11-2013, 11:20 AM
  #80
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Williams/King/Muzzin isn't terrible. Total quality for quantity, and for that reason Buffalo probably ships Vanek to the place willing to part with a better prospect/player and scraps, but the value is finally about there.

Also, how much was Muzzin's good midseason run the product of Doughty? All of it?

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06-11-2013, 11:22 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
He was playing top four minutes on a top 8 defensive team and didnt look out of place untill he was injuryed. Saying its laughable to call him that is silly because he was playing it for a good part of the season.
He was 2nd last on your blueline in QoC
He was highest in Ozone Starts
He was a completely sheltered and protected linemate
He only played tough minutes/top 4 when you were slaughtered with injuries... that doesn't make him a top 4


Quote:
I think u need to actually watch him play a bit more.
nice try

Quote:
Just because he normally is playing as a 5 6 defenseman doesnt mean hes only got the talent to play there. La plays a offensive defensement with a defensive defensman. Is it his fault he cant get the other postion over slava voynov or drew doughty ?
With that criteria... you can call Jordan Nolan a top 6 winger. It's just lazy.

Alec Martinez is a borderline NHLer... every team has their version. He's worth very little.

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next no we need to keep stoll becuase he awesome on the draw. We would get killed on it with out him See the shark vs kings series faceoff percentage if we have 25% without him id be surprized.
fair enough

Quote:
we need to keep toffolli to replace williams and keep salary down for a few years. See my list of people there is a deal that can be worked out im sure.
you are upgrading williams to Vanek, and it's not increasing your cap at all.

anyways... your offer is no good.
LA/Buf don't make good trading partners if All LA wants to offer is row boats

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06-11-2013, 11:22 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
He was playing top four minutes on a top 8 defensive team and didnt look out of place untill he was injuryed. Saying its laughable to call him that is silly because he was playing it for a good part of the season. I think u need to actually watch him play a bit more. Just because he normally is playing as a 5 6 defenseman doesnt mean hes only got the talent to play there. La plays a offensive defensement with a defensive defensman. Is it his fault he cant get the other postion over slava voynov or drew doughty ?

next no we need to keep stoll becuase he awesome on the draw. We would get killed on it with out him See the shark vs kings series faceoff percentage if we have 25% without him id be surprized.

we need to keep toffolli to replace williams and keep salary down for a few years. See my list of people there is a deal that can be worked out im sure.
I don't see a deal that could be worked out with those prospects/players. What Jame's asking for is probably close to what I think it would take. I'd be willing to take on Williams to make the salary work and retain half of Vanek's cap hit but you'd have to give us something to make it worthwhile, meaning Toffoli has to be coming back. As far as Martinez is concerned I wouldn't go so far as to compare him to Brennan, but I don't think we'd have much use for him we have plenty of defenseman with his skillset on our team and in our system. Bernier does interest me some, but I think LA would get a better return on him somewhere else.

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06-11-2013, 11:26 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
well i am trying to work with you on the package. Williams has to be one part. Maybe if i give you a list of players id be willing to include we can find a deal.

king
nolan
martinez
bernier
any prospect not named toffolli or forbert
The thing is Williams has little to no value to Buffalo (his value in the deal is essentially to give LA the cap space for Vanek), and none of those pieces are worth near enough to make up the difference between Vanek and Bernier. You can't just take top prospects off the table and expect to get a deal done here. Vanek is still in his prime, just put up the best PPG season of his career, has scored 40+ goals twice, has never failed to reach 20 including the lockout-shortened season, and has never failed to reach 25 in a full season. This despite rarely averaging more than 17 minutes per game and never playing an actual top line center.

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06-11-2013, 11:26 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Williams/King/Muzzin isn't terrible. Total quality for quantity, and for that reason Buffalo probably ships Vanek to the place willing to part with a better prospect/player and scraps, but the value is finally about there.

Also, how much was Muzzin's good midseason run the product of Doughty? All of it?
well im not really the best to answer that question but to me not that much I saw muzzin only playing with drew on the pp even then mostly with slava on it. Which does allow jake to pinch more on pp. I could be wrong but jake played mostly on the 5th 6th pairing with 1 pp time Sometimes over drew. We needed to give drew some rest he was playing insane mins. Drew played most of his mins with regher when he got here. Also logged time with ellerby and suderi.

