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2013 NHL Entry Draft Talk 11.0

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Old
06-12-2013, 10:33 AM
  #26
Mathletic
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Originally Posted by ScopeHockey View Post
Just curious as to how many times you've watched Bernier play at the junior level to come up with an assessment does not have the ":quick release and precise shot" that Mantha has? I played 140 games and about 300 practices with Bernier and I've seen him score 80+ goals live and I can tell you his release and precision were two of his biggest strengths (the others being his hockey sense, soft hands and physical strength). What stopped Bernier from being dominant at the NHL level was lack of confidence and 'swagger'.
I can't pretend I played as much with him even though we were in the same age group growing up. That said, I remember him as more of a power forward who used his sized quite effectively. Not so much one who used his shot and found the open spots like Mantha does. Going back into the archives I found only 1 "scouting report" or more of a personnal report that actually pointed he could make his release quicker.

When I watch Stamkos play, I see someone who wastes no time taking his shot. When I watch Mantha, that's what I see. However, that's not how I remember Bernier, as good as he was growing up. MY 2 cents.

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06-12-2013, 10:42 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Mats86 View Post
I'd pass on both...but forced to choose I would pick Mantha. On chance our deep development team maybe able to work with him.
Who are your ideal picks at 25? I've seen you post a lot about the guys you don't want so I'm curious to know who you like My apologies if you've posted them before and I missed em.

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06-12-2013, 11:00 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
After everything you've read about Mantha and have heard about the depth of this draft...TT shouldn't even hesitate picking him eh? I'm taking it that is based on your thorough scouting of his statistical sheet? :-)

There will undoubtedly be hesitation to draft Mantha if he's there. The team is seeking a combo of skill and grit...for obvious reasons. Did you fail to see the Habs get pushed around against divisional rivals last year, particularly in the first round of the playoffs?

Did you notice that Boston..the grittiest team in the league, is in the Cup finals, and the toughest foe they faced was a gritty Leafs' team that is also in our division? I hope you are aware that starting next season the Habs will have to play divisional rivals, most who are full of grit, in the first rounds of the playoffs. Mantha shied away from the dirty areas versus 5-9 Q leaguers..I shudder to think what he'd do in a playoff series versus Lucic and Chara any time soon. Maybe someday he'll figure it out...but believe me..there will be great hesitation in picking him in the first round.

More players the Habs should have drafted in the past "without hesitation"

Pavel Brendl
Steve Bernier
Eric Fehr
Gilbert Brule
Duncan Milroy
Alex Picard
Zach Hamill
Kyle Beach

All were top scorers in their draft year....it's not always about stats.
Well those three players were a combo of skills and gritt, didn't prevent them from sucking.

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06-12-2013, 11:12 AM
  #29
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Nice Draft writeup taken from another board...

Dark Knight's Detailed 2013 Mock w/ Comparisons (2nd Edition)
2013 Entry Draft

1. Colorado - C Nathan MacKinnon
Best player available. One who coach Roy has had a look at in the QMJHL and one he can confidently build his franchise around. With him, Duchene, Landeskog and O'Reilly he has a young core and he can explore trade options with Stasny to improve the team's D.
Comparison - Vinny Lecavalier (In his Prime)

2. Florida - D Seth Jones
They're happy to select a guy they can build their D around. They have some good pieces at D already but none like Seth. This pick will push them out of mediocrity for the next decade or so.
Comparison - Chris Pronger

3. Tampa Bay - C/W Jonathan Drouin
Another great piece for Tampa to build their offense around especially with MSL getting up there in age and Vinny having his health issues sporadically. Ideally, they should go with a D and Nurse would have been perfect just as long as he wasn't a reach. They should go with the BPA route and pick Drouin.
Comparison - Pavel Datsyuk

4. Nashville Predators - C Sasha Barkov
The best position for Nashville to be in. They get the player they've been linked to from the get go. He's a two-way beast in the making and will almost certainly provide Nashville with a first line C they've lacked since their inception.
Comparison - Anze Kopitar

5. Carolina Hurricanes - RW Valerie Nichushkin
Carolina finds themselves either upgrading their wing position here with Nichushkin who has been in contention for a top 3 pick, or their D with Nurse, but I think they go with the high ceiling guy here with Nichushkin to round out their top 6 for the next decade with the Staals, Tlusty, Semin, Skinner and now Nichushkin.
Comparison - Evgeni Malkin

6. Calgary Flames - C Sean Monahan
This is the guy everyone has going here and it makes sense. It is a strong start to a legit rebuild for Calgary in the post-Iginla era. Skating needs work but everything else is well above-average and he projects as a strong top 2 line C for any team that drafts him.
Comparison - Paul Stasny

