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Kris Letang

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Old
06-12-2013, 01:21 PM
  #151
MrBigglesworth
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Crash View Post
Why, because we are expecting a return similar to that of the Staal trade? And I was assuming something around $7.5 million per season, which the Pens couldn't afford.
A similar return I wouldn't disagree with...but what you've been proposing has not been a similar return. Staal returned 1 great asset and a couple of pretty good ones.

The 5th and 7th picks this year are both arguably more like 3rd in any other year. That's already a better asset than anything Staal returned. Then on top of that upgrade, you're asking for an established defenseman with top pairing upside? Faulk, Fowler, Schultz, etc., are not akin to Brandon Sutter.
Something closer to this is what you could call an improvement on the Staal package, while still in that ball park...
Canes: 5th overall + Nash + decent prospect
Oilers: 7th overall + Paajarvi + decent prospect
Add in a 4th middle/low-end asset if you like.

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06-12-2013, 01:39 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth View Post
A similar return I wouldn't disagree with...but what you've been proposing has not been a similar return. Staal returned 1 great asset and a couple of pretty good ones.

The 5th and 7th picks this year are both arguably more like 3rd in any other year. That's already a better asset than anything Staal returned. Then on top of that upgrade, you're asking for an established defenseman with top pairing upside? Faulk, Fowler, Schultz, etc., are not akin to Brandon Sutter.
Something closer to this is what you could call an improvement on the Staal package, while still in that ball park...
Canes: 5th overall + Nash + decent prospect
Oilers: 7th overall + Paajarvi + decent prospect
Add in a 4th middle/low-end asset if you like.
What are you talking about, Sutter was the best asset in that deal. And saying the 5th this year is like a 3rd in another year is ridiculous, it has the value of a 5th or a 7th pick.

This is just another case of prospects and picks being overrated on this website. Sutter was definitely the biggest part of the deal last year, followed by the 1st, followed by Dumoulin.

Staal got a young replacement, a high pick and a good prospect. Letang would be looking at the same, probably more.

Your packages were awful. The Pens would laugh at those proposals. The Oilers one would probably be okay if the prospect was like Klefbom. You don't get Norris finalists for a high pick and 2 okay prospects.

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06-12-2013, 01:43 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by couture23 View Post
What would Pens fans be looking from Buffalo for Letang?

Buffalo doesn't need Letang, I am just curious at the asking price.
I'm not too sure. Personally, I'd love to see a Myers-Letang combo, but on the Pens. Probably something around your 8th pick. Do you have any young OFD?

Personally, I think Grigorenko/Hackett, the 8th pick and something small could be pretty close.

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06-12-2013, 02:06 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Crash View Post
What are you talking about, Sutter was the best asset in that deal. And saying the 5th this year is like a 3rd in another year is ridiculous, it has the value of a 5th or a 7th pick.

This is just another case of prospects and picks being overrated on this website. Sutter was definitely the biggest part of the deal last year, followed by the 1st, followed by Dumoulin.

Staal got a young replacement, a high pick and a good prospect. Letang would be looking at the same, probably more.

Your packages were awful. The Pens would laugh at those proposals. The Oilers one would probably be okay if the prospect was like Klefbom. You don't get Norris finalists for a high pick and 2 okay prospects.
lol. All right, at least that clears up how you think the packages are "similar". Barkov, Monahan, Lindholm, Nichushkin are all typical prospects, and Brandon Sutter = Justin Faulk. Gotchya.
This is not at all a case of a homer thinking his player is worth too much. I'm sure you'll get everything you feel Letang is worth, and more. Best of luck with that.

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06-12-2013, 02:34 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth View Post
lol. All right, at least that clears up how you think the packages are "similar". Barkov, Monahan, Lindholm, Nichushkin are all typical prospects, and Brandon Sutter = Justin Faulk. Gotchya.
This is not at all a case of a homer thinking his player is worth too much. I'm sure you'll get everything you feel Letang is worth, and more. Best of luck with that.
The difference between Staal and Letang is equal to the difference between the 5th this year and the 8th last year plus the difference between Sutter and Faulk (I think I'm just undervaluing Faulk here). The difference between Nichushkin (I'm assuming that is who we would pick) and who was available at 8 last year (should have been Foresberg) isn't that great.