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06-11-2013, 11:33 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
He was 2nd last on your blueline in QoC
He was highest in Ozone Starts
He was a completely sheltered and protected linemate
He only played tough minutes/top 4 when you were slaughtered with injuries... that doesn't make him a top 4




nice try



With that criteria... you can call Jordan Nolan a top 6 winger. It's just lazy.

Alec Martinez is a borderline NHLer... every team has their version. He's worth very little.



fair enough



you are upgrading williams to Vanek, and it's not increasing your cap at all.

anyways... your offer is no good.
LA/Buf don't make good trading partners if All LA wants to offer is row boats
well when he played he didnt look out of place our d probelms were more suderi playing more mins than he can handle. Alec was fine as top four . Its not this year im worried about Its next year we also have brown and greene ufas so we have to keep toffolli as hes a cheaper option Also may need forbert to replace greene so we can afford to keep vanek and brown. I'm gambling on the cap going back up an thats not exactly garrented is it. Well i tryed I doubt my offer would be cool with king fans anyways peace

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06-11-2013, 11:41 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by is the answer jesus View Post
I don't see a deal that could be worked out with those prospects/players. What Jame's asking for is probably close to what I think it would take. I'd be willing to take on Williams to make the salary work and retain half of Vanek's cap hit but you'd have to give us something to make it worthwhile, meaning Toffoli has to be coming back. As far as Martinez is concerned I wouldn't go so far as to compare him to Brennan, but I don't think we'd have much use for him we have plenty of defenseman with his skillset on our team and in our system. Bernier does interest me some, but I think LA would get a better return on him somewhere else.

Im open to serveral offers would muzzin be better then martinez? Toffolli cant be in any deal we need him to help keep our salary level down and replace williams. I think buffalo needs to include williams trade value into consideration here he will get u two peices easy at the dealine also give you some valueable experience ( 2 cup wins) to teach ur kids There is alot more value there then ur giving credit hes not exactly a cap dump. fair enuff if u dont like martinez we can add muzzin instead ( to be honest i dont really want to give up alec Hes got the best insint on when to join the rush on the team imo) Also adding a player like king would help the rebuild faster. Hell if it helps add nolan to the list of avialable players.

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06-11-2013, 11:44 AM
  #87
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I like Vanek and maybe with Buffalo holding some salary we can work something out. But then what happens the next year with Vanek asking 7 million a year? The domino effect will be too great for us. A bottom feeder with cap space will make better offers, sucks for Vanek and the Kings though, he would put us in elite status for a long time. Damn cap!!!

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06-11-2013, 11:46 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
The thing is Williams has little to no value to Buffalo (his value in the deal is essentially to give LA the cap space for Vanek), and none of those pieces are worth near enough to make up the difference between Vanek and Bernier. You can't just take top prospects off the table and expect to get a deal done here. Vanek is still in his prime, just put up the best PPG season of his career, has scored 40+ goals twice, has never failed to reach 20 including the lockout-shortened season, and has never failed to reach 25 in a full season. This despite rarely averaging more than 17 minutes per game and never playing an actual top line center.
I think your wrong on him having value with his exeperience in the playoffs and in the nhl he would a great mentor for the younger sabres. Getting rid of miller and vanek leaves the team thin on experience imo. You will get a killing at the deadline if you decide to trade him. Hes worth a a propect and 1st easy to a playoff contender. Its not like hes a dump hes a first line player on a stanley cup champion team. That has alot of value league wide.

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06-11-2013, 11:51 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
well when he played he didnt look out of place our d probelms were more suderi playing more mins than he can handle. Alec was fine as top four .
Is this opinion shared by a large portion of your fan base?


Quote:
Its not this year im worried about Its next year we also have brown and greene ufas so we have to keep toffolli as hes a cheaper option Also may need forbert to replace greene so we can afford to keep vanek and brown. I'm gambling on the cap going back up an thats not exactly garrented is it. Well i tryed I doubt my offer would be cool with king fans anyways peace
You have 20 million in cap space the following season...

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06-11-2013, 11:54 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
I think your wrong on him having value with his exeperience in the playoffs and in the nhl he would a great mentor for the younger sabres. Getting rid of miller and vanek leaves the team thin on experience imo. You will get a killing at the deadline if you decide to trade him. Hes worth a a propect and 1st easy to a playoff contender. Its not like hes a dump hes a first line player on a stanley cup champion team. That has alot of value league wide.
There are much cheaper ways to get "mentors." The return for Vanek needs to have rebuild value. Period. He's our big trade chip and by far our best forward. If Williams is worth a good prospect and a 1st, then just give us a good prospect and a 1st. We actually need those; we have no need for Williams.