7. Edmonton Oilers - C Elias Lindholm
It's a great draft to have a top 7 pick in and Edmonton gets the last of the sure-fire impact guys. Lindholm is a very good playmaker and projects as a top 2 line C for Edmonton to form a great 1-2 punch with RNH. He's also very willing to get into the dirty areas and be physical.
Comparison - Anze Kopitar

8. Buffalo Sabres - D Darnell Nurse
With 2 picks in the first round and a farm system stocked with very good forwards in Larsson, Grigorenko and Girgensons, Buffalo takes the best D on board with Nurse who doesn't excel in any one area but projects as a very good two-way D-man who could be a physical force with his size. Is more known for his defensive play though for which he is the best in this draft, IMO.
Comparison - Mattias Ohlund

9. New Jersey Devils - C Bo Horvat
Yes! I know Devils fans that you have Adam Henrique, Travis Zajac and Andrei Loktionov but when you have a C available at this spot in the draft who projects to be captain material, and is made for Devil's hockey you can't look past it. I know you guys want Shinkaruk, but Horvat will have the better career IMO. He's a guy you win rounds with.
Comparison - Mike Richards

10. Dallas Stars - RW Hunter Shinkaruk
Jim Nill has just come from Detroit who are known to leave their prospects and leave no stones unturned in terms of their development in the minors. Any guy over here will be given all the time in the world to develop. Shinkaruk is a guy who is not physically ready but he does have potential to become a top 2 line scorer.
Comparison - Phil Kessel lite

11. Philadelphia Flyers - D Nikita Zadorov
Huge size at 6'7 and has gotten his feet wet in North America playing in London. Already has adjusted well to the N.A rink sizes and was the best D-man on the best team in the OHL. He's a great pick for the Flyers to build their D around along with Luke Schenn. They would need some puck movers eventually but reaching for Josh Morrissey here won't be the best thing. Zadorov is close to being NHL ready.
Comparison - Victor Hedman

12. Phoenix Coyotes - W/C Max Domi
Domi goes to Phoenix where he's needed. Phoenix has a bunch of good, young D-men on their roster already and a few including Gormley are on their way. They lack a high ceiling F and Domi is exactly that.
Comparison - Tyler Ennis

13. Winnipeg Jets - C Alexander Wennberg
Jets need help on the wing and would have loved for Shinkaruk to fall but instead they add another two-way C. He's already a good two-way player and is willing to get involved physically as well. Along with Mark Scheifle he'll form a good future core with Ladd, Kane and co.
Comparison - Frans Neilsen

14. Columbus Blue Jackets - D Rasmus Ristolainen
I just think with Jarmo's Finnish connections, this pick makes sense. But whoever Jarmo takes here, Columbus fans should be excited about him. He's a solid two-way D-man in the mold of Alex Edler but scouts have identified some issues with his level of compete night in and out. The talent is there and he projects as a safe top 4 D-man.
Comparison - Alex Edler

15. New York Islanders - C Curtis Lazar
Lazar falls to the Islanders to number 15 and fills a need of a smart two-way player who won't be too far from the NHL. He projects to be a 2nd line C in the mold of Mike Fisher who will provide more offense than Frans Neilsen and also shut down oppositions top players.
Comparison - Mike Fisher

16. Buffalo Sabres - LW Anthony Mantha
With Nurse in the farm now the Sabres improve their depth on the wing with a scoring forward in Mantha. He has the skill to score 30+ goals but needs to improve other areas of the game. With Buffalo rebuilding, he'll have ample time to round out his game.
Comparison - Max Pacioretty

17. Ottawa Senators - Frederik Gauthier
Big two-way C who can patrol Ottawa's 3rd line, shutting down oppositions top forwards and providing adequate offense. Would have taken Morrissey but Ottawa took a D in Cody Ceci earlier and Gauthier won't take long in the minors before reaching the NHL.
Comparison - Martin Hanzal

18. Detroit Red Wings - D Joshua Morrissey
The best defenseman available and also the BPA IMO. Detroit has a plethora of youngsters at the F position with Nyquist, Jannkrok, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco etc, except for Sproul and Oullet they don't have much. Morrissey has that two-way game which translate well into a top 4 D position with the Red Wings.
Comparison - Duncan Keith

19. Columbus Blue Jackets - LW Morgan Klimchuk
Klimchuk is a true wild-card in this draft. He's gifted with a scoring touch that will enable him to score 30 goals in the NHL and has great speed on top of that. He's a hard worker as well and it wouldn't surprise me if he goes higher than this but Jarmo's keen scouting eye won't let him past 19.
Comparison - Jeff Skinner

