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Old
06-11-2013, 03:18 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
The Coburn thing goes with the suggestive offer sheet to Piets, not saying that would happen, but if it did, you dump Coburn for a 2nd rounder.

From what I understand we can only buy out one guy this year, its a tough call on which one to buy out.

That defensive play we all fell in love with from Couturier was missing all season, and hes young, I get that, and I am never one to say trade away your young guys, but if it came to a straight up swap for Ryan, I do it 10 times out of 10. Who replaces Couts you say? Scott Laughton. I think he can play the same game, with more strength in the corners and forechecking ability.
If the stats are delved into Couts defensive stats were arguably better than last years, or at least even to them... he was in the top 5 in the NHL for hardest minutes played when own zone starts and quality of competition are looked into. He played more PK than most of those in that 'zone' of hard minutes as well, and with worse, more inconsistent linemates. Of players who played those kinds of minutes he was the best by far as well.

If the figures are looked at he matched up against pretty much every teams top line, night in, night out, and came out better than them in zone starts (top 5 highest zone gains in the league) and had a positive Corsi... and gets next to no penalties.

He also put up pretty much exactly the same PPG as last year, with worse linemates, on a worse team.

He is already a top defensive forward in this league (the stats would indicate he is among the top 15 forwards in the league in terms of defence, he was last year as well) and the best on our team by some way.

Can anyone think of the last time a guy in his first two years in the NHL was his teams best defensive player and most trusted on PK?

Laughton cannot replace what he does, he really cannot, as there are very few players in the league already who can.

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06-11-2013, 03:20 PM
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The problem I have with going to a defensive system is that we are going to see voracek, simmonds, and hartnell come back down to earth.

And unfortunately Giroux too. With the system we play giroux can score 90 plus a year, if we do a defensive system he will struggle to get 80.

I think Lavy's system has inflated our players value and if we go to a defensive system reality could really hurt.

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06-11-2013, 03:28 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Adam Hall did surprisingly well after we picked him up.
He did, I would not be against bringing him back... but I would rather go in for Boyd Gordon, he is one of the most underrated players in the NHL. 1.3 mill for what he does?! Yes please, RW and C, insanely good D, Pks very well and eats 3mins on Pk a night, and can get 20 points a year, as well as being immense on the dot, giving 15 mins ice time a game or more every game.

I'd give him up to 1.7 a year, he is a better defensively, worse offensively Max Talbot.

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06-11-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Agreed. I would love Torts. He is the same type of motivational guy, but he is a smart coach who doesn't take **** from primadonna players (which is why he was fired from what I have heard). Players that cannot handle the coach telling them what they are doing wrong are whats wrong with sports in general today. If you are playing bad and being paid upwards of 6 million dollars, you should be getting chewed out, and thats why the coach is getting paid his salary. Hell I'd even take Ruff.
Brad Richards. To a tee. Tortorella didn't hold him accountable at all this season, for whatever reason. He was porous, and kept getting chance, after chance, after chance, especially on the PP, )which looked eons better without him) until he was forced to scratch him in the final two games of the playoffs.

Tortorella IS a motivational hardass — but he DOES play favorites. I think the difference between Lavs and Torts is that one is offensively-focused, while the other is defensively focused.

FWIW, I do think Tortorella would be a great fit for the Flyers. His system is perfect for your team; size on the wings, depth at center, and your defense's weak-point (IMO) is the transition. In Tortorella's system, the transition game is essentially a series of winning board battles through the neutral zone, so the Flyers would find a lot of success there, in my opinion. The defense just needs to get the puck over the defensive blueline, and then rely on the wingers to outmuscle opposing players. Players like Simmonds, Hartnell, Feds, etc can do that.

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06-11-2013, 03:37 PM
  #30
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Preaching to the choir.

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06-11-2013, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Yep, I was told the same thing from Isles and Canes fans I am friends with, and it seems to be holding true.
So you claim the players get burnt out from Lavi after a couple years but in numerous posts have suggested hiring Torts, a guy who has also has a reputation for having a short shelf life, probably even worse than Lavi. If we're talking about a coach who is going to be buddy-buddy with everyone and never wear out his welcome the Flyers should just hire John Stevens again lol.

