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Why has Russia so low hockey population ?

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06-11-2013, 11:03 PM
  #76
Mr Kanadensisk
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Yes it is. Take it up with the IIHF. All this survey is to them is "guys, someone contact the national federations again to send in their registered players figures for this year so we can show to Fasel like we're working. - I sent the email! - Ok, thanks!"

You're giving an impression of having gotten an overdose of D-vitamin with the "D" standing for "denial". Just let go before you embarrass yourself any further.
You don't think the RHF would be interested to know how many kids are enrolled in hockey schools across Russia? What makes you think they don't already have that number? I don't think it would be too hard for them to get.

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06-11-2013, 11:12 PM
  #77
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You're giving an impression of having gotten an overdose of D-vitamin with the "D" standing for "denial". Just let go before you embarrass yourself any further.
I know you're upset because you thought you had me, but I think the questions I am asking are perfectly reasonable.

For example if the IIHF asked the RHF: How many kids under the age of 20 are registered in a hockey program in Russia this year?

I think the correct answer, and the one the IIHF would be looking for, is the number of kids enrolled in a hockey school, not simply those registered for competitive hockey with the RHF.

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06-11-2013, 11:55 PM
  #78
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In one of his recent interviews Tretyak claimed there are 86k players overall. And that's a pretty believable number.

I can't really imagine the outdoor rinks being that important because the schools that train their kids outdoors are pretty rare, at least in the cities (and of all honesty sports schools outisde of the urban areas are even less viable). Hockey sections in Russia naturally depend on the indoor "sports palaces".

And as for the "260 schools and 50 junior teams", all those schools are supposed to have their players registered since their teams participate in the DYSSh tournaments held by the FHR at least on the regional level. Underreported U10 players are the only major factor.

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06-12-2013, 07:42 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I know you're upset because you thought you had me, but I think the questions I am asking are perfectly reasonable.
You've been "had" a long time already, you just refuse to accept it.

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06-12-2013, 09:52 AM
  #80
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You've been "had" a long time already, you just refuse to accept it.
Nice try.

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06-12-2013, 11:12 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I know you're upset because you thought you had me, but I think the questions I am asking are perfectly reasonable.

For example if the IIHF asked the RHF: How many kids under the age of 20 are registered in a hockey program in Russia this year?

I think the correct answer, and the one the IIHF would be looking for, is the number of kids enrolled in a hockey school, not simply those registered for competitive hockey with the RHF
.

If the IIHF asked this, they would have asked the same about seniors. That Russia reported only 2,606 adult players (a lesser number than Australia) proves the IIHF did not ask as such.

Likewise, did IIHF ask Hockey Canada "we want an in depth report of juniors, but only report adults playing professionally."? The notion is beyond ridiculous and proves your argument throws common sense out the window.


Russia's numbers are extremely underreported....even if it's only the U10 kids not being counted.

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06-12-2013, 11:39 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
If the IIHF asked this, they would have asked the same about seniors. That Russia reported only 2,606 adult players (a lesser number than Australia) proves the IIHF did not ask as such.

Likewise, did IIHF ask Hockey Canada "we want an in depth report of juniors, but only report adults playing professionally."? The notion is beyond ridiculous and proves your argument throws common sense out the window.


Russia's numbers are extremely underreported....even if it's only the U10 kids not being counted.
The thing with seniors is that there is a much higher chance that most of them aren't registered with any organization. There are boat loads of seniors who just play pickup for fun, certainly with no coaches required and often even without refs. Because kids require coaching and supervision there is a much higher chance that they will be registered in some sort of organized program. Sorry, you can call me ridiculous all you want, but it really just makes you look desperate.

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06-12-2013, 12:07 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I know you're upset because you thought you had me, but I think the questions I am asking are perfectly reasonable.

For example if the IIHF asked the RHF: How many kids under the age of 20 are registered in a hockey program in Russia this year?

I think the correct answer, and the one the IIHF would be looking for, is the number of kids enrolled in a hockey school, not simply those registered for competitive hockey with the RHF.
As soon as you say "I think the correct answer is"..., all credibility on this matter vanishes. You have no reasonable basis to speculate - have you ever been in the offices of the RHF and worked with the RHF officials who rush together this meaningless data for the IIHF? It might be time for you to congratulate Zine and Jussi and sign off on this matter.

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06-12-2013, 12:08 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
[B]The thing with seniors is that there is a much higher chance that most of them aren't registered with any organization. There are boat loads of seniors who just play pickup for fun, certainly with no coaches required and often even without refs. Because kids require coaching and supervision there is a much higher chance that they will be registered in some sort of organized program. Sorry, you can call me ridiculous all you want, but it really just makes you look desperate.

