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Old
10-12-2006, 12:30 PM
  #126
Shabutie
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Originally Posted by yukoner View Post
No, you're full of *****, which is why you won't dig up the nonexistant quote.
Unlike you I have better things to do than make up quotes...****tard.

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Old
10-12-2006, 12:31 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Unlike you I have better things to do than make up quotes...****tard.
Doesn't sound like it. I call bullsh.it

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10-12-2006, 12:47 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Gainey's just bad at negociating contracts. It wouldn't bug me so much if this wasn't a salary cap era.
Honestly name me one gm whos been consistant at negociating contracts. Every GM is horible at this and if you do name me one I guaranty you I will find some bad contract that gm gave up. Its about the core players he brings in. If you have a solid group of players that team is going to overcome that signing. Gainey might overpay but so far the teams gainey put on the ice are much better teams than the ones we had with previous gm.

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10-12-2006, 12:56 PM
  #129
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Honestly name me one gm whos been consistant at negociating contracts. Every GM is horible at this and if you do name me one I guaranty you I will find some bad contract that gm gave up. Its about the core players he brings in. If you have a solid group of players that team is going to overcome that signing. Gainey might overpay but so far the teams gainey put on the ice are much better teams than the ones we had with previous gm.
Personally I like what Lamoriello has done. You might find the Elias contract bad...but he's arguably a top 10 (top 20 at least) guy in the league, and he's now with the team for a few years.

I've always said that Gainey is a good GM but he's made some questionable calls, which is all I'm saying. It'll be interesting to see what he does this off-season with 4 of our D being UFAs. If he offers Rivet anything over than 2.5m, I'll once again be surprised...If he offers Markov over 5m, I'll be surprised...so on.

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10-12-2006, 01:02 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Personally I like what Lamoriello has done. You might find the Elias contract bad...but he's arguably a top 10 (top 20 at least) guy in the league, and he's now with the team for a few years.

I've always said that Gainey is a good GM but he's made some questionable calls, which is all I'm saying. It'll be interesting to see what he does this off-season with 4 of our D being UFAs. If he offers Rivet anything over than 2.5m, I'll once again be surprised...If he offers Markov over 5m, I'll be surprised...so on.
Mogilny? malakhov? please those were horible moves. Besisde the only reason Lamoriello moves allways looks good its because he has one of the best goalies in todays era in brodeur who wins constantly. When you have that on your roster it is allways easier for a team to make a bad signing look good. Dont get me rong he is a good gm, but that team is in cap trouble. they better have some good scout because they will need it for the next decade if he cant get that cap down. They better have talented prospects.


Last edited by oli500: 10-12-2006 at 01:09 PM.
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10-12-2006, 01:04 PM
  #131
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Lou Lam. after the great Malakhov, Mogilny signings?

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10-12-2006, 01:16 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Kovalev at 4.5 is nothing to brag about either...
Kovalev has been a consistent PPG or near-PPG man and is a proven playoff performer. 4.5 is pretty good for that considering what the market has been like last offseason, IMHO.

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Then we have Bonk who we're paying 2.4m (gainey didn't make the contract but he took it on)
I'm thinking this season Bonk will prove to be worth his money, or just about. He's been great so far. He had an off year last year, but let's face it: 2.4 million is not an awful contract for a good two-way forward with multiple 20-goal seasons on his resume.

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Theodore who we majorly overpayed...
Theo was paid market value at the time. He simply bombed spectacularly. You'll note Gainey has managed to dump him.

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Old
10-12-2006, 01:33 PM
  #133
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I'm thinking this season Bonk will prove to be worth his money, or just about. He's been great so far. He had an off year last year, but let's face it: 2.4 million is not an awful contract for a good two-way forward with multiple 20-goal seasons on his resume.
The past is the past...Bonk played with 2 of the best players the league has to offer. As for proving his worth...Let me put this lightly, Michael Peca, who is superior to Bonk in just about every department, is at 2.5m$

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10-12-2006, 01:37 PM
  #134
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Kovalev has been a consistent PPG or near-PPG man and is a proven playoff performer. 4.5 is pretty good for that considering what the market has been like last offseason, IMHO.
Imo Kovalev at 4.5 is alot better than Sammy at 3.5m. You talk about him being a PPG man...But he isn't. He's a 2-3pts per 4 game man. He usually collects 2-3 pts in one game, then disapears for 3 games, then comes back. Their's a pattern with him. Even in the post-season last year after Koivu went down, his production and play went down. He's probably our 2nd best playoff performer though (I'd still put Koivu ahead of him), so you have to like the signing...just that I think 4m woulda been enough.

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10-12-2006, 01:40 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Personally I like what Lamoriello has done. You might find the Elias contract bad...but he's arguably a top 10 (top 20 at least) guy in the league, and he's now with the team for a few years.

I've always said that Gainey is a good GM but he's made some questionable calls, which is all I'm saying. It'll be interesting to see what he does this off-season with 4 of our D being UFAs. If he offers Rivet anything over than 2.5m, I'll once again be surprised...If he offers Markov over 5m, I'll be surprised...so on.

Shabutie, I was saying for years that Theodore was a mediocre goaltender who had a three month hot streak in 2002. But even I fully understand why Gainey signed Theodore for that big time contract. The simple reason is he had no choice. Consider the scenario:

We had no other legitimate goaltender to take his spot if he didn't sign. Huet was considered to be a nothing at the time. If Gainey didn't sign Theodore, goaltending would have been even a greater liability than it already was. Essentially, Theodore was free to use this reality as leverage in the negotiations and he left Gainey no choice. Furthermore, at that time most of the media, fans and "expert" pundits were still pro-Theodore. Their glass was always half full. He hadn't had one good year. He'd had only one bad year. I'm sure Gainey knew that some idiot would take Theodore thinking that "all he needs is a change of environment". Even Tie Domi said it the other night after Theo's first period this season..."he looks more comfortable" Foot in mouth disease followed quickly because Theodore stunk up the join the last two periods. But the fact remains that the hockey "experts" in many places still haven't given up on Jose, even at $5.5 million. Gainey obviously knew this.