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06-11-2013, 11:54 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
Im open to serveral offers would muzzin be better then martinez? Toffolli cant be in any deal we need him to help keep our salary level down and replace williams. I think buffalo needs to include williams trade value into consideration here he will get u two peices easy at the dealine also give you some valueable experience ( 2 cup wins) to teach ur kids There is alot more value there then ur giving credit hes not exactly a cap dump. fair enuff if u dont like martinez we can add muzzin instead ( to be honest i dont really want to give up alec Hes got the best insint on when to join the rush on the team imo) Also adding a player like king would help the rebuild faster. Hell if it helps add nolan to the list of avialable players.
If Toffoli isn't on the table, there's really no deal here... Buffalo isn't interested in a package of expendables.

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06-11-2013, 11:58 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Is this opinion shared by a large portion of your fan base?




You have 20 million in cap space the following season...
I dont speak for my fan base but i would think so but getting the kings fan base to agree on something is a hard thing to do.

In the 20 million cap space you need to include the raises of slava suderi martinez muzzin lewis clifford ellerby bernier should we keep him plus adding in brown greene vanek mitchell ( should he be healthy) i dont think that will be alot left over to afford much else

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06-11-2013, 12:02 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Is this opinion shared by a large portion of your fan base?




You have 20 million in cap space the following season...
Yes and no. Scuderi was completely over worked during the regular season. He looked gassed. If everyone was healthy on our blue line this year our d would've been

Doughty-Mitchell
Scuderi-Voynov
Greene-Martinez
Drewiske

Now Martinez could be a top 4 defender along with Matt Greene but when those guys are in front of you you get pushed down a bit.

Unfortunately our d was beset by injuries. Martinez during the lockout, Mitchell in the offseason and Green one game in which necessitated trading for Regher and Ellerby and trading away Drewiske.

Doughty-Regher
Voynov-Scuderi
Muzzin-Ellerby
Martinez

Martinez has the talent to be a top 4 defender.


As far as the cap space for next season look at who needs to be resigned.

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06-11-2013, 12:03 PM
  #94
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There are much cheaper ways to get "mentors." The return for Vanek needs to have rebuild value. Period. He's our big trade chip and by far our best forward. If Williams is worth a good prospect and a 1st, then just give us a good prospect and a 1st. We actually need those; we have no need for Williams.
wow no way you find a mentor on a better contract then williams with his experience your really under estimating his value imo but ok fine. I guess you dont see the flip trade as a gain for u fine. Ill stop trying. but williams muzzin king pearson is a better team then with vanek I doubt u get a better offer.

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06-11-2013, 12:08 PM
  #95
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If Toffoli isn't on the table, there's really no deal here... Buffalo isn't interested in a package of expendables.
then theres no deal because for salary reasons we have to keep toffolli

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06-11-2013, 12:36 PM
  #96
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Vanek is too high profile a player (high salary) for the Kings to acquire. It would put the team into tight situations with players they want to retain.

I would rather have our younger guys and Williams. He's the glue out there, and the Kings are bound to get into another game 7 sooner or later.

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06-11-2013, 02:04 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Williams would be good as salary + top 6 + defense + cup leadership coming back to Buffalo, but he's not the centerpiece of the deal, Toffoli is or it's a non-starter.

Honestly, I think Ottawa's the call for Vanek, and I hate the prospect of seeing Karlsson feed him stretch passes for the next while. Smith + Silfverberg + pick/prospect.
Then it's a non starter and we can close.

To even get Lombardi listening in a Toffoli case you have to come up with something way better than Vanek.
Don't get me wrong he is not a bad player but no team can add
7.4 mill right now except the cap floor teams who are in rebuild them self. And these are not very likely to give up their future player for win now players

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06-11-2013, 02:20 PM
  #98
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Then it's a non starter and we can close.

To even get Lombardi listening in a Toffoli case you have to come up with something way better than Vanek.
Don't get me wrong he is not a bad player but no team can add
7.4 mill right now except the cap floor teams who are in rebuild them self. And these are not very likely to give up their future player for win now players
...such as?

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