20. San Jose Sharks - LW Adam Erne
The Leafs are rumored to like Adam Erne but San Jose nabs him right before their pick. His size and scoring ability will enable him to become a top 6 PF in the NHL if he develops properly.
Comparison - Alex Chiasson

21. Toronto Maple Leafs - RW/LW Artturi Lehkonen
A small winger but one that has the drive and heart to battle tenaciously in the corners. He is gifted with great goal scoring instincts and amazing Ice-Q. Very gifted skater and a stick handler as well. The Leafs haven't drafted a youngster this talented since Nazem Kadri. That small Finnish kid that Morrison was talking about in the combine interview was Lehkonen. Won't be surprised if they like him enough to take him here.
Comparison - Patrick Elias

22. Calgary Flames - D Sam Morin
Morin won't make it past this pick. His size is too tempting for the Flames to pass up. Great start to the draft for Feaster with Monahan and Morin. Morin is lauded for his skating even with that size and if he develops well, you're looking at a top pairing guy who might not have the offense that Chara does, but he'll at least shut down the opposition as effectively as Chara does.
Comparison - Zdeno Chara minus the offense.

23. Washington - Valentin Zykov
Washington drafts another high ceiling Russian forward, but one who unlike Kuznetsov has already played in North America and would prefer to stay. Plays a North American game. He has a good scoring touch but I'm not sure if the offense that he's putting in the QMJHL will translate to the NHL but I can safely say he has the skill to put up at least 25 goals in the NHL. Has good hands and a hard shot which is his bread and butter. Is a good skater, but not a great one and is a smart player on both ends of the ice.
Comparison - Nikolai Kulemin

24. Vancouver Canucks - LW Nicolas Petan
Petan offers a lot more potential offense than someone like Kerby Rychel would even if he's more NHL ready. Vancouver drafts a C who may be on the smaller side but can make a transition to the wing and be a gifted playmaker for them going forward.
Comparison - Ray Whitney

25. Montreal Canadiens - LW Kerby Rychel
I was thinking Ian McCoshen here but Rychel falling has me thinking Montreal might just want to keep adding on toughness with skill, with the addition of Rychel. He will definitely become an NHL'er and he's got potential to be a 2nd line PF.
Comparison - Andrew Ladd

26. Anaheim Ducks - LW Laurent Dauphin
Love him. He's a coach's dream and a guy who will display more heart out there than your best players and will creep into your top 6 and become a staple there much like Brad Marchand did with Boston. Dauphin is not the agitator that Marchand is, but he's comparable in the skills department.
Comparison - Less pesky Brad Marchand

27. Columbus Blue Jackets - D Ryan Pulock
Smart pick by Blue Jackets. Pulock has suffered a lot after losing his brother and his game while did not deteriorate, but didn't improve much either this season which lead him to fall in a lot of draft rankings. He's still got best shot of anyone in this draft and Columbus has no one on their team right now with the shot like Pulock's. They take him with the hope that he'd become a PP fixture for them in the future.
Comparison - Bryan McCabe

28. Calgary Flames - LW/RW Andre Burakovsky
Burakovsky falls to the flames who finish their first round with Monahan, Morin and Burakovsky, an impressive start to a rebuild which shouldn't last too long with the impressive youngsters that are already being stocked in their farm in Wotherspoon, Gaudreau and Jankowski.
Comparison - Mikhail Grabovski

29. Dallas Stars - D Steve Santini
A rock to build their D around. He prides in shutting down opposition's top players and gives it his all every single night. He'll willingly block shots and will do all it takes to win. In a mediocre draft this guy easily goes before we hit 20, but this draft is so deep that he falls to the Stars, and Nill's keen scouting eye nabs him before the end of R.1.
Comparison - Dan Girardi

30. Chicago Blackhawks - LW Emile Poirier
High-high ceiling. Poirier is a speedy offensive forward who can make plays at top end speed and has the offensive touch to score on top of that. He's got the talent to go in the top 20 in a mediocre draft as well but this draft's depth slips him to the last selection for Round 1. Has the talent to make something out of nothing, but needs to improve his two-way game along with gaining strength. Plenty of teams after 20, including the Leafs have interest in this guy and he could be a riser come draft night. Remember this name.
Comparison - Jakub Voracek

Barely Missed the Cut:

Madison Bowey
Pavel Buchnevich
Shea Theodore
Mirco Mueller
Anthony Duclair
Jason Dickinson
Ryan Hartman
J.T Compher