The 2009 IIHF survey reported 25,960 registered Russian adults. The 2012 reported 2,600.

It's quite obvious the IIHF is only publishing the numbers federations give them.


Last edited by Zine: 06-12-2013 at 01:37 PM.
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06-12-2013, 03:08 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
The 2009 IIHF survey reported 25,960 registered Russian adults. The 2012 reported 2,600.

It's quite obvious the IIHF is only publishing the numbers federations give them.
I don't think I ever suggested otherwise.

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06-12-2013, 03:11 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
As soon as you say "I think the correct answer is"..., all credibility on this matter vanishes. You have no reasonable basis to speculate - have you ever been in the offices of the RHF and worked with the RHF officials who rush together this meaningless data for the IIHF? It might be time for you to congratulate Zine and Jussi and sign off on this matter.
Wait what, I have no basis to speculate on the numbers Zine has provided yet it is okay to speculate on the evidence I put forth? That is the silliest thing I have heard all day.

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06-12-2013, 04:11 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Wait what, I have no basis to speculate on the numbers Zine has provided yet it is okay to speculate on the evidence I put forth? That is the silliest thing I have heard all day.
He said reasonable basis to speculate. Without at least some proof, it's not a speculation - it's a guess, a stab in the dark.


Considering it's a IIHF registered player survey; what evidence do you have to speculate that:

1. the FHR reported it's non registered U10 population to the IIHF?
2. non FHR registered players (in schools, rec leagues, etc.) were included in the IIHF survey?


In fact, I don't care about your 'study'. My only issue is that, without first verifying the above, you're purposely underreporting Russia's numbers. The validity of your study is predicated on accurate and equal across the board reporting, is it not?


Last edited by Zine: 06-12-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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06-12-2013, 05:37 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Wait what, I have no basis to speculate on the numbers Zine has provided yet it is okay to speculate on the evidence I put forth? That is the silliest thing I have heard all day.
You're trying to prolong the argument to delay the inevitable outcome. Obviously, you have no way of making a reasonable case for speculation, much less knowing, how the RHF's statistics are ordered. Zine obviously has a high degree of knowledge and insight into Russian hockey, which contrasts with your repetitive invocations of Cold War-era stereotypes over the years. The reason you spend so much of your life on Russian-oriented threads is that you like to poke the Russian fan and see if you can get a little controversy going. Its always a knock on Russia and Russian hockey - that's your repetitive little game. You haven't had as much fun lately because Canada hasn't been winning much.

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06-12-2013, 07:17 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
He said reasonable basis to speculate. Without at least some proof, it's not a speculation - it's a guess, a stab in the dark.


Considering it's a IIHF registered player survey; what evidence do you have to speculate that:

1. the FHR reported it's non registered U10 population to the IIHF?
2. non FHR registered players (in schools, rec leagues, etc.) were included in the IIHF survey?


In fact, I don't care about your 'study'. My only issue is that, without first verifying the above, you're purposely underreporting Russia's numbers. The validity of your study is predicated on accurate and equal across the board reporting, is it not?
What evidence do you have that the U20 numbers Russia reported in the IIHF survey were only the number of competitive players registered with the RHF and not the total number of kids registered in hockey schools? When you look at the U20 rink utilization factor it seems more likely that Russia reported the overall number of registered players, not just the competitive, over 10 ones, and I think we both know these are the numbers the IIHF would be interested in. You can insult me all you want but you haven't shown a shred of evidence to suggest your numbers are the correct ones. I'm just looking for the most accurate numbers, you are the one with the well established m.o. of overstating all things Russian and understating all things Canadian.

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06-12-2013, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You're trying to prolong the argument to delay the inevitable outcome. Obviously, you have no way of making a reasonable case for speculation, much less knowing, how the RHF's statistics are ordered. Zine obviously has a high degree of knowledge and insight into Russian hockey, which contrasts with your repetitive invocations of Cold War-era stereotypes over the years. The reason you spend so much of your life on Russian-oriented threads is that you like to poke the Russian fan and see if you can get a little controversy going. Its always a knock on Russia and Russian hockey - that's your repetitive little game. You haven't had as much fun lately because Canada hasn't been winning much.
Zine is an American who is a fan of Russian hockey but I think even he would admit that he knows next to nothing about kids recreational hockey over there. You might think I knock Russia but all I am is honest and sometimes the truth hurts.

