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Dustin Byfuglien to Toronto.

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Old
06-11-2013, 01:50 PM
  #51
JetsHomer
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
is that a joke? Have you seen buff skate? his vision and skating abilities, as well as defensive reliability are much much much worse then gardiners. That statement is actually so arrogant, its unbelievable. The guy has been a minus player his whole career in the NHL, and gardiners ceiling is much higher then buffs. Gardiner was magic last year, and he was magic in the playoffs, You hold onto buff and we will hold onto gardiner and revisit this thread next year. On a strong playoff team, can you honestly say that offensive output trumps defensive play in any context in the playoffs, where every game is basically a 1 goal game? the answer is no. The guy has a great slap shot, but all of his defensive minuses make him as a player MUCH less compelling. On a team with one of the worst goals against in the league, you have to look at defensive stability going forward, and you cant do that with defensive liabilities.
Haha man take off your homer glasses. Buff is worse defensively than Gardiner? Is this real life?

Gardiner gets exposed defensively way more than Buff. and he plays far easier minutes

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06-11-2013, 01:51 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
All the false things people say about Phaneuf as a player to say he's not elite, are actually true about Buff.
False.

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06-11-2013, 01:52 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Haha man take off your home glasses. Buff is worse defensively than Gardiner? Is this real life?
Did you watch the playoffs? 1 player is a career - and 1 player is a career +, lets play match the stat with the player for a minute here. Gardiner has the ability to skate out of trouble and breakout, if you honestly think buff's skating is better then gardiners, idn what to say.

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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Haha man take off your homer glasses. Buff is worse defensively than Gardiner? Is this real life?

Gardiner gets exposed defensively way more than Buff. and he plays far easier minutes
LOL, he played a whole season with dion and was a plus player, and is going to play 24 + mins a night next year as well. next excuse please


Last edited by piqued: 06-11-2013 at 06:15 PM. Reason: merge
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06-11-2013, 01:55 PM
  #54
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The thing about Gardiner is he's very young and has shown glimpses of easily, being the best PP qb on our special teams when he's been healthy (i.e playoffs).

He's got to be stronger on the boards (and this may have to be potentially mitigated by his partner- Franson has shown to hold his own) but with the way he skates, he has an absolutely dominant possession game that can only be matched by a handful of d-men in this league. When you have notorious leaf haters like Hughson and Simpson drooling over a leafs player, you know you have something special.

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06-11-2013, 01:56 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
Did you watch the playoffs? 1 player is a career - and 1 player is a career +, lets play match the stat with the player for a minute here. Gardiner has the ability to skate out of trouble and breakout, if you honestly think buff's skating is better then gardiners, idn what to say.
Yes I watched Gardiner play decent hockey for 5 games. How about all his other games? Plus minus is a joke stat BTW.

When I said Buff is better I meant offensively and defensively and physical play. Buff also has one of the best breakout passes in the league, while being a good skater. How many times have you even watched him in the last two years?

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06-11-2013, 01:58 PM
  #56
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I don't think the Leafs could afford Buff. With the raising gas prices, hauling his 300+ pound butt around on road games/paying for the extra seat on the plane would be pretty expensive.

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06-11-2013, 02:00 PM
  #57
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this is interesting.

Those rallying against buff are a litle miguided, he is not the defensive liability they say he is. Sure, he's not chara or anything, but he's not this giant defensive terd people make him out to be.

he had the highest corsi rel on his team of dmen besides the insanely sheltered paul postma, meaning he helped put more shots on the other teams net then he allowed on his own.

is he defensive stalwart? no. is he nick lidstrom with his stick work? no. but he's also not matt green circa 2008.

the 300 lbs thing is a rumor, from a hockey buzz blogger, regurgitated by the winnipeg version of Damein Cox.

I can see not seeing him as a fit for toronto, but the vitrol isn't helping your cause.

He's not nearly as bad as you've made him out to be. He's considerably more inpactful in positive ways then he's been made out to be (3 all star game invites, top 10 in d scoring twice including 2nd last year with 15 less games, 11tht his year).

He's simply notTHAT bad in the d zone to make him some massive liability. going off relative placing, he'd have to be 2nd worst in the d zone in the league to make him "average" overall. He's simply not THAT bad.

His weakneses are well documented, but they aren't nearly as major or inhibiting as some of you are making them out to be.

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06-11-2013, 02:02 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
LOL, he played a whole season with dion and was a plus player, and is going to play 24 + mins a night next year as well. next excuse please
do you know what this is?


http://www.behindthenet.com

if not, it's not really worth getting into this.

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06-11-2013, 02:03 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Yes I watched Gardiner play decent hockey for 5 games. How about all his other games? Plus minus is a joke stat BTW.

