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Old
06-12-2013, 08:26 AM
  #26
Seanahue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
You need to read the post in context.

He's (and / or others are) saying that the difference between Simmonds and Kane is (much, much) less than Couturier.

(I also think he's saying that Simmonds is currently the better player, which is debatable. He's not saying that Simmonds holds more trade value).
Ah gotcha. I kinda came in 1/2 way through

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Old
06-12-2013, 08:30 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
Has this been proposed? I feel that it maybe has between Jets fans in the past.

To Philadelphia:
Dustin Byfuglien
Alex Burmistrov

To Winnipeg:
Sean Couturier
Wayne Simmonds
In terms of value:
Couturier > Burmistrov
Simmonds > Byfuglien

So yeah, thats an easy no.

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Old
06-12-2013, 08:39 AM
  #28
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Still, Buff to the Flyers makes sense. Philly has been coveting a big, difference-making D-man every since Pronger left and Weber fell through. And Philly is one of the few teams that might be able to get Buff to get in top shape and play hard throughout the year.

Seems to me Voracek would be about right.

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Old
06-12-2013, 08:57 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan47 View Post
Kane would be the best player in the deal, IN YOUR OPINION! That comment is based on what exactly? His 159 points in 261 games? Simmonds has 174 in 367..Frankly there not much different at all unless your delusional. Offering a fat slob isnt gonna cut it...
You're so ignorant. Read some damn posts and do some research before you open your mouth.

Kane has a career NHL .61 PPG, Simmonds has a career NHL .41 PPG. Kane is 3 years younger than Simmonds and brings about a much more physical game. No, I don't think Simmonds is a bad player, but Kane is a bit better as a player and has much higher value in a trade.

And calling Byfuglien a fat slob is horrendously ignorant. I guess we'll take solace that Byfuglien has outscored most of your team the last couple of years and put up an amazing amount of points and goals that only 2 other dmen can claim to have.

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06-12-2013, 08:59 AM
  #30
Jack de la Hoya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing Is New View Post
Still, Buff to the Flyers makes sense. Philly has been coveting a big, difference-making D-man every since Pronger left and Weber fell through. And Philly is one of the few teams that might be able to get Buff to get in top shape and play hard throughout the year.

Seems to me Voracek would be about right.
Voracek isn't really available, and I don't think that the Flyers need a "big" D as much as they need a reliable, consistent puck-mover. Byfuglien brings some of those skills, but he's more dynamic than steady.

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Old
06-12-2013, 09:08 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Nothing Is New View Post
And Philly is one of the few teams that might be able to get Buff to get in top shape and play hard throughout the year.
Cheesesteaks tell us otherwise.

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06-12-2013, 09:09 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan47 View Post
Frankly there not much different at all unless your delusional. Offering a fat slob isnt gonna cut it...
Someone...help this guy.

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Old
06-12-2013, 10:07 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneHands View Post
In terms of value:
Couturier > Burmistrov
Simmonds > Byfuglien

So yeah, thats an easy no.
Couturier > Burmistrov - yep
Simmonds > Byfuglien - nope

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06-12-2013, 10:22 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus tacitus View Post
Couturier > Burmistrov - yep
Simmonds > Byfuglien - nope
I actually don't agree. If anything Couturier is on par with Burmi, if not a little bit less on value. Burmi is much better defensively....and this is where we cue the Philly fans saying that he shut down Malkin(who was still a pt per game...) I don't have the stats on me, but our resident stats guy ran the numbers that showed that Burmi actually shut down Malkin leaps and bounds better the Couturier ever did.

Their point totals are very similar, considering Burmi's serious lack of Linemates and both guys not being in the top six. This season was a bit of a step back for Burmi, but he spent time on the fourth line as well as being benched for four games.

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Old
06-12-2013, 10:25 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
I actually don't agree. If anything Couturier is on par with Burmi, if not a little bit less on value. Burmi is much better defensively....and this is where we cue the Philly fans saying that he shut down Malkin(who was still a pt per game...) I don't have the stats on me, but our resident stats guy ran the numbers that showed that Burmi actually shut down Malkin leaps and bounds better the Couturier ever did.