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06-11-2013, 03:52 PM
  #32
John Wayne Gretzky
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Originally Posted by Clyde Donovan View Post
So you claim the players get burnt out from Lavi after a couple years but in numerous posts have suggested hiring Torts, a guy who has also has a reputation for having a short shelf life, probably even worse than Lavi. If we're talking about a coach who is going to be buddy-buddy with everyone and never wear out his welcome the Flyers should just hire John Stevens again lol.
I stated the difference in Torts actually being able to coach a team and alter strategy mid game. Lavi has proven time and time again his inability to adjust the game. His only answer ever seems to be time outs (which worked will at the beginning of his tenure here) and changing lines, which never worked.

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06-11-2013, 03:59 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
I stated the difference in Torts actually being able to coach a team and alter strategy mid game. Lavi has proven time and time again his inability to adjust the game. His only answer ever seems to be time outs (which worked will at the beginning of his tenure here) and changing lines, which never worked.
What has Torts accomplished that makes him so much better than Lavi? Won a cup in 04 and has underachieved the past couple seasons with a stacked Rangers team. The only strategy I've seen from Torts is having his players collapse down at the hashmarks, block shots, and play a 6 goalie system while trying to get a PP goal or a lucky goal off the rush. I just don't see where Torts has shown he is so much better at adapting in game compared to Lavi. They actually seem pretty similiar to me except one is extremely defensive minded and the other is extremely offensive minded.

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06-11-2013, 04:09 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Clyde Donovan View Post
What has Torts accomplished that makes him so much better than Lavi? Won a cup in 04 and has underachieved the past couple seasons with a stacked Rangers team. The only strategy I've seen from Torts is having his players collapse down at the hashmarks, block shots, and play a 6 goalie system while trying to get a PP goal or a lucky goal off the rush. I just don't see where Torts has shown he is so much better at adapting in game compared to Lavi. They actually seem pretty similiar to me except one is extremely defensive minded and the other is extremely offensive minded.
Ehhh...I'm a Ranger fan, and I'll be the first to tell you that the Rangers haven't been "stacked" at all under Tortorella. The only team that should have finished in the top-4 was the 11-12 team, and, IMO, that team 'overachieved' slightly.

The roster this year was not optimal under the trade deadline when Slats moved Gaborik for Brassard/Moore/Dorsett. Richards was an abomination, and Gaborik decided to stop being useful. Callahan also played through the entire season with a torn labrum in his shoulder. The only players who were consistent up front were Hagelin, Nash, and Stepan. Frankly, I'm impressed with what Tortorella did for the first 30 games or so.

I think it all went downhill in the playoffs, though. His 'system' wasn't a very good fit for the team he was given. I think he'd work out wonderfully on the Flyers, but I think he'll be hired before Laviolette is released.

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06-11-2013, 04:13 PM
  #35
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I'm willing to give PL this last year. The team didn't have the luxury to implement the systematic changes to how we would play in the defensive zone because of the lockout. This year with a full offseason and preseason there will be no excuse. It's a make or break year for PL.

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06-11-2013, 05:05 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
I think Lavi is a problem in a sort of? I agree with some of your points and some of them I can't agree on. I think the issue with Lavi is he has his system of coaching in which his style is the style no matter what. So, when the Flyers have players that do not fit the system they play bad and look silly. Having defensemen that could move the puck is essential. With Pronger and Carle the Flyers were in the Cup Finals. I do not pin the playoffs of Bob on Lavi. Bob made comments (if I recall right) about not being mentally ready for the playoffs. Let in awful goals and was deactivated.
With that being said, if the Flyers management won't bring in Players who fit his system he needs to go.

In the Devils series the Flyers were outworked. Jagr and Briere were awful and killed the lines they were on. With no Pronger they couldn't get the puck out of their own zone. Also, Bryz actually played well in the Devils series, they were just pinned deep seemingly every game.