When I said Buff is better I meant offensively and defensively and physical play. Buff also has one of the best breakout passes in the league, while being a good skater. How many times have you even watched him in the last two years?
The only time in the last 3 years gardiner has played like an average/bad player is when he was post concussion for about 2 weeks after returning to the nhl, hes been amazing ever since. If you think gardiner played "decent" in 5 games..... gardiner was the best player on the ice in the last couple games of that series, and he was great throughout.
Ive probably watched him 15 times in the past 2 years, and his defensive skills arent better then gardiners, and his skating most certainly is not. He is great on the pp and has a good shot, this whole thread is about defensive play and attitude, that is where/why he wont fit in, in toronto, he has a bad mentality and is out of shape in my opnion, and dion already plays the role of "untimely mental lapser" on this team already, and we dont need another 1.

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06-11-2013, 02:04 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
this is interesting.

Those rallying against buff are a litle miguided, he is not the defensive liability they say he is. Sure, he's not chara or anything, but he's not this giant defensive terd people make him out to be.

he had the highest corsi rel on his team of dmen besides the insanely sheltered paul postma, meaning he helped put more shots on the other teams net then he allowed on his own.

is he defensive stalwart? no. is he nick lidstrom with his stick work? no. but he's also not matt green circa 2008.

the 300 lbs thing is a rumor, from a hockey buzz blogger, regurgitated by the winnipeg version of Damein Cox.

I can see not seeing him as a fit for toronto, but the vitrol isn't helping your cause.

He's not nearly as bad as you've made him out to be. He's considerably more inpactful in positive ways then he's been made out to be (3 all star game invites, top 10 in d scoring twice including 2nd last year with 15 less games, 11tht his year).

He's simply notTHAT bad in the d zone to make him some massive liability. going off relative placing, he'd have to be 2nd worst in the d zone in the league to make him "average" overall. He's simply not THAT bad.

His weakneses are well documented, but they aren't nearly as major or inhibiting as some of you are making them out to be.
Agreed.
Any Leafs fan who says they don't want him on our team is crazy BUT the brass tax is, he's not a need right now.
Glaring needs;
1: lunch-pail (buff pun intended) #2/3 defensive dman.
2: #1C

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06-11-2013, 02:06 PM
  #61
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buf + a cheesecake for franson, so he can have something to eat on the plane

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06-11-2013, 02:06 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by sokocanuck View Post
Agreed.
Any Leafs fan who says they don't want him on our team is crazy BUT the brass tax is, he's not a need right now.
Glaring needs;
1: lunch-pail (buff pun intended) #2/3 defensive dman.
2: #1C
and that is a more then fair assessment.

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06-11-2013, 02:07 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
this is interesting.

Those rallying against buff are a litle miguided, he is not the defensive liability they say he is. Sure, he's not chara or anything, but he's not this giant defensive terd people make him out to be.

he had the highest corsi rel on his team of dmen besides the insanely sheltered paul postma, meaning he helped put more shots on the other teams net then he allowed on his own.

is he defensive stalwart? no. is he nick lidstrom with his stick work? no. but he's also not matt green circa 2008.

the 300 lbs thing is a rumor, from a hockey buzz blogger, regurgitated by the winnipeg version of Damein Cox.

I can see not seeing him as a fit for toronto, but the vitrol isn't helping your cause.

He's not nearly as bad as you've made him out to be. He's considerably more inpactful in positive ways then he's been made out to be (3 all star game invites, top 10 in d scoring twice including 2nd last year with 15 less games, 11tht his year).

He's simply notTHAT bad in the d zone to make him some massive liability. going off relative placing, he'd have to be 2nd worst in the d zone in the league to make him "average" overall. He's simply not THAT bad.

His weakneses are well documented, but they aren't nearly as major or inhibiting as some of you are making them out to be.
k even if we believe all of that, he still doesnt fit in toronto, thats the main issue. You can say what you want, but he does not have the defense first mentality, and his attitude against the coaching staff wont fare well here. I think you need to understand randy a bit more to get it honestly, if the d make any defensive lapses within reason, its basically a scratch for a game or 2, and RC has no problems playing an under qualified AHL'er over him without thinking twice about skill level.

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06-11-2013, 02:14 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by sokocanuck View Post
Agreed.
Any Leafs fan who says they don't want him on our team is crazy BUT the brass tax is, he's not a need right now.
Glaring needs;
1: lunch-pail (buff pun intended) #2/3 defensive dman.
2: #1C
But the cost of having Buff isn't even remotely close to being worth JVR/Kadri/Lupul/Gardiner. Those are pieces you'd be willing to move for Bogosian, not Buff (I understand Jet fans aren't moving him). We could make a laundry list of players we'd take on the leafs but does it really matter about the context if we're not considering the cost/return ratio?