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06-12-2013, 11:16 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
So given the choice between Mantha and Gauthier - provided they're both still on the board at #25 - which one would you pick... if either. WTK? Grant? WS?
I'd select neither.. but if I had to select one with a gun to my head, I take Gauthier. Gauthier is younger, just played his first season in the Q and by all accounts has a good defensive game. At LEAST he has a better chance of finding a spot in the NHL.
I'm not selecting a guy who is ONE DAY removed from last year's draft at 25 especially when in most, if not all, scouting reports you hear things like "Disinterested. Lacks work ethic. Lacks intensity. Shies away from physical contact. Big body who doesn't use it to protect the puck well. Does not implicate in the defensive end."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
May as well list the last players to score 50 in their draft years: Sidney Crosby, Nail Yakupov (on pace to do so), Jeff Skinner, John Tavares, Steven Stamkos, Patrick Kane, and Joffrey Lupul.

From a qualitative point of view, I think Mantha has what it takes to take his scoring to the next level. He has a quick release and precise shot. Very good skater. May be more physical at times but I still find this very overstated. So, basically the inverse of what Bernier was in the Q. Bernier was a slow skater, long windup and played the power game running over everybody.

In the games I watched this year there was once when I asked myself: is Mantha playing tonight (about halfway in the game)? and he actually ended the night scoring 2. The rest of the time (though I watched sparingly most the time browsing through games on Telus), I thought he was engaged for a goal-scorer.

People say, well he only scores goals, and brings nothing else to the table. I'm like, what? That's already a huge part of the game. I think he can become a 30-goal scorer in the league. Could be a Jeff Carter, Joffrey Lupul kinda guy. Seems to have good character from what I read and heard from Ross McLean.

I'll take this kid over someone like McCaron 10/10. Nothing against the physical guys with great body but they rarely develop into more than your average grinder (a la Colton Gillies). For every Milan Lucic there's a good 10-20 busts.

I also saw the Habs get beat by the beast of a man that is Jean-Gabriel Pageau.

If the Habs start drafting by needs and for what happened in this year's playoffs, they're buying themselves a ticket to terrible drafting. Those guys won't be on the team for at least 3-4 years. Plenty of time for the team to change. Also, the Habs have players who should be doing this already. Guys like Moen, ARrstrong, and so on, who simply didn't play their role.
Why don't we select Zach O'Brien then? Where's Thomas Beauregard? It's a scouts job to know when production is junior level production and potential pro production. A tall guy with no strength and no desire to use his body will not survive long in the pro game. What does he do in the NHL when he's getting checked constantly into the boards, hit when he gets the puck and has no time to get off his shot? Probably a whole lot of nothing.

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06-12-2013, 11:19 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Why don't we select Zach O'Brien then? Where's Thomas Beauregard? It's a scouts job to know when production is junior level production and potential pro production. A tall guy with no strength and no desire to use his body will not survive long in the pro game. What does he do in the NHL when he's getting checked constantly into the boards, hit when he gets the puck and has no time to get off his shot? Probably a whole lot of nothing.
I still think there's a big difference between Mantha, O'Brien and Beauregard. For some reason players like Joffrey Lupul, Jeff Carter and so on have all made their way to the NHL with similar issues. Canadiens aren't going to draft the perfect prospect at 25. If available, I doubt he will, Mantha would be great value at that point IMO.

It's not like big, physical guys like Gillies, Terry Ryan, Kyle Beach and a host of others are sure bets either.

In Mantha's case I see his main asset transferable to the NHL. A guy who sees the open spot and wastes no time taking good shots.

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06-12-2013, 11:23 AM
  #32
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Okay, seeing this BPA versus Need debate popping up again and I think its a bit of a red herring.

Need sounds simple to understand, draft wingers if you need wingers, big guys if you need big guys. Only twist is whether the need is for now, which is a problem given the time it takes to develop players or anticipating a coming need.

BPA is complicated because how do you determine BPA ? Obviously there is subjectivity involved even if part of it is based on objective testing. It has to be very subjective because the evaluator chooses the criteria, and this should lead to issues if followed blindly. When Serge Savard was GM he took a lot of big guys in round 1 and Houle pretty much stuck to this also. That's fine, and they considered other qualities like character, grit, scoring, physical play etc, everything except one thing, skating ability. Sounds stupid that given that the game is played on ice that skating wouldn't be considered really important, but it wasn't. While the players may have also failed for other reasons, so many were identified as having poor foot speed, after years of our being told their foot speed would improve. This is why I freak whenever I read about us taking a guy who is a poor skater, like I hear about Zykov . Anyway, think the Habs drafted based on BPA back then.