I think the issue here is that I'm severely underrating Faulk. I was under the impression that he was a #4 OFD. Is that off? I think that was my issue with the Ducks trade as well, I thought Fowler was a #4 D. It's not an issue of me thinking Letang has a crazy trade value, I think it's just an issue of me underrating the value of the returning D.

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06-12-2013, 03:31 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Crash View Post
The difference between Staal and Letang is equal to the difference between the 5th this year and the 8th last year plus the difference between Sutter and Faulk (I think I'm just undervaluing Faulk here). The difference between Nichushkin (I'm assuming that is who we would pick) and who was available at 8 last year (should have been Foresberg) isn't that great.

I think the issue here is that I'm severely underrating Faulk. I was under the impression that he was a #4 OFD. Is that off? I think that was my issue with the Ducks trade as well, I thought Fowler was a #4 D. It's not an issue of me thinking Letang has a crazy trade value, I think it's just an issue of me underrating the value of the returning D.
Fair enough, maybe that's all it is.
Faulk was #1 in ice time for the Canes. A naysayer could chalk that up to bad D- but IMO he, Schultz and Fowler are already top 4 at worst (at 21/22 years old) and have very legit top 2 upside. I would consider them major pieces.
As an Oiler fan I'd, personally, value Schultz as on par with Eberle. And while I'd love to see Letang here, there's no way I could get on board with a deal around Schultz/Eberle + 7th overall + a good prospect.

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06-12-2013, 03:31 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Crash View Post
The difference between Staal and Letang is equal to the difference between the 5th this year and the 8th last year plus the difference between Sutter and Faulk (I think I'm just undervaluing Faulk here). The difference between Nichushkin (I'm assuming that is who we would pick) and who was available at 8 last year (should have been Foresberg) isn't that great.

I think the issue here is that I'm severely underrating Faulk. I was under the impression that he was a #4 OFD. Is that off? I think that was my issue with the Ducks trade as well, I thought Fowler was a #4 D. It's not an issue of me thinking Letang has a crazy trade value, I think it's just an issue of me underrating the value of the returning D.
Faulk is really good. Faulk would Pitt's number 2 paired with Martin.

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06-12-2013, 03:39 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Riseonfire View Post
Faulk is really good. Faulk would Pitt's number 2 paired with Martin.
Yeah that's what my issue was. I was under the impression that he was a #4 D. I think it was the same issue with Fowler.

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06-12-2013, 03:43 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth View Post
Fair enough, maybe that's all it is.
Faulk was #1 in ice time for the Canes. A naysayer could chalk that up to bad D- but IMO he, Schultz and Fowler are already top 4 at worst (at 21/22 years old) and have very legit top 2 upside. I would consider them major pieces.
As an Oiler fan I'd, personally, value Schultz as on par with Eberle. And while I'd love to see Letang here, there's no way I could get on board with a deal around Schultz/Eberle + 7th overall + a good prospect.
Okay, that was the issue then. I thought they were maxed out at a #3 or #4 D. What I meant by that would be a deal like:

Niskanen (#4 D, will probably stay around there), top-10 pick and a decent prospect for Letang

That's what I was trying to get at with my proposals. Then again, a D really isn't even required. I like the deal someone else brought up of Klefbom, the 7th pick and another for Letang.

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06-12-2013, 04:07 PM
  #160
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If the penguins were to make a trade with the islanders, I would want grabner, Nielsen , and niño niederreiter (needs a change of scenery) and a 2nd for a signed letang and rights to thee Tyler kennedy

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06-12-2013, 05:27 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth View Post
lol. All right, at least that clears up how you think the packages are "similar". Barkov, Monahan, Lindholm, Nichushkin are all typical prospects, and Brandon Sutter = Justin Faulk. Gotchya.
This is not at all a case of a homer thinking his player is worth too much. I'm sure you'll get everything you feel Letang is worth, and more. Best of luck with that.
I don't think he is saying those picks/prospects are the same. What he is saying is that if you think you are going to give similar assets to land a legit #1 D-man, as you would to land a #2C, you are dreaming.