I could see a similar argument for Franson being a better option than Buff- just because of the excessive risk Buff brings moving forward and Franson's progressive development thus far- where he was on pace for 50ppg + league leader in hits. I won't deny Buff is the better player at this point in their careers but trading a developing player for a guy who has had poor character issues along with a troubling physique and potentially, a poor contract moving forward is not something this leafs team should entertain- depending on what assets we would have to give. Point being, it isn't just that Buff doesn't fit a need, we're talking about a player who can significantly affect the culture of this team moving forward. Sorry to break it to Jet fans- but Buff is one of those players where his skills on the ice are overshadowed by a multitude of other things- whether that be contract, physique, or his actions off the ice.

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06-11-2013, 02:16 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
this is interesting.

Those rallying against buff are a litle miguided, he is not the defensive liability they say he is. Sure, he's not chara or anything, but he's not this giant defensive terd people make him out to be.

he had the highest corsi rel on his team of dmen besides the insanely sheltered paul postma, meaning he helped put more shots on the other teams net then he allowed on his own.

is he defensive stalwart? no. is he nick lidstrom with his stick work? no. but he's also not matt green circa 2008.

the 300 lbs thing is a rumor, from a hockey buzz blogger, regurgitated by the winnipeg version of Damein Cox.

I can see not seeing him as a fit for toronto, but the vitrol isn't helping your cause.

He's not nearly as bad as you've made him out to be. He's considerably more inpactful in positive ways then he's been made out to be (3 all star game invites, top 10 in d scoring twice including 2nd last year with 15 less games, 11tht his year).

He's simply notTHAT bad in the d zone to make him some massive liability. going off relative placing, he'd have to be 2nd worst in the d zone in the league to make him "average" overall. He's simply not THAT bad.

His weakneses are well documented, but they aren't nearly as major or inhibiting as some of you are making them out to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sokocanuck View Post
Agreed.
Any Leafs fan who says they don't want him on our team is crazy BUT the brass tax is, he's not a need right now.
Glaring needs;
1: lunch-pail (buff pun intended) #2/3 defensive dman.
2: #1C
Exactly. It's one thing to say a player doesn't fit a need, or that a team can't spend assets on a certain player. Heck, there are tonnes of great LW in the league, but the Jets can't spend any assets on one if someone offered us one while we have Ladd and Kane and other needs.

Trying to tear a guy down, and acting like someone isn't "good enough" for their team, even with all the points that Grind mentioned (highest corsi rel on his team of dmen, 3 all star game invites, top 10 in d scoring twice including 2nd last year with 15 less games, 11tht his year, etc) seems childish.

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06-11-2013, 02:16 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
k even if we believe all of that, he still doesnt fit in toronto, thats the main issue. You can say what you want, but he does not have the defense first mentality, and his attitude against the coaching staff wont fare well here. I think you need to understand randy a bit more to get it honestly, if the d make any defensive lapses within reason, its basically a scratch for a game or 2, and RC has no problems playing an under qualified AHL'er over him without thinking twice about skill level.

I'm sorry, where did i highlight my ignorance as to randy's system or penchant for benching d men?

I'm pretty sure all i said was if you don't think he'd fit the system then that's fair.


And if that's the case, then no problem.


My main issue came with the giant list of assumptions you made on byfuglien which were not accurate.


I made no such asssumptions about carlyle or the maple leafs. A simple, he wouldn't fit the system, would have done nicely.

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06-11-2013, 02:41 PM
  #67
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um, is it too much to ask for a professional hockey player to be in shape? That kills your whole argument. Instead of trying to pretend that you are smarter then people, maybe you should actually look at it through a rationale view. Every player has issues, his are centered around shape, attitude, and defensive reliability, toronto wants non of that, and we are most certainly not giving up a jvr/lupul/kadri for it. If you think im being mean or ignorant, I suggest that you stay away from bad toronto proposals, as I am going to comment rationally every time. You cant just say, oh were going to trade player x to you for player y, just out of skill set, you have to look at it rationally. Toronto is defensively structured while playing a strong skating game, Buffs physique and mentality do not play into that, it has nothing to do with his skill level.
I was disputing the diction and tone of your post, not the content. Posts like yours incite petty bickering for pages and pages.