Andre Savard came along and he was a believer in speed and skill, hiring TT who shared that view. Fortunately for us drafting the BPA when your primary criteria are speed and skating results in a lot better draft picks than when you don't emphasize skating. TT has done a great job. He didn't care that PK was barely an averaged size D man, he was fast and skilled among other things, Houle would have taken a pass probably. Only issue with our approach is that with some exceptions ( Patches, Tinordi ), big, fast and skilled guys usually don't drop to where we are drafting, so we end up with speed, skill and smaller sized guys. Again, would rather that than constant busts. Just wish that the size and physical play sides of the criteria were given more weight.

This year is exciting though because even with our emphasis on speed and skill there are so many big players who at least have good speed and a decent skill set that we should boost our size and physical play pool of players at both forward ( Horvat, De La Rose, etc. ) and backend especially ( Morin, Ristolainen, Heatherington, Santini, Diaby, etc ) because some of these guys will be there when we pick.


Last edited by yianik: 06-12-2013 at 11:27 AM. Reason: miising word
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06-12-2013, 11:25 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
I still think there's a big difference between Mantha, O'Brien and Beauregard. For some reason players like Joffrey Lupul, Jeff Carter and so on have all made their way to the NHL with similar issues. Canadiens aren't going to draft the perfect prospect at 25. If available, I doubt he will, Mantha would be great value at that point IMO.
Tell me, with all the things that Timmins and Bergevin preaches, (and keep in mind that Timmins likes younger players because they have more growing to do) that you think they're going to be interested in this:

"Had a really tough game. He said in his TSR interview in November he needed to work on his work ethic game in and game out, and he had an off game without a doubt. Did not land a hit or a shot to my recollection, and outside of a few nice passes, showed no flashes of his shot or hands. Will be tough to overcome come draft day after a showing like that on a big stage in front of hundreds of scouts."

"Some things Mantha needs to work on are his compete level without the puck, which is an issue on the backcheck and his physicality. When a player with a big strong frame like Mantha doesn't use his size on the boards consistently it raises a red flag.

"needs to play with a consistent work ethic as he occasionally floats while waiting for the puck to come to him...could improve his physical game"

The drawbacks to his game are his defence and lack of physical play and intensity. Many believe he falls in the “boom or bust” category.

Mantha is a big kid with a ton of physical maturation left and a very projectable frame,” says Ross MacLean, head scout for International Scouting Services. “He has a smooth skill set for a big man and is a very good shooter. He never seems to dominate on the ice but always finds himself in great scoring areas and he doesn’t miss very often. He does not play physically, something that often shocks you when you go to watch him play.”

“He’s got good size, but he’s a bit gangly and he needs to work on his lower-body strength a little bit. He’s not a great skater and he certainly needs to work on that. The other aspect of his game is he’s got to be more involved. He’s prone to not just taking shifts, but periods and nights off."

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06-12-2013, 11:39 AM
  #34
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So given the choice between Mantha and Gauthier - provided they're both still on the board at #25 - which one would you pick... if either. WTK? Grant? WS?
Incredible tough choice to make and I hope we won't have to do it. Honestly, both make my list....but I hope something slides so we'd pick another one. 'Cause when you look at those 2, you have a Mantha who despite his stats, has a few issues, and not the least important ones. But he is obvioiusly not your biggest physical initiator though, that's for sure....but so isn't Gauthier. And Gauthier, well the offensive side of his game is still a BIG question mark for me. Stats aren,t always precise but trying to figure a player's ceiling in a certain area of his game isn't either. I'd probably go with Gauthier....but I hope to god we won't be put in that position. Though at that point, we won't know....we WILL know in 3 or 4 years from now. But Gauthier is a big centerman. Knows the game on both ends. And did good when he faced tougher opposition. But then you look at the playoffs, and nobody can say that they prefered Gauthier's game over Mantha's....even if you remove entirely the statssheet. But then you add it and see that Mantha filled it. Not only that but Mantha has improved greatly offensively from his 1st season, and even defensively. And while this +/- stats doesn't says it all ESPECIALLY in Juniors, well for whoever didn't see him play he went from -11 to +21. Again, I know this doesn't say it all. One thing is sure though, I've seen him being frequently used on the PK. Didn't do too bad on it either. Having said all that, for the sake of not witnessing a World War 3 if we don't pick him and he ends up a star player in this league, I really hope somebody takes Mantha out of the equation for us before we pick.