Letang's value>>>>>Staal's value.

This is not a rip in any means on Staal. He is a great player with a lot of value. However, #1 Dmen with Letang's skill set are so much harder to find than second line centers.

That being said, I think Faulk is a big increase value wise over Sutter.

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06-12-2013, 05:30 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
I don't think he is saying those picks/prospects are the same. What he is saying is that if you think you are going to give similar assets to land a legit #1 D-man, as you would to land a #2C, you are dreaming.

Letang's value>>>>>Staal's value.

This is not a rip in any means on Staal. He is a great player with a lot of value. However, #1 Dmen with Letang's skill set are so much harder to find than second line centers.
Just to elaborate on this, Letang, for all his faults, has a specific role, PMD, that is also the position of greatest imbalance between supply and demand. So #1 PMD is currently the most sought after and scarcest position in hockey apart from #1 C (which you can, more or less, ONLY get through the draft).

Staal...big 2 way C...there are guys like him out there. He might be the best or second best of the guys like him, but you're not losing many (or any) more games if you have Hanzal, Berglund, Zajac, heck, even Bozak. Isn't to say those guys are as good, just that they're suitable replacements if you want Staal and can't get him. And not having a big 2 way C isn't as big of an issue as not having a #1 D.

Edit #2: The scarcity of PMD is also why guys like Gonchar and Streit can demand $5 mil even though they're shadows of themselves.


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06-12-2013, 05:39 PM
  #163
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Being honest whilst I don't expect Letang to be traded I'd want something along the lines of the Staal deal but better;

2013 1st Round Pick + Top Prospect + Decent Bottom 6/4 player + Top 6/4 player.

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06-12-2013, 06:07 PM
  #164
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It comes down to this, how much higher do you view Letang's value than Staal's value? I personally think:

Klefbom (8.0 C, top prospect), Paajarvi (young top/bottom 6 option), Pitlick (decent prospect) and 7th overall pick

Is a fair trade, but others probably would disagree. I also would like:

Connolly (8.0 C, top prospect), Barberio (7.0 B, good prospect) and the 3rd overall pick

But others probably wouldn't like it. Those are probably around where a deal would fall, if Letang would be traded.

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06-12-2013, 06:11 PM
  #165
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If we were to trade him I'd almost certainly go for a top 5 pick. Would make little sense going for a 15-30 pick or abouts really if there's interest at the top. In that Edmonton deal. If you changed Pitclick for Maricin(sp?), Musil or Gernat then I'd be interested.

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06-12-2013, 06:13 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Crash View Post
It comes down to this, how much higher do you view Letang's value than Staal's value? I personally think:

Klefbom (8.0 C, top prospect), Paajarvi (young top/bottom 6 option), Pitlick (decent prospect) and 7th overall pick

Is a fair trade, but others probably would disagree. I also would like:

Connolly (8.0 C, top prospect), Barberio (7.0 B, good prospect) and the 3rd overall pick

But others probably wouldn't like it. Those are probably around where a deal would fall, if Letang would be traded.
You might be lucky to get this for him. I would certainly take that bold this year in the salary cap era

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06-12-2013, 06:23 PM
  #167
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You might be lucky to get this for him. I would certainly take that bold this year in the salary cap era
Why? He's a #1 PMD who also happens to be a Norris finalist. Why should he get a worse return than Staal? I still haven't gotten an answer to that yet.

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06-12-2013, 06:33 PM
  #168
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Why? He's a #1 PMD who also happens to be a Norris finalist. Why should he get a worse return than Staal? I still haven't gotten an answer to that yet.
A) UFA, salary cap era. You get the control entry level contracts / RFA after offers

B) Brandon Sutter, prospect Brian Dumoulin, and the No. 8 selection Derrick Pouliot is not as good as you are making it out to be. The 3rd overall from this draft is not interchangable with the 8th overall from that years draft.