Their point totals are very similar, considering Burmi's serious lack of Linemates and both guys not being in the top six. This season was a bit of a step back for Burmi, but he spent time on the fourth line as well as being benched for four games.
the defense is a wash imo - both outstanding for their age - I just think Coots' game has better offensive upside

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06-12-2013, 10:44 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
I actually don't agree. If anything Couturier is on par with Burmi, if not a little bit less on value. Burmi is much better defensively....and this is where we cue the Philly fans saying that he shut down Malkin(who was still a pt per game...) I don't have the stats on me, but our resident stats guy ran the numbers that showed that Burmi actually shut down Malkin leaps and bounds better the Couturier ever did.

Their point totals are very similar, considering Burmi's serious lack of Linemates and both guys not being in the top six. This season was a bit of a step back for Burmi, but he spent time on the fourth line as well as being benched for four games.
Malkin was a PPG but I believe he had either zore or one point when Couts was on the ice.

The only knock on Couturier's game has been his offensive potential which at a younger age, he's shown more potential than Burmistrov. Higher scoring in Juniors, higher scoring in the AHL and higher scoring in the NHL all at a younger age. I dont think it's any question that Couturier has more value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus tacitus View Post
Couturier > Burmistrov - yep
Simmonds > Byfuglien - nope
Simmonds is signed for 6 years for under $4m a year. That takes him from age 25 to 30, basically his entire prime at a great cap hit.

Byfuglien is signed for 5 years at $1.5m more from age 28 to 33 which is through his prime too though guys that don't stay in great shape, usually have an earlier prime.

You think Byfuglien has more value than Simmonds?


Last edited by StoneHands: 06-12-2013 at 10:57 AM.
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Old
06-12-2013, 10:48 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
I actually don't agree. If anything Couturier is on par with Burmi, if not a little bit less on value. Burmi is much better defensively....and this is where we cue the Philly fans saying that he shut down Malkin(who was still a pt per game...) I don't have the stats on me, but our resident stats guy ran the numbers that showed that Burmi actually shut down Malkin leaps and bounds better the Couturier ever did.

Their point totals are very similar, considering Burmi's serious lack of Linemates and both guys not being in the top six. This season was a bit of a step back for Burmi, but he spent time on the fourth line as well as being benched for four games.
On the first point, I'm not sure what this is based on, but even Couturier's detractors acknowledge his defensive skill. Burmistrov is above average defensively, sure, and very much so for his age, but Couturier is a class apart in that respect.

Malkin's production came on the PP and when Couturier wasn't on the ice. Either you or the board's resident stats guy needs to dig a bit deeper into the numbers...

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Old
06-12-2013, 10:54 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilina View Post
And calling Byfuglien a fat slob is horrendously ignorant. I guess we'll take solace that Byfuglien has outscored most of your team the last couple of years and put up an amazing amount of points and goals that only 2 other dmen can claim to have.
But it's true. The fact he weighed after the season ended at 302 pounds is a major, major concern. It's clear the Buff doesn't take physical fitness seriously and when you've got $5 million tied up in a player like that, that's a big investment and even bigger risk. Buff might put up numbers, but the weight is what kills.

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Old
06-12-2013, 10:55 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
On the first point, I'm not sure what this is based on, but even Couturier's detractors acknowledge his defensive skill. Burmistrov is above average defensively, sure, and very much so for his age, but Couturier is a class apart in that respect.

Malkin's production came on the PP and when Couturier wasn't on the ice. Either you or the board's resident stats guy needs to dig a bit deeper into the numbers...
My guess is that how thorough the research garret did is not an issue. How to interpret the numbers and what they mean is one thing but the stats were there.

Either way, both are probably their team's best defensive forward which is exceptional given their age. Burmistrov has gotten a raw deal here IMO.

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06-12-2013, 10:56 AM
  #40
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My guess is that how thorough the research garret did is not an issue. How to interpret the numbers and what they mean is one thing but the stats were there.

Either way, both are probably their team's best defensive forward which is exceptional given their age. Burmistrov has gotten a raw deal here IMO.
I'm not seeing it. I can't see how Burmistrov is more valuable than Couturier, and I really can't see how that superior value is baed on his defensive play.

Where are the stats? Can you link them here?

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Old
06-12-2013, 11:13 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
But it's true. The fact he weighed after the season ended at 302 pounds is a major, major concern. It's clear the Buff doesn't take physical fitness seriously and when you've got $5 million tied up in a player like that, that's a big investment and even bigger risk. Buff might put up numbers, but the weight is what kills.
An internet blogger at hockeybuzz apparently = truth now.