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06-12-2013, 11:39 AM
  #35
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I just really hope Poirier is available for us at 34/36. Would like to see it happen

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06-12-2013, 11:47 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Why don't we select Zach O'Brien then? Where's Thomas Beauregard? It's a scouts job to know when production is junior level production and potential pro production. A tall guy with no strength and no desire to use his body will not survive long in the pro game. What does he do in the NHL when he's getting checked constantly into the boards, hit when he gets the puck and has no time to get off his shot? Probably a whole lot of nothing.
Thing is I could also get to a whole lot of great gritty and physical players that didn,t make it either. For his small size, Brule was really physical in Juniors. And that's probably what killed him later as he tried to be as physical and just didn't have the strength to do it. And some more examples, much bigger ones who also didn't succeed, but not because they weren't gritty or big enough, but because they weren't talented or didn't have the hockey sense enough....Was Turner Stevenson a can't miss prospect? How was Bilodeau? Terry Ryan...wasn't he physical? But then we overestimated all these other aspects like skating and so on...

Again, it's all about knowing the prospects qualities and determine if we can work with those weaknesses. If you determine that the guy has no heart, no desire and just that is afraid of playing physical, OF COURSE you don't pick him even if he scores 200 goals per year. But it has to be tough to determine, but we'll let the professionnals deal with that.

I mean, we all understand that being a big guy isn't enough. We all see how Latendresse was playing. And that once he hurt DiMaio, this guy was done physically. He was going to say that he was sorry everytime he hit someone. Another guy that makes me wonder is MY guy....Max. I mean, we did hear him talk about his "new" style there, his new freakin perimeter style he didn't seem to be playing. He also was on the wrong end of a hit and giving tough hits himself....is he going to turn Latendresse now? You hope not 'cause as talented as he is, it won't work if he's all worried about the hit game. And somehow....we'll see....but let's hope that it won't also be the case for Eller, another tall guy.....So Mantha, IS not a slam dunk pick. But he needs to be consider. I could tell you that as strong as this draft is, at 25, we will have some question marks about the pick.

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06-12-2013, 11:50 AM
  #37
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Thing is I could also get to a whole lot of great gritty and physical players that didn,t make it either. For his small size, Brule was really physical in Juniors. And that's probably what killed him later as he tried to be as physical and just didn't have the strength to do it. And some more examples, much bigger ones who also didn't succeed, but not because they weren't gritty or big enough, but because they weren't talented or didn't have the hockey sense enough....Was Turner Stevenson a can't miss prospect? How was Bilodeau? Terry Ryan...wasn't he physical? But then we overestimated all these other aspects like skating and so on...

Again, it's all about knowing the prospects qualities and determine if we can work with those weaknesses. If you determine that the guy has no heart, no desire and just that is afraid of playing physical, OF COURSE you don't pick him even if he scores 200 goals per year. But it has to be tough to determine, but we'll let the professionnals deal with that.

I mean, we all understand that being a big guy isn't enough. We all see how Latendresse was playing. And that once he hurt DiMaio, this guy was done physically. He was going to say that he was sorry everytime he hit someone. Another guy that makes me wonder is MY guy....Max. I mean, we did hear him talk about his "new" style there, his new freakin perimeter style he didn't seem to be playing. He also was on the wrong end of a hit and giving tough hits himself....is he going to turn Latendresse now? You hope not 'cause as talented as he is, it won't work if he's all worried about the hit game. And somehow....we'll see....but let's hope that it won't also be the case for Eller, another tall guy.....So Mantha, IS not a slam dunk pick. But he needs to be consider. I could tell you that as strong as this draft is, at 25, we will have some question marks about the pick.
I'm aware there are going to be question marks about a pick.. I'd rather the question marks be about other things rather than work ethic or desire. When you admit, on your own, that your work ethic is bad, you -know- it's bad. Work ethic is really hard to instill, you either have it or you don't and this team isn't very good at getting players to stay motivated like Bowman was able to do to his players in Detroit.

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06-12-2013, 11:51 AM
  #38
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Poirier or Dauphin?

I'll go with Poirier. Sticking with my "coup de coeur" of the year. Dauphin is no slouch though. Would be great to also have him on board.

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06-12-2013, 11:52 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Tell me, with all the things that Timmins and Bergevin preaches, (and keep in mind that Timmins likes younger players because they have more growing to do) that you think they're going to be interested in this:

"Had a really tough game. He said in his TSR interview in November he needed to work on his work ethic game in and game out, and he had an off game without a doubt. Did not land a hit or a shot to my recollection, and outside of a few nice passes, showed no flashes of his shot or hands. Will be tough to overcome come draft day after a showing like that on a big stage in front of hundreds of scouts."

