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Maybe Torts Wasn't the Problem

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06-11-2013, 03:45 PM
  #276
Jersey Girl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
On thing I really find humorous is people complaining about entertainment value. Legitimately I feel a solid percentage of people have this as their #1 gripe. You know what I find to be lacking in entertainment value? Watching teams that look like they're hung over from the night before. Watching teams who put in as much effort as Vince Young on the Wonderlic test. Nothing screams lack of entertainment value like not even setting the DVR for games in March and April because the Rangers are eliminated from playoff contention.

Both of those issues existed to various extents before Torts got here and improved in spades during his tenure. Look I'm not a sadist. I would love to watch a team that is top-10 in GF. I would love to watch a team that plays like Chicago, Pittsburgh, hell even the Islanders.

One thing, however that any of the system overhaul posters have not concretely addressed is, what SPECIFICALLY can the Rangers hope to achieve with new tactics? Ironically the best offensive season from a Ranger team in the last decade + was last season (11th in the league on scoring). Funny that stat gets glossed over. Guess the goals weren't pretty enough.

With a new coach, can we expect this roster to be top-10 in GF next year? Will a new coach make Stepan a consistent 80 pt player, Brassard a 60 pt + player? Zuke a 60 pt player? I have a tough time seeing Hagelin and Callahan improving too significantly. Will Kreider step up and score 50+ points? You'd need some combination of that to crack top-10 in GF. Possible, certainly with a better PP. Call me a cynic but I'm not completely sold.

Then there is that other pesky side of the puck. What SPECIFIC impact will system adjustments have on total GA? The Rangers are blessed to have the best goalie in the league no doubt. I have little doubt that even with 5 odd man rushes a night the Rangers could still finish top-10 in GA. Will they still be consistently top-5? What impact will not having collapsed wingers have on odd man opportunities down low and along the half boards? Will the dmen get exposed? I think you can't rule it out. And what impact will moving from 15 to 10 in GF and 5 to 10 in GA ultimately have on WINS? Oh I forgot some of you only care about entertainment...

One last thing that I never, and I mean never see addressed is the ice at MSG. Consistently voted the worst to bottom 3 in the league in player polls. Think that factored into the dump and chase gameplan? Think that's a reason why the Rangers had success with that strategy? I do. Not THE reason but A reason. Along with the roster...

I definitely get the sentiment that Torts abrasive ways may have worn stale. I would never mentor someone working for me like that, all or even the majority of the time. There are only so many times you can effectively press the hardass button and get results. I get that. But let's not piss all over the guys grave here. He did a lot more than most and the grass isn't always greener.


Well said

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06-11-2013, 03:53 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Not on this board. MOST were born in those years.

Torts simply exhosted his options. What Slats was supposed to do? Extend him for another 3 years in next Jan? Not to extend? You cannot have a lame duck coach.
Got to keep progressing. Torts got them as far as he could with what he had both players on ice and his philo's. Time to move on and get someone else that can perhaps take these guys further

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06-11-2013, 03:58 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Playing hard should never be criticized. Consider that that team was not supposed to be anywhere near that good and take into account that such a strict system was the only way that team could win.
True...this team needs better players to win.

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06-11-2013, 06:41 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
...
Quote:
Playing hard should never be criticized.
Agree

Quote:
Consider that that team was not supposed to be anywhere near that good [...]
Agree, judge fairly on the merits, the team as it was, not better or worse than it really was.

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and take into account that such a strict system was the only way that team could win.
Disagree.
If the system is a loser, you don't do it. PERIOD.
This system depleted us by and into, throughout playoffs.
Guys got hurt and played injured unnecessarily throughout the year w/excessive shot blocking that put us out of position.

No, the system is on Torts. Totally.
You at least start with a workable system and modify it as you add better players to get a custom fit.

Torts did not do that. He wanted the players to break to him and his system.
Another friggin Cat Francis.
Buh-bye.

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06-11-2013, 08:08 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
Torts was part of the problem.
If the Rangers got rid of everyone that was part of the problem, you'd have no upper management, no coaching staff, and would be left with a starting goalie and maybe 3-4 skaters.

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06-11-2013, 08:58 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Guys got hurt and played injured unnecessarily throughout the year w/excessive shot blocking that put us out of position.
Which players were injured as a result of the system?

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06-11-2013, 09:25 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
If the Rangers got rid of everyone that was part of the problem, you'd have no upper management, no coaching staff, and would be left with a starting goalie and maybe 3-4 skaters.
There really is no 100% solution in a cap world. But the problems lie everywhere. Players, style of coaching, GM decisions, etc. Who thing was so back ass wards for a long time. But what I meant was that he was part of why the Rangers sucked at scoring in addition to players' lack of ability to finish. I think the system in the neutral and offensive zone he played hindered some offense. No gripes about defense except for how disorganized they'd get out there.