I think too many people do not understand the notion of value. Values are not static across the league. The value of a player fluctuates according to a team's wants and needs. Let's use Kovalev as an example. For a team that is low on offense, Kovalev has a higher value than he does to a team like Detroit which is already stacked up front. That means that Bob Gainey would be willing to pay Kovalev more than Detroit would be willing to pay for him. While it helps to look at comparables across the league, it is also important to take into account all of the variables, including Kovalev's leadership (fact), his strength and his big-game mentality. Montreal does not have a lot of big game players and most other players of Kovalev's talent do not have all of those qualities. IMO, to Montreal Kovalev is worth every cent of the $4 million we pay him. But he probably is worth a little less in Detroit.

Just for fun, let's do an indiscriminate search for comparables (some better, some worse), look what we find:
Yashin $7.6 million - I would not trade Garth Murray for this guy.
Naslund: $6 million - his leadership is also questionable.
In Vancouver the Sedin twins are gettgin $3.75M each!! Kovalev is much better than both of these guys in every respect.
Lecavalier: $7.1M - Kovalev had similar PPG and neither is a better two-way player or leader.
M. St-Louis: $6M - and Kovalev had more pts and higher PPG and is in many ways better.

VALUES ARE NOT STATIC. In a lot of ways these players are worth it to their teams. In some cases they are not but a small unrefined search will show you that for Montreal, paying $4 million for a player with Kovalev's set of tools is not unreasonable. It's certainly no basis for calling Gainey an "average contract negotiator". Ferguson Jr. in Toronto is an average-below average contract negotiator.



And I am sorry to say that anybody who says Kovalev is a floater doesn't watch him very closely. He may not have the mentality to be the Selke Trophy winner but then again we don't pay him for that. If he did he would cost us $5-6 million.


Last edited by Catch-22: 10-12-2006 at 01:49 PM.
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Old
10-12-2006, 01:56 PM
  #136
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In Vancouver the Sedin twins are gettgin $3.75M each!! Kovalev is much better than both of these guys in every respect.
Not sure about anyone else but I think this may prove to be a very good deal very soon. They seemed to finally break out last year and they sure are hot right now. Even before the season started people were whispering 85+pt seasons from the both of them, in which case, this could be a steal of a deal... And no, I'm not comparing them to Kovalev in any respect. I'm just looking at their contracts.

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Old
10-12-2006, 02:13 PM
  #137
Shabutie
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
Just for fun, let's do an indiscriminate search for comparables (some better, some worse), look what we find:
Yashin $7.6 million - I would not trade Garth Murray for this guy.
Naslund: $6 million - his leadership is also questionable.
In Vancouver the Sedin twins are gettgin $3.75M each!! Kovalev is much better than both of these guys in every respect.
Lecavalier: $7.1M - Kovalev had similar PPG and neither is a better two-way player or leader.
M. St-Louis: $6M - and Kovalev had more pts and higher PPG and is in many ways better.
Yashins contract was made pre-cap and is said to be the worst contract in NHL history (till Dipietro). Naslund at $6m is pretty good imo...He had a bad year last year but he's easily capable of 100 pts. The Sedins imo are the best value up there. They come in a pair, and likely always will...Their chemistry is second to none and they've improved so much over their first years that it's just scary. Both of these guys are potential 80-90 pters for this season alone...So if you can imagine they could only get better. As for the other 2, those contracts are just laughable, you're correct.

Lamoriello (though he did make a gaff with Malokhov and Mogs) signed Gionta at 4m$...I guess Kovalev at 4.5 isn't THAT bad, since we don't have any other stars (other than Koivu).

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Old
10-12-2006, 03:21 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
He usually collects 2-3 pts in one game, then disapears for 3 games, then comes back.
Last year Kovalev fell 4 points short of PPG -- not too bad for a year in which he had knee surgery -- and he was pretty consistent in getting points in every game, missing one here and there and making up for it with the occasional multi-point game, especially late in the season.

Usually those were PP assists, but it was no coincidence that Montreal had an excellent PP last year with Kovalev handling the puck off the boards for most of it. His puck handling, shot, and passing are major PP threats. Just watching the Philly game and seeing that the Flyers were conceding zone entry and oodles of space to Kovalev on the PP is a convincing illustration of the guy's value.

And yes, he has the occasional 2-3 point game, as per his triumphant return in that come-from-behind win over Ottawa. He can be a game-breaker, which is another reason why he makes millions.

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Old
10-12-2006, 04:27 PM
  #139
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Well if you interested in B's fan perspective ...here it is. Samsonov is a very good player, but it's a very difficult task to find the right player to play with him (usually center) . IMHO the best player for Sammy was Nylander.

Also Sergei at times can be frustrating. He hogs to the puck, tries to do too much ... and finally loses it. He needs somehow to simplify his game.
I agree, seeing him in Edm i found him to be very frustrating, always looking to pass or deke everybody twice. He seems to skate miles but accomplishes very little. Always made bad back passes to the other team. Kovy has to find the holes and be looking for Sammys passes. Samsonov never seemed like a good linemate. Perhaps he picked up some bad habits earlier in his career when i think he would of been better suited spending some time in the AHL. Yet during his stint with the oil he registered almost a point per game in the regular season.

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