"Some things Mantha needs to work on are his compete level without the puck, which is an issue on the backcheck and his physicality. When a player with a big strong frame like Mantha doesn't use his size on the boards consistently it raises a red flag.

"needs to play with a consistent work ethic as he occasionally floats while waiting for the puck to come to him...could improve his physical game"

The drawbacks to his game are his defence and lack of physical play and intensity. Many believe he falls in the “boom or bust” category.

Mantha is a big kid with a ton of physical maturation left and a very projectable frame,” says Ross MacLean, head scout for International Scouting Services. “He has a smooth skill set for a big man and is a very good shooter. He never seems to dominate on the ice but always finds himself in great scoring areas and he doesn’t miss very often. He does not play physically, something that often shocks you when you go to watch him play.”

“He’s got good size, but he’s a bit gangly and he needs to work on his lower-body strength a little bit. He’s not a great skater and he certainly needs to work on that. The other aspect of his game is he’s got to be more involved. He’s prone to not just taking shifts, but periods and nights off."
I agree he doesn't seem to be the type of guy the Canadiens are after this off-season. That said, I'm simply stating my opinion.

I expect these kinds of players to be invisible at times. Guys like Brett Hull, Carter and so on are just like that. When they don't score, they're rarely of any use. That said, what they bring to the table is goal-scoring abilities. Some players are better at carrying the puck, setting up the play and whatnot. Before knocking Mantha for what he's not, I'd rather look at what he is. What he is, is a good goal-scorer. I also think his skills can translate to the NHL. Here's a video of Button after he watched Mantha score 4 goals on Rimouski. He'll obviously have a different take than that of Timmins who watched Mantha on an off-night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNuNTqBPBRA

What I like to hear: senses where opportunities will come from, where the timing will be and where the space will open up.

I agree he has to work on his play without the puck, but seriously I get tired of hearing this. There's just so many good players of whom you can say that at the junior level.

What you say of Mantha is what people said of Saad not too long ago. Just went back to look at some reports, here's what TSR had to say:

"Saad is a big winger with good speed, a hard shot, and a fairly good head for the game, but he lacks the drive you need to be a top line player at the next level. Saad shies away from contact despite being a big player and never really uses his body to his advantage. He doesn’t drive the front of the net enough and just isn’t willing to pay the price. All is not lost with Saad, as he does have goal scoring talent, but he needs to show a lot more if he wants to have that opportunity in the NHL."

For me, he'd be terrific value at 25. I can understand why some people don't want him.

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06-12-2013, 11:54 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I'm aware there are going to be question marks about a pick.. I'd rather the question marks be about other things rather than work ethic or desire. When you admit, on your own, that your work ethic is bad, you -know- it's bad. Work ethic is really hard to instill, you either have it or you don't and this team isn't very good at getting players to stay motivated like Bowman was able to do to his players in Detroit.
Admission is the first step to rehabilitation....

I prefer a guy who'll say "I'll show them" than one who still doesn't think it's still that much a problem. I know, it doesn't he will eventually get it. Might not be in him which then it becomes a real problem. But if we say that we could surround guys like Gallagher better by having bigger guys around....could we surround a guy like Mantha who could become a Ryder with more intense players around him?

Would Mantha be able to be a passenger on a Bruins or Hawks team? Time we become a team that nobody can take a break....

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06-12-2013, 11:55 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Poirier or Dauphin?

I'll go with Poirier. Sticking with my "coup de coeur" of the year. Dauphin is no slouch though. Would be great to also have him on board.
Maybe they could both be Habs property at the end of the draft

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06-12-2013, 11:56 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
I agree he doesn't seem to be the type of guy the Canadiens are after this off-season. That said, I'm simply stating my opinion.

I expect these kinds of players to be invisible at times. Guys like Brett Hull, Carter and so on are just like that. When they don't score, they're rarely of any use. That said, what they bring to the table is goal-scoring abilities. Some players are better at carrying the puck, setting up the play and whatnot. Before knocking Mantha for what he's not, I'd rather look at what he is. What he is, is a good goal-scorer. I also think his skills can translate to the NHL. Here's a video of Button after he watched Mantha score 4 goals on Rimouski. He'll obviously have a different take than that of Timmins who watched Mantha on an off-night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNuNTqBPBRA

What I like to hear: senses where opportunities will come from, where the timing will be and where the space will open up.

I agree he has to work on his play without the puck, but seriously I get tired of hearing this. There's just so many good players of whom you can say that at the junior level.