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06-11-2013, 10:23 PM
  #283
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Identify the teams strengths and weaknesses first ......then find a coach that can work with them. New York is a meat grinder market with the press and the internal pressure of the market. Gameplan a real identity and flourish from then on. Strong team leadership and dressing room makes a team viable long term.

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06-12-2013, 01:44 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
If the Rangers got rid of everyone that was part of the problem, you'd have no upper management, no coaching staff, and would be left with a starting goalie and maybe 3-4 skaters.
Lol! You are 100% correct sir.

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06-12-2013, 01:45 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
Got to keep progressing. Torts got them as far as he could with what he had both players on ice and his philo's. Time to move on and get someone else that can perhaps take these guys further
Perhaps dear old Scotty Bowman is available?

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06-12-2013, 02:43 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Which players were injured as a result of the system?
I'm sure that in all but the most and strictest legal sense of the word, where I have direct personal first hand knowledge, that not withstanding, several Fs joined the Ds in taking lumps. Don't remember if it was this year or last, somebody got a cracked ankle (or similar, not claiming to be a Dr.), and I believe anybody who has the time and wants to go through the posts will find known or believed injury, past nominal black and blue bruises to playing while hurt.

Some of that, we understand, is inherent in the game and comes with the turf.
But let's not have a system that exacerbates the problem.

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06-12-2013, 03:30 PM
  #287
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The way people talk about the Rangers shot blocking style you'd think they'd be the clear cut leader in blocked shots. The Islanders have blocked more shots than the Rangers over the past few seasons and you don't really hear anyone talk about it.

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06-12-2013, 04:17 PM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
On thing I really find humorous is people complaining about entertainment value. Legitimately I feel a solid percentage of people have this as their #1 gripe. You know what I find to be lacking in entertainment value? Watching teams that look like they're hung over from the night before. Watching teams who put in as much effort as Vince Young on the Wonderlic test. Nothing screams lack of entertainment value like not even setting the DVR for games in March and April because the Rangers are eliminated from playoff contention.

Both of those issues existed to various extents before Torts got here and improved in spades during his tenure. Look I'm not a sadist. I would love to watch a team that is top-10 in GF. I would love to watch a team that plays like Chicago, Pittsburgh, hell even the Islanders.

One thing, however that any of the system overhaul posters have not concretely addressed is, what SPECIFICALLY can the Rangers hope to achieve with new tactics? Ironically the best offensive season from a Ranger team in the last decade + was last season (11th in the league on scoring). Funny that stat gets glossed over. Guess the goals weren't pretty enough.

With a new coach, can we expect this roster to be top-10 in GF next year? Will a new coach make Stepan a consistent 80 pt player, Brassard a 60 pt + player? Zuke a 60 pt player? I have a tough time seeing Hagelin and Callahan improving too significantly. Will Kreider step up and score 50+ points? You'd need some combination of that to crack top-10 in GF. Possible, certainly with a better PP. Call me a cynic but I'm not completely sold.

Then there is that other pesky side of the puck. What SPECIFIC impact will system adjustments have on total GA? The Rangers are blessed to have the best goalie in the league no doubt. I have little doubt that even with 5 odd man rushes a night the Rangers could still finish top-10 in GA. Will they still be consistently top-5? What impact will not having collapsed wingers have on odd man opportunities down low and along the half boards? Will the dmen get exposed? I think you can't rule it out. And what impact will moving from 15 to 10 in GF and 5 to 10 in GA ultimately have on WINS? Oh I forgot some of you only care about entertainment...

One last thing that I never, and I mean never see addressed is the ice at MSG. Consistently voted the worst to bottom 3 in the league in player polls. Think that factored into the dump and chase gameplan? Think that's a reason why the Rangers had success with that strategy? I do. Not THE reason but A reason. Along with the roster...

I definitely get the sentiment that Torts abrasive ways may have worn stale. I would never mentor someone working for me like that, all or even the majority of the time. There are only so many times you can effectively press the hardass button and get results. I get that. But let's not piss all over the guys grave here. He did a lot more than most and the grass isn't always greener.
Didn't leave much for me to say. I agree with this 100%

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06-12-2013, 05:31 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
I'm sure that in all but the most and strictest legal sense of the word, where I have direct personal first hand knowledge, that not withstanding, several Fs joined the Ds in taking lumps. Don't remember if it was this year or last, somebody got a cracked ankle (or similar, not claiming to be a Dr.), and I believe anybody who has the time and wants to go through the posts will find known or believed injury, past nominal black and blue bruises to playing while hurt.

Some of that, we understand, is inherent in the game and comes with the turf.
But let's not have a system that exacerbates the problem.
Sounds like not one player was hurt as a result of the system.

