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2013 NHL Entry Draft Talk 11.0

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Old
06-12-2013, 03:27 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by dcal64 View Post
People keep saying we shouldn't draft for needs, yet if you look at the Habs, most of our core players are Habs draft picks.

All of our forward prospects are on the smallish side (Collberg, Kristo, Hudon), not sure where we will magically find a big gritty Top-6 forward if we don't draft him.

If you think we can sign a UFA big gritty Top-6 forward, just look at our cap space, and see what Clarkson will fetch this year (every team wants big gritty forwards and will overpay for them).

What other options is there, trading for one? Who do we have that we can spare that would fetch us one?

Why do people keep ignoring what Bergevin said at his year-end conference that this team will be built through the draft, and that he wants the team to get bigger.

There's no way we draft Petan in the 1st round, we only draft Petan if he falls to #55 where he becomes a value pick.
We have 5 picks in the top 71. Taking Petan with 1 pick won't derail a getting bigger strategy, it can still be done, especially with the number of big players in this draft. Bergevin also said you need balance several times in his end of year conference.

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06-12-2013, 03:33 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by dcal64 View Post
People keep saying we shouldn't draft for needs, yet if you look at the Habs, most of our core players are Habs draft picks.

All of our forward prospects are on the smallish side (Collberg, Kristo, Hudon), not sure where we will magically find a big gritty Top-6 forward if we don't draft him.

If you think we can sign a UFA big gritty Top-6 forward, just look at our cap space, and see what Clarkson will fetch this year (every team wants big gritty forwards and will overpay for them).

What other options is there, trading for one? Who do we have that we can spare that would fetch us one?

Why do people keep ignoring what Bergevin said at his year-end conference that this team will be built through the draft, and that he wants the team to get bigger.

There's no way we draft Petan in the 1st round, we only draft Petan if he falls to #55 where he becomes a value pick.
Not often you can come out of a draft with 80-90 point guy. You never pass up drafting another Giroux to draft another Bickell. Size can be obtained other ways... Skill is far and away thing to be looking for in draft. If size is what you crave...deal a Desnaishais and Gionta and use the cash to sign another Prust, Bryan Bickell couple of guys like that. Presto you have the size you wanted with Hayden and McCarron. They are even ready now, don't have to wait 3-4 years for them to mature.


Last edited by Mats86: 06-12-2013 at 03:34 PM. Reason: spelling errors
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06-12-2013, 03:36 PM
  #78
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While I agree that you have to pick BPA, it's also right that you can rarely trade for big skilled wingers. It'll generally take two smaller skilled guys to trade for a big skilled winger who may get drafted around the same time.

It's also been said that we already have Pacioretty, Gallagher, Galchenyuk and Eller as four out of our future top 6. We need two guys to pan out. We already have:

Collberg
Vail
Hudon
Kristo

for those roles and they're doing well. Maybe one becomes a top 6 forward? So we can risk taking guys with size this year. If we take:

Mantha - a 50 goal scorer who's 6'5" no matter how you look at it. Who were the last 50 goal scorers with size who failed?
Hartman - looks like a Hartnell clone to me
McCarron - has great potential

and only one turns out, that's all we need. The rest of the guys provide third line depth. Whether those three guys will be around is irrelevant; they are examples. You have to be willing to take calculated risks. Given the current state of our forward prospects, this year we can take the risk of drafting top six potentials with size and skill. You hedge your bets and it's about time that people submitted huge offers to us for our big players rather than the other way around. Nobody will offer anything for our Desharnais's.

We don't need homeruns on our four picks in the first two rounds this year. We've had successful drafts the last few years. What we do need is players with both size and skill. And this is the only place you find them for a reasonable value.


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06-12-2013, 03:43 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Sam I Am View Post
How about Peter Cehlarik with our 3rd or late 2nd?

“The Slovak winger is 6-2 and 192 pounds. He spent this past season moving up through Lulea’s two junior leagues and eventually onto Lulea in the Swedish Elite League (SEL), the highest level of hockey in the country. There he posted three goals and three assists in eight games. He played well for Slovakia’s U18 team in Sochi this past April, scoring twice and adding five assists in six games. Keep an eye to see which NHL team drafts him and how high he goes. A team that has done its homework could end up with a nice project on its hands.”
I'm a fan.

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06-12-2013, 03:49 PM
  #80
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I really think we should make a run at Horvat if he makes it into the late teens.

If not, I'd be down for Zykov if he's available. Mantha scares me.

I would be so stoked if we got McCarron in the 2nd.

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06-12-2013, 03:52 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
While I agree that you have to pick BPA, it's also right that you can rarely trade for big skilled wingers. It'll generally take two smaller skilled guys to trade for a big skilled winger who may get drafted around the same time. (...)

(...)Given the current state of our forward prospects, this year we can take the risk of drafting top six potentials with size and skill. You hedge your bets and it's about time that people submitted huge offers to us for our big players rather than the other way around. Nobody will offer anything for our Desharnais's.

We don't need homeruns on our four picks in the first two rounds this year. We've had successful drafts the last few years. What we do need is players with both size and skill. And this is the only place you find them for a reasonable value.
I agree with the above. Would only add that that a third key component, on top of skill and size, is physicality or grit. We've seen a lot of tall players who won't hit a fly nor go into heavy traffic. Big-sized players who play small, are no better than a smaller player -- only difference is they have a reach advantage.

Secondly, when size is involved, it's not just height -- but a player whose body will take on additional weight. A 6 ft 2 in. player is not likely to be effective in terms of grit, if his ideal playing weight is, say, 170 lbs.

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06-12-2013, 03:53 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
I agree with the above. Would only add that that a third key component, on top of skill and size, is physicality or grit. We've seen a lot of tall players who won't hit a fly nor go into heavy traffic. Big-sized players who play small, are no better than a smaller player -- only difference is they have a reach advantage.

Secondly, when size is involved, it's not just height -- but a player whose body will take on additional weight. A 6 ft 2 in. player is not likely to be effective in terms of grit, if his ideal playing weight is, say, 170 lbs.
Agreed. I should say size, skill and physicality.

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06-12-2013, 03:56 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
If the Mike Richards comparisons are correct, I don't see what the issue is with Bo going as high as 12-15. From what I've read in scouting reports (the limit of my knowledge), he brings a whole host of intangibles to go along with his solid two-way game: grit, tenacity, leadership, competitiveness, etc...

He seems like a player built for playoff hockey. If we manage the improbable and draft him at #25, I'd be ecstatic! Again, keep in mind my opinion is entirely based on what the scouts say.
Kyle Woodlief last week, gave a ringing endorsement in a 690 interview:

Quote:
Bo Horvat: Big strong stud. Whatever territory he wants to occupy on the ice, that's what he's going to occupy, cause nobody is going to stop him from getting there. A big bull with good hands, who finishes all his checks. Plays well both ways, very responsible in his own end and great personal character. Captain material. RLR has him going 10th, but can't seem him dropping later than 12th or 13th max.

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06-12-2013, 03:56 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by ChesterNimitz View Post
I prefer to write about and discuss probabilities and not possibilities. It leads to a much more fruitful and productive discussion. What is a mock other than an effort to predict, whether assuredly or otherwise, what will happen at the draft?
And as I said, you would have likely dismissed all the scenarios in my original post as improbable, yet they happened. No one's talking about drafting MacKinnon or Jones here, it's entirely reasonable to think any of those guys (Morin, Horvat, Lazar) could still be on the board for our pick.

I don't see what's fun or fruitful in discussing the same group of players that you have determined will be there when the Habs pick.

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06-12-2013, 03:56 PM
  #85
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I can see the comparisons but I don't think Horvat will ever be as physical or the hitter that Richards is.