C) If letang was on a bottom feeder, the 3rd overall pick this year + another good prospect would be great value.

It is obvious Letang fits well with the Pens current direction / plan (unless he prices himself off the team). That is the reason these threads never end well and have both sides crying foul.

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06-12-2013, 06:40 PM
  #169
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I wouldn't want to spend $7m either but if that's the case then we can obviously trade but I don't see him getting signed for that. There's no actually confirmation that is what he asked for and Shero is someone who is often able to get the best deal out of a contract. I seem him signing for around $5.5m at most.

Considering UFAs Garrison got $6M, Carle got $6M, Gonchar just got $5M, and Mark Streit is asking for $5.5M.

Seems pretty darn logical Letang will get $7M. You can't just his contract against those signed before the new CBA.

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06-12-2013, 06:41 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by danisonfire View Post
A) UFA, salary cap era. You get the control entry level contracts / RFA after offers

B) Brandon Sutter, prospect Brian Dumoulin, and the No. 8 selection Derrick Pouliot is not as good as you are making it out to be. The 3rd overall from this draft is not interchangable with the 8th overall from that years draft.

C) If letang was on a bottom feeder, the 3rd overall pick this year + another good prospect would be great value.

It is obvious Letang fits well with the Pens current direction / plan (unless he prices himself off the team). That is the reason these threads never end well and have both sides crying foul.
No, he's priced himself out. That's why there is this thread. However, Letang>>>>>Staal, so the return for Letang>>>>>return for Staal. Letang is a #1 PMD, Staal was a 2C. Letang has a much higher value than Staal, so he should get a return as such, which brings me back to my original deals.

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06-12-2013, 06:45 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Being honest whilst I don't expect Letang to be traded I'd want something along the lines of the Staal deal but better;

2013 1st Round Pick + Top Prospect + Decent Bottom 6/4 player + Top 6/4 player.

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06-12-2013, 06:45 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Crash View Post
No, he's priced himself out. That's why there is this thread. However, Letang>>>>>Staal, so the return for Letang>>>>>return for Staal. Letang is a #1 PMD, Staal was a 2C. Letang has a much higher value than Staal, so he should get a return as such, which brings me back to my original deals.
Subjective. At the time of the trade the hope was Staal was a #1 Center stuck behind two of the worlds best. Regardless, a #8 overall is valued differently than a #3 in a draft with great high end talent. It is all matter of opinion how much better Letang was than staal, and what the difference between that #8 and #3 pick are in different drafts

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06-12-2013, 06:53 PM
  #173
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Subjective. At the time of the trade the hope was Staal was a #1 Center stuck behind two of the worlds best. Regardless, a #8 overall is valued differently than a #3 in a draft with great high end talent. It is all matter of opinion how much better Letang was than staal, and what the difference between that #8 and #3 pick are in different drafts
Okay that's a decent response. I proposed that because a Lightning fan proposed Connolly and the 3rd for Letang, so I thought we could get a little more. I doubt he is traded though, he will sign for like $7.5 million per, then will cripple the Pens depth until his contract is done.

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06-12-2013, 07:09 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
If the penguins were to make a trade with the islanders, I would want grabner, Nielsen , and niño niederreiter (needs a change of scenery) and a 2nd for a signed letang and rights to thee Tyler kennedy
That proposal... WOOF. You simply won't get two roster players and one of our big 4. Also, Kennedy does nothing for us other than not fill the hole you ripped in the Isles roster.

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Originally Posted by danisonfire View Post
Subjective. At the time of the trade the hope was Staal was a #1 Center stuck behind two of the worlds best. Regardless, a #8 overall is valued differently than a #3 in a draft with great high end talent. It is all matter of opinion how much better Letang was than staal, and what the difference between that #8 and #3 pick are in different drafts
Sweet username. Like what you're doing there.

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06-12-2013, 07:38 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riseonfire View Post
Miller for Letang. Both have 1 year left on their deals.

Pens then ship out one of their current goalies for a Dman or picks.
Counter: Vitale for Vanek. Both have 1 year left on their deals.

You even save almost $6 million in cap space!

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