What you say of Mantha is what people said of Saad not too long ago. Just went back to look at some reports, here's what TSR had to say:

"Saad is a big winger with good speed, a hard shot, and a fairly good head for the game, but he lacks the drive you need to be a top line player at the next level. Saad shies away from contact despite being a big player and never really uses his body to his advantage. He doesn’t drive the front of the net enough and just isn’t willing to pay the price. All is not lost with Saad, as he does have goal scoring talent, but he needs to show a lot more if he wants to have that opportunity in the NHL."

For me, he'd be terrific value at 25. I can understand why some people don't want him.
Saad's been pretty invisible in the play-offs. He's a rookie though, I'll cut him some slack. You have to read my posts under the impression that I am only looking to draft players that will give you play-off success. Mantha might become a Ryder at the NHL level, which is fine for a team like Columbus, who are happy to make the play-offs.. but I want to ****ing win in the play-offs and by all reports, Mantha doesn't have that in him. I'd prefer Hartman, he might score half the goals Mantha does but he'll do a lot more for you in crunch time.

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06-12-2013, 11:56 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Poirier or Dauphin?

I'll go with Poirier. Sticking with my "coup de coeur" of the year. Dauphin is no slouch though. Would be great to also have him on board.
Poirier for me. But I think you knew that.

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06-12-2013, 11:57 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Saad's been pretty invisible in the play-offs. He's a rookie though, I'll cut him some slack. You have to read my posts under the impression that I am only looking to draft players that will give you play-off success. Mantha might become a Ryder at the NHL level, which is fine for a team like Columbus, who are happy to make the play-offs.. but I want to ****ing win in the play-offs and by all reports, Mantha doesn't have that in him. I'd prefer Hartman, he might score half the goals Mantha does but he'll do a lot more for you in crunch time.
Totally agree that we need some freakin sandpaper on the team. I can't deny that as I keep asking for it.

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06-12-2013, 11:58 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Saad's been pretty invisible in the play-offs. He's a rookie though, I'll cut him some slack. You have to read my posts under the impression that I am only looking to draft players that will give you play-off success. Mantha might become a Ryder at the NHL level, which is fine for a team like Columbus, who are happy to make the play-offs.. but I want to ****ing win in the play-offs and by all reports, Mantha doesn't have that in him. I'd prefer Hartman, he might score half the goals Mantha does but he'll do a lot more for you in crunch time.
Well, the Bruins still won a cup with Ryder and he actually played well for them that year.

That said, I'd be fine with Hartman as well.

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06-12-2013, 12:00 PM
  #46
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At the end of the day, I think we can all agree that with our first 3 picks we should be able to get a very good mix of everything - skill, size, speed, smarts, sandpaper, etc (maybe even some qualities that don't start with the letter 'S'), regardless of which names are actually called.

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06-12-2013, 12:06 PM
  #47
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Mantha's bread and butter is his one-timer from the right circle area on his off-wing. He shoots from the left side. It's deadly accurate.

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06-12-2013, 12:17 PM
  #48
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Dark Knight's Detailed 2013 Mock w/ Comparisons (2nd Edition)
2013 Entry Draft

25. Montreal Canadiens - LW Kerby Rychel
I was thinking Ian McCoshen here but Rychel falling has me thinking Montreal might just want to keep adding on toughness with skill, with the addition of Rychel. He will definitely become an NHL'er and he's got potential to be a 2nd line PF.
Comparison - Andrew Ladd
Thanks for posting your list. I agree that Horvat won't get to the teens, that Mantha, Gauthier and Morin will all be gone by the time the Habs speak -- and while I like Rychel, I wouldn't discount Poirier and Dauphin as possibilities. I also agree with your mock that the latter two players are not likely to be around when the Habs' picks are up in the 2nd round.


Last edited by Runner77: 06-12-2013 at 12:44 PM. Reason: typo
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06-12-2013, 12:26 PM
  #49
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So given the choice between Mantha and Gauthier - provided they're both still on the board at #25 - which one would you pick... if either. WTK? Grant? WS?
Gauthier without a doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChoseLa View Post
Well those three players were a combo of skills and gritt, didn't prevent them from sucking.
I wouldn't say Bernier has a lot of grit.

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06-12-2013, 12:27 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Poirier or Dauphin?

I'll go with Poirier. Sticking with my "coup de coeur" of the year. Dauphin is no slouch though. Would be great to also have him on board.
I used to be more in favor of Dauphin, but I think I'm more pro-Poirier now after doing some more research. Love his straight ahead speed and he's bigger. It's close between the 2 players though. I'm content with 1 of them at 34/36.

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