Trading Coburn doesn't seem to make sense to me. His value will be at its lowest. He also logs big minutes that you would have to replace. I think giving him another year is the best idea for quality asset management. He was awful this past season, but I suspect if you can change his role on the team as well as pair him with Grossman all season would be the best bet. Coburn is going to make mistakes if you stick him in his own zone and constantly force him to make short passes out of the corner, I think he is much better in the neutral zone letting him move around and pinch if he has too with Grossman covering.

I agree with trading Mesz. Flyers need his cap space. With a team tight against the cap every season, and Pronger on LTIR, you cant have an injury prone defensemen taking up that much cap coming in and out of the Lineup.

Trading Couts would be a big mistake. I like Ryan, I think he will even sign with the Flyers after next season. I just see it as if you trade Couts, it will be near impossible to find a defensive center as good as he will be. Would Ryan be that huge of an upgrade over Hartnell, Simmonds, and Voracek that it will turn this team into a cup contender by adding him? I'd much rather keep Couts, and make a play for Ryan in free agency.

I agree with buying out Briere. He is worth a fraction of his cap hit and is such a liability in the regular season his "clutchness" in the playoffs is

I would also would buyout Bryz if you bring in another goalie. Mason looked great with the Flyers, but making him the starter would be a huge risk. If say you traded Read for Bernier straight up, buying out Bryz makes a ton of sense. I would give Bryz one more season so his buyout isn't as bad and lets the Flyers take an extended look at Mason.

I would love Nurse at 11. Also I think Streit makes sense too, a 2 year deal would be ideal. 3 good puck movers in Kimmo, Streit, Gus, and 3 good stay at home defensemen. Assuming Kimmo retires you would still have Streit the following season to make the loss not at bad.
Kimmo-Schenn
Streit-Coburn
Gus-Grossman

Laughton should be called up and I imagine he will be. Akeson will have a chance to make the team as well. I think the Flyers bottom 6 will have a chance to be one of the best. Talbot, Laughton, Rinaldo, Akeson, McGinn, Gagne? Read? Couts? with Rosehill at 13th forward. I like Lauridsen. I think he can be a NHL defensemen. I just think he needs to improve with players similar to him, Coburn, Grossman, Schenn, all ahead of him.
Ryan still has 2 years left on his deal. But if i was going to trade for him my highest offer would be around Read + 2014 First + a lower pick or prospect like cousins.

I also like that defense for this year. I am someone who wants us to sign streit if we cant find a true number one which i dont think will happen

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06-11-2013, 06:57 PM
  #37
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We have been thru this how many times? Who do you want to coach this team? Lavi is a good coach. not his fault how the team was constructed and the goaltending has been inconsistent at best. Does he have his faults? Sure. 99 percent of the coaches do. But I still feel he is a good coach. going to a Rangers/Kings/Blues system isnt going to work with the roster in place.
Well guess what...Lavi's system doesn't fit this team either. Watching the press conference and listening to Dallas Eakins talk, I was so impressed by him. Saying that he takes nutrition serious, and so will his players. He benches his leading scorer in Kadri during the AHL season last year. How many times are we all screaming at the tv to get Briere off the ice when he is playing like garbage. Or playing Couts with 4th liners while other teams have their young offensive players playing with similar players. The fact that he HAS YET to change how we play against the NYR and Devils despite getting our butts kicked proves it even more. He does not adapt to the situation. He is good at timeouts when we are losing 3-0 though.

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06-11-2013, 07:23 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
The problem I have with going to a defensive system is that we are going to see voracek, simmonds, and hartnell come back down to earth.

And unfortunately Giroux too. With the system we play giroux can score 90 plus a year, if we do a defensive system he will struggle to get 80.

I think Lavy's system has inflated our players value and if we go to a defensive system reality could really hurt.
A defensive system isn't going to change the powerplay...which is where we score all our goals anyway. Our 5v5 play is the reason we didn't make the POs.