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06-12-2013, 05:56 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Sounds like not one player was hurt as a result of the system.
How recently do you mean? Callahan broke his leg, Zuccarello broke his wrist, Dubinsky broke his hand, I think, John Mitchell took a slapshot directly to the face...there's a reason they started wearing those protective skate guards and extra padded gloves.

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06-12-2013, 06:59 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Sweet Gerald View Post
How recently do you mean? Callahan broke his leg, Zuccarello broke his wrist, Dubinsky broke his hand, I think, John Mitchell took a slapshot directly to the face...there's a reason they started wearing those protective skate guards and extra padded gloves.
Thank you!
Just because I didn't have a laundry list ready with specific names and the damages does not mean there were no injuries.

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06-12-2013, 07:00 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Sounds like not one player was hurt as a result of the system.
Sounds like someone wants to infer if I choose not to name a specific person, then it could not possibly be that anyone ever got hurt


.... but several did

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06-12-2013, 08:02 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Sounds like someone wants to infer if I choose not to name a specific person, then it could not possibly be that anyone ever got hurt


.... but several did
So every time a guy gets hit with a puck in the defensive zone, it's automatically Torts' fault. Does that mandate work for the rest of the players around the league who got hurt this season, too?

Cause, ya know, the Rangers were the only team in the league that blocked any shots. All other teams banned that practice decades ago, right?


Now if you were to argue the overuse of the top two lines led to fatigue and injuries, then you'd actually have a legitimate argument.

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06-12-2013, 08:34 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Sweet Gerald View Post
How recently do you mean? Callahan broke his leg, Zuccarello broke his wrist, Dubinsky broke his hand, I think, John Mitchell took a slapshot directly to the face...there's a reason they started wearing those protective skate guards and extra padded gloves.
I saw the play where Zuccarello broke his wrist--it's a play that happens all the time in the NHL--and I'm sure no one give instructions to players to block shots with their hands. And who hasn't seen a player limp off or even worse, "swim" off the ice after getting hit with either a shot or taking a hit from another player. It's a dangerous game.

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06-12-2013, 11:27 PM
  #295
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Some Rangers fans don't want shot blocking, demand an "offensive system", and at the time say that defense shouldn't be sacrificed.

Shot blocking and collapsing your forwards is good fundamental hockey.

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06-12-2013, 11:38 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Some Rangers fans don't want shot blocking, demand an "offensive system", and at the time say that defense shouldn't be sacrificed.

Shot blocking and collapsing your forwards is good fundamental hockey.
It really isn't. When the team has a defense as good and well-rounded as the Rangers, they shoouldn't be collapsing down low and deflecting shots on their own net.

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06-13-2013, 12:07 AM
  #297
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It really isn't. When the team has a defense as good and well-rounded as the Rangers, they shoouldn't be collapsing down low and deflecting shots on their own net.
The Bruins collapse their forwards. Don't hear anyone complaining about Julien.

Yes, some shots get deflected in, it's inevitable. Lundqvist gave up a lot of deflection goals when Renney was the coach, too. At the end of the day the shot blocking system did a lot more good than bad. Look at Lundqvist's stats, it's no coincidence why Lundqvist had the best statistical season of his career last year.

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06-13-2013, 12:10 AM
  #298
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
The Bruins collapse their forwards. Don't hear anyone complaining about Julien.

Yes, some shots get deflected in, it's inevitable. Lundqvist gave up a lot of deflection goals when Renney was the coach, too. At the end of the day the shot blocking system did a lot more good than bad. Look at Lundqvist's stats, it's no coincidence why Lundqvist had the best statistical season of his career last year.
Before the lockout, Lundy stated that he has made adjustment with his stance(thanks to Alliare) which was standing more upright than past years to prevent high glove side goals and more stick check attempts.

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06-13-2013, 12:16 AM
  #299
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Originally Posted by M0rbid View Post
Before the lockout, Lundy stated that he has made adjustment with his stance(thanks to Alliare) which was standing more upright than past years and more stick check attempts.
1. When did he make the change?

2. Am I supposed to believe that this minor change is the real reason why Hank's numbers shot up significantly while playing for Tortorella?

The shot blocking works. There are numerous times in a game where a really good shot gets saved by a defensemen and not Lundqvist.

I pointed this out earlier, the Rangers shot blocking can't even be called excessive. The Islanders have blocked more shots over the last few season.

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06-13-2013, 12:17 AM
  #300
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
1. When did he make the change?

2. Am I supposed to believe that this minor change is the real reason why Hank's numbers shot up significantly while playing for Tortorella?

The shot blocking works. There are numerous times in a game where a really good shot gets saved by a defensemen and not Lundqvist.

I pointed this out earlier, the Rangers shot blocking can't even be called excessive. The Islanders have blocked more shots over the last few season.

He's been working on it since few years ago. He said it himself.

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