Last edited by piqued: 06-11-2013 at 06:10 PM. Reason: unnecessary
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06-11-2013, 06:00 PM
  #68
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I'm sorry, where did i highlight my ignorance as to randy's system or penchant for benching d men?
I'm pretty sure all i said was if you don't think he'd fit the system then that's fair.
And if that's the case, then no problem.
My main issue came with the giant list of assumptions you made on byfuglien which were not accurate.
I made no such asssumptions about carlyle or the maple leafs. A simple, he wouldn't fit the system, would have done nicely.
If some1 makes a generic question or statement like "do you like the color green" and you answer no, its just instinct to receive an explanation. In this context, I said that I dont think he would be a good fit in the system and the RC coaching style because he has a very low tolerance of defensive breakdowns/giveaways and that the toronto d system is very abnormal with respect to playtime and game time decisions. Ive said many times that I think he is a good offensive D and he fits the jets style, but I also said that a large source of their problems was the fact that the jets gets scored on too much. The only thing that I directly said about buff is that I think his physique needs a lot of work and that he wouldnt fit the system in his current state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
I was disputing the diction and tone of your post, not the content. Posts like yours incite petty bickering for pages and pages.
Tone means nothing, the content is everything, all I have stated in this particular form is that I did not think buff was a good fit for toronto and I listed the reasons why I thought that way. The 2 issues that I have are the evaluation of his worth, and the state of physique that he is in. I dont understand why you need to make this into some personal drama, just stick to talking hockey facts and we could have an actual constructive conversation.


Last edited by piqued: 06-11-2013 at 06:12 PM. Reason: merge / qep
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06-11-2013, 06:47 PM
  #69
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Jets are my 2nd favorite team. Any Leaf fan that honestly thinks that Nonis would not take the trade offered in the OP and run away LAUGHING is wrong.

There is not ONE key part of our future going back not ONE no Kessel, no Lupul no Kadri no JVR no Gardiner no Rielly no 1st rounder no 2nd rounder.

The biggest loss for Franson and while I like Franson Phaneuf and big daddy Buff would be DEADLY together on the PP. People will say "but Franson outscored Buff." yes by 1 point and Buff played 5 fewer games.

Then you get to Percy and he is a solid prospect but with Gardiner already on the team Rielly coming up, Matt Finn coming up, Jesse Blacker coming up and a host of others Percy is expendable without killing the future especially since we have all our picks.

Matt Frattin not bad but you got Kessel, Lupul JVR already in the top 6 and Nonis is expected to make a big push for Clarkson if he hits free agency.

3rd rounder? you COULD find a gem but chances are you won't.

These are solid parts we'd give up but literally EVERY SINGLE ONE is expendable if it means adding a big peice like big daddy Buff.

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06-11-2013, 07:10 PM
  #70
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Jets are my 2nd favorite team. Any Leaf fan that honestly thinks that Nonis would not take the trade offered in the OP and run away LAUGHING is wrong.

There is not ONE key part of our future going back not ONE no Kessel, no Lupul no Kadri no JVR no Gardiner no Rielly no 1st rounder no 2nd rounder.

The biggest loss for Franson and while I like Franson Phaneuf and big daddy Buff would be DEADLY together on the PP. People will say "but Franson outscored Buff." yes by 1 point and Buff played 5 fewer games.

Then you get to Percy and he is a solid prospect but with Gardiner already on the team Rielly coming up, Matt Finn coming up, Jesse Blacker coming up and a host of others Percy is expendable without killing the future especially since we have all our picks.

Matt Frattin not bad but you got Kessel, Lupul JVR already in the top 6 and Nonis is expected to make a big push for Clarkson if he hits free agency.

3rd rounder? you COULD find a gem but chances are you won't.

These are solid parts we'd give up but literally EVERY SINGLE ONE is expendable if it means adding a big peice like big daddy Buff.
Absolutely, but the problem is that there isn't enough value coming Winnipeg's way.

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06-11-2013, 07:30 PM
  #71
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Absolutely, but the problem is that there isn't enough value coming Winnipeg's way.
Which was the point of my post.

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06-11-2013, 08:04 PM
  #72
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LOL
Gary Lawless of the Winnipeg Free Press: Itís sounding like Jets defenseman Dustin Byfuglien is virtually untradeable. Accredited Jets blogger Pete Tessier wrote that Byfuglien weighed 302 pounds by the end of the season.

http://www.mynhltraderumors.com/

yeah you'll get jvr/kadri/lupul no probbbbbbb.
Gary Lawless = Damian Cox
Accredited blogger = blogging on Eklund's site

You're picking at straws.

I think JVR/Kadri/Lupul is too much to ask for Byfuglien, however.

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06-11-2013, 10:38 PM
  #73
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The people who call Buff a defensive liability are just repeating crap they heard 1-2 years ago, and clearly haven't seen the evolution of Buffs game. It's pointless to try to point to the, the evidence of this season, because they've already decided to pigeonhole him for what he was. Is clear who they are in this thread..

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