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06-11-2013, 07:24 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Agreed. I would love Torts. He is the same type of motivational guy, but he is a smart coach who doesn't take **** from primadonna players (which is why he was fired from what I have heard). Players that cannot handle the coach telling them what they are doing wrong are whats wrong with sports in general today. If you are playing bad and being paid upwards of 6 million dollars, you should be getting chewed out, and thats why the coach is getting paid his salary. Hell I'd even take Ruff.
Good God I think I'd slit my wrists if we hired him as our coach. He's such a whinely little *****. I bet he bleeds once a month for a week straight.


(sorry ladies)

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06-11-2013, 07:42 PM
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Bryz would be good in a defensive system? Of course as would any other goalie.

Hire Torts as coach? No way.

Trade Couts for Ryan? No way.

I believe these to be two awful ideas.

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06-12-2013, 04:16 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Clyde Donovan View Post
So you claim the players get burnt out from Lavi after a couple years but in numerous posts have suggested hiring Torts, a guy who has also has a reputation for having a short shelf life, probably even worse than Lavi. If we're talking about a coach who is going to be buddy-buddy with everyone and never wear out his welcome the Flyers should just hire John Stevens again lol.
It's not like we have to be set with a Coach for the next decade.

If they can get someone who can win them a cup within the next 3-4 years and dump him afterwards, I'm all in. The core of players will change over time as well.
Btw I'm not sold on Torts either.

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06-12-2013, 09:25 AM
  #42
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Torts is supposedly being courted by Dallas. Having said this I don't think Torts would be a good fit here beyond a couple of years maybe. His act would really wear thin here. I agree..a coach like Eakins would be more ideal but the Oilers snagged his butt and I suspect the Oilers will do well with him ..they have such a young and talented team.

Ruff apparently is being courted by the NYR...that leaves Vigneault and some others still dangling out there.

I do think the Flyers are making a mistake keeping Lavi...I do agree that I don't think he adjusts well. Key though is if the players still buy into him ..there was some indication this past season there was less cohesion among the players with respect to this. Again, he tried to institute a new wrinkle to the team D (extra layer) and the team was confused by it for most of the shortened season as Hartnell mentioned..hence the putrid 5 on 5 play.

Holmgren said he was going to investigate why the team was so inconsistent...he doesn't seem to be considering the coach who underachieved like the rest of the team. His constant line juggling and weird and arbitrary benchings were annoying. Also he didn't seem to have command of the bench....how many stupid too many men on the ice penalties did the Flyers get. Yeah it's the players responsibility to know when to get on and off the ice on line changes but also that is a discipline issue which was odd given how Lavi is such a taskmaster. Last season in post game press conferences Lavi looked as confused as his team looked 5 on 5...

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06-12-2013, 09:47 AM
  #43
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The problem I have with going to a defensive system is that we are going to see voracek, simmonds, and hartnell come back down to earth.

And unfortunately Giroux too. With the system we play giroux can score 90 plus a year, if we do a defensive system he will struggle to get 80.
I used to think that, now I'm not so sure. Alain Vigneault is a defensive minded coach and the Sedin twins put up great numbers in his system. Ryan Kesler, a Selke caliber forward, scored 40 goals in that system. Even a scrub like Alex Burrows put up good numbers. Good players will always put up good numbers, no matter the system used.

As well, when Giroux played with Gatineau in the QMJHL, he played under one of the best defensive coaches in Benoit Groulx. I don't see a defensive system hampering any of the good players. If anything, it might just make them better all around players and even more dangerous.


Quote:
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I think Lavy's system has inflated our players value and if we go to a defensive system reality could really hurt.
There's definitely an inflation in run and gun hockey. I think the biggest thing though is that the system has also created some laziness amongst the forwards in that they miss defensive assignments or they're less prone to back checking and maintaining positioning. That causes a big problem with the defensemen in that they're overloaded trying to compensate for the missed defensive assignments by the forwards.