Cmon

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Old
06-12-2013, 11:44 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
But it's true. The fact he weighed after the season ended at 302 pounds is a major, major concern. It's clear the Buff doesn't take physical fitness seriously and when you've got $5 million tied up in a player like that, that's a big investment and even bigger risk. Buff might put up numbers, but the weight is what kills.
It's a FACT now? Could you provide a link please?


No?.... I didn't think so.

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06-12-2013, 11:48 AM
  #43
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I think Simmonds is a non-starter. He won't be traded. Couturier could be dealt, but we would want someone younger than Byfuglien. The deal would likely look more like Couturier + for Bogosian. Not sure Winnipeg really needs Couturier, though.

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06-12-2013, 12:03 PM
  #44
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It's a FACT now? Could you provide a link please?


No?.... I didn't think so.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...210963161.html

Before an article like that gets posted, they have to fact check or it's called libel and slander.

EDIT: It's also been reported by accredited Jets blogger Pete Tessier, someone who is on the Jets payroll.

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06-12-2013, 12:16 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...210963161.html

Before an article like that gets posted, they have to fact check or it's called libel and slander.

EDIT: It's also been reported by accredited Jets blogger Pete Tessier, someone who is on the Jets payroll.
He's not on the payroll!

Doesn't Eklund blog for Hockey buzz as well? Come on.

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Old
06-12-2013, 12:33 PM
  #46
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2 points:

1) Buff to Philly proposals will never go anywhere. Their fans are 2nd only to TML posters with "OMG Buff's fat lulz" posts.

2) Kane & Simmonds. I agree that Simmonds is a beast. A beaut. Awesome. Etc. But comparing their production needs to take into consideration their line mates. Kane has maybe had the most consistently putrid combination of linemates any top young player has ever had this many seasons into his career. His numbers are all basically non-power play points and way too many come where he's the one man band.

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Old
06-12-2013, 12:39 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Vander Teemuchuk View Post
2 points:

1) Buff to Philly proposals will never go anywhere. Their fans are 2nd only to TML posters with "OMG Buff's fat lulz" posts.

2) Kane & Simmonds. I agree that Simmonds is a beast. A beaut. Awesome. Etc. But comparing their production needs to take into consideration their line mates. Kane has maybe had the most consistently putrid combination of linemates any top young player has ever had this many seasons into his career. His numbers are all basically non-power play points and way too many come where he's the one man band.
1) You're generalizing. Plenty of Flyers fans see Byfuglien as a very productive and dynamic player. The (legitimate) concerns about his conditioning aside, there are real reasons to doubt whether he's precisely what the Flyers need, and, to be frank, Flyers fans are probably in a better position to know what the team needs than non-Flyers fans.

2) I completely agree. Kane is better than Simmonds, projects to be a far better player, and holds considerably more value. (That said, I don't think the gap in value is as big as S. Couturier, but that's another issue).

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06-12-2013, 12:40 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...210963161.html

Before an article like that gets posted, they have to fact check or it's called libel and slander.

EDIT: It's also been reported by accredited Jets blogger Pete Tessier, someone who is on the Jets payroll.
Did you read the article? It contains such quotes as....

"If there's any truth to this number..."

"Did Buff weigh three bills during an NHL season? Don't know."

I'm not saying Buff is skinny but I'd bet good money that he didn't weigh 300+ coming off 4 months of 3 games per week + practice. It's a rumour.... Nothing more.

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Old
06-12-2013, 12:52 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...210963161.html

Before an article like that gets posted, they have to fact check or it's called libel and slander.

EDIT: It's also been reported by accredited Jets blogger Pete Tessier, someone who is on the Jets payroll.
As someone has already mentioned, he's not on the payroll.

And, if Tessier is to be believed as a 100% accurate source, then we should also believe that Buff and Burmi for Schenn and Schenn is an accurate rumor, because he's also posted that as well.

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Old
06-12-2013, 12:57 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...210963161.html

Before an article like that gets posted, they have to fact check or it's called libel and slander.

EDIT: It's also been reported by accredited Jets blogger Pete Tessier, someone who is on the Jets payroll.
Fellow Flyers fan here, but you're dead wrong on what constitutes libel. Take it from me...I just spent a week covering torts (including libel) while studying for the bar exam. If the person at issue is a public figure (like Byfuglien), then it's very difficult for anyone to succeed in a defamation claim against a publisher. The burden is on the plaintiff to prove falsity, plus they have to show that the publisher made the statement with "actual malice" to satisfy their prima facie case.

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