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06-12-2013, 07:59 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You're trying to prolong the argument to delay the inevitable outcome. Obviously, you have no way of making a reasonable case for speculation, much less knowing, how the RHF's statistics are ordered. Zine obviously has a high degree of knowledge and insight into Russian hockey, which contrasts with your repetitive invocations of Cold War-era stereotypes over the years. The reason you spend so much of your life on Russian-oriented threads is that you like to poke the Russian fan and see if you can get a little controversy going. Its always a knock on Russia and Russian hockey - that's your repetitive little game. You haven't had as much fun lately because Canada hasn't been winning much.
I'm going to make a wild guess and say that you are an American or Canadian now too. It is my experience that it is more the expats who have an unrealistic image of what their homeland is or was and I'd say you fit the bill. Am I wrong?

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06-12-2013, 08:56 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I'm going to make a wild guess and say that you are an American or Canadian now too. It is my experience that it is more the expats who have an unrealistic image of what their homeland is or was and I'd say you fit the bill. Am I wrong?
Yes.

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06-12-2013, 09:29 PM
  #93
Mr Kanadensisk
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Yes.
Well then I must appologize. I'm still curious though, where do you live now and what is your connection to Russia?

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06-12-2013, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
What evidence do you have that the U20 numbers Russia reported in the IIHF survey were only the number of competitive players registered with the RHF and not the total number of kids registered in hockey schools? When you look at the U20 rink utilization factor it seems more likely that Russia reported the overall number of registered players, not just the competitive, over 10 ones, and I think we both know these are the numbers the IIHF would be interested in. You can insult me all you want but you haven't shown a shred of evidence to suggest your numbers are the correct ones. I'm just looking for the most accurate numbers, you are the one with the well established m.o. of overstating all things Russian and understating all things Canadian.

Because:
1. "Registered player' is a universal term describing players registered to a federation.
2. Tretiak just said that Russia has 86K players. This corresponds to the 83k players reported 'registered' to the FHR on their web site (significantly more than reported on IIHF).
2. FHR does not consider u10 players 'registered'.

What's your evidence? An all encompassing U20/indoor rink ratio (even though the Czechs ratio is significantly off)? Common sense says that you're out of your league here.


Anyhow, I just emailed the FHR and IIHF (uh ooh for you)....hopefully soon we'll have our answer!.

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06-12-2013, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Zine is an American who is a fan of Russian hockey but I think even he would admit that he knows next to nothing about kids recreational hockey over there. You might think I knock Russia but all I am is honest and sometimes the truth hurts.
No disrespect....but ex-pats, individuals with a strong ties to Russia (myself), or individuals who've spent considerable time in Russia (myself), likely know FAR more about Russian system than a rabid pro-Canadian message board poster.


Last edited by Zine: 06-12-2013 at 10:39 PM.
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06-12-2013, 10:45 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Because:
1. "Registered player' is a universal term describing players registered to a federation.
2. Tretiak just said that Russia has 86K players. This corresponds to the 83k players reported 'registered' to the FHR on their web site (significantly more than reported on IIHF).
2. FHR does not consider u10 players 'registered'.

What's your evidence? An all encompassing U20/indoor rink ratio (even though the Czechs ratio is significantly off)? Common sense says that you're out of your league here.

Anyhow, I just emailed the FHR and IIHF (uh ooh for you)....hopefully soon we'll have our answer!.
So a recreational kid can't be "registered" with a hockey school?

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06-12-2013, 10:47 PM
  #97
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No disrespect....but ex-pats, individuals with a strong ties to Russia (myself), or individuals who've spent considerable time in Russia (myself), likely know FAR more about Russian system than a rabid pro-Canadian message board poster.
I'll take this non answer as an aknowledgement that you know next to nothing about youth recreational hockey in Russia.

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06-13-2013, 08:59 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Well then I must appologize. I'm still curious though, where do you live now and what is your connection to Russia?
Where do YOU live?

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06-13-2013, 09:02 AM
  #99
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So a recreational kid can't be "registered" with a hockey school?
Considering the level of teaching/coaching at those schools, I doubt a recreational kid would last long there or be accepted into one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I'll take this non answer as an aknowledgement that you know next to nothing about youth recreational hockey in Russia.
Unlike you?

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06-13-2013, 02:22 PM
  #100
Zine
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I'll take this non answer as an aknowledgement that you know next to nothing about youth recreational hockey in Russia.
Well, I'd bet I've more experiences, knowledge/avenues to obtain knowledge than you.

Where do you live? What experiences, knowledge, connections to the topic do you have that would help validate your POV?

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