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06-12-2013, 09:56 AM
  #44
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Lavy's system made 5 on 5 scoring like pulling teeth. A more defensive coach who could also run a good breakout would increase the scoring potential of our top forwards.

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06-12-2013, 10:27 AM
  #45
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Laviolette is not the problem, players need to start owning up for their mistakes and bring some JAM! the only consistent players on the team this year were Rinaldo, Voracek, Talbot, Fedetenko, L.Schenn and Mason. Mason played consistent while he was in Philly! Schenn and Rinaldo played solid all year putting up occasional points and HUGE HITS! Voracek was the only consistent scoring threat!

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06-12-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I used to think that, now I'm not so sure. Alain Vigneault is a defensive minded coach and the Sedin twins put up great numbers in his system. Ryan Kesler, a Selke caliber forward, scored 40 goals in that system. Even a scrub like Alex Burrows put up good numbers. Good players will always put up good numbers, no matter the system used.

As well, when Giroux played with Gatineau in the QMJHL, he played under one of the best defensive coaches in Benoit Groulx. I don't see a defensive system hampering any of the good players. If anything, it might just make them better all around players and even more dangerous.




There's definitely an inflation in run and gun hockey. I think the biggest thing though is that the system has also created some laziness amongst the forwards in that they miss defensive assignments or they're less prone to back checking and maintaining positioning. That causes a big problem with the defensemen in that they're overloaded trying to compensate for the missed defensive assignments by the forwards.
Carter finished 4th in the league in goals on LA; Nash was 10th on the Rangers. I agree.

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06-12-2013, 10:29 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post


There's definitely an inflation in run and gun hockey. I think the biggest thing though is that the system has also created some laziness amongst the forwards in that they miss defensive assignments or they're less prone to back checking and maintaining positioning. That causes a big problem with the defensemen in that they're overloaded trying to compensate for the missed defensive assignments by the forwards.
I posted Hartnell's comments post season about how Lavi's adjusted system with the new wrinkle (extra layer of D) confused the team 5 on 5. I can't seem to find it but I thought it was interesting how he framed it. Basically, he said it was an issue of "should I stay or should I go." Is it go go go attack hockey or was it backcheck more. 5 on 5 they definitely didn't know how to break out but they also didn't have the personnel especially on the back end. I mean we had no PMD besides Timonen. Our forwards also lack breakout ability from a skating perspective besides Jake and Giroux and maybe Read?? I mean B Schenn and Simmonds were turnover prone in the neutral zone that is for sure. JVR was good in Lavi's system when healthy and motivated but unfortunately we needed a D man..too bad Schenn isn't a PMD....

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06-12-2013, 10:32 AM
  #48
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The problem I have with going to a defensive system is that we are going to see voracek, simmonds, and hartnell come back down to earth.

And unfortunately Giroux too. With the system we play giroux can score 90 plus a year, if we do a defensive system he will struggle to get 80.

I think Lavy's system has inflated our players value and if we go to a defensive system reality could really hurt.
I totally agree, good call! i believe a few defensive pieces wouldnt hurt!

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06-12-2013, 06:42 PM
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Ryan still has 2 years left on his deal. But if i was going to trade for him my highest offer would be around Read + 2014 First + a lower pick or prospect like cousins.

I also like that defense for this year. I am someone who wants us to sign streit if we cant find a true number one which i dont think will happen
I didn't realize Ryan had 2 years left. I thought it was only 1.

Looks like we will get our wish for that defense.. lol

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06-12-2013, 06:53 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Agreed. I would love Torts. He is the same type of motivational guy, but he is a smart coach who doesn't take **** from primadonna players (which is why he was fired from what I have heard). Players that cannot handle the coach telling them what they are doing wrong are whats wrong with sports in general today. If you are playing bad and being paid upwards of 6 million dollars, you should be getting chewed out, and thats why the coach is getting paid his salary. Hell I'd even take Ruff.
Cannot believe anyone is advocating for Torts. He would absolutely kill the development of Couturier, Schenn and Laughton. The guy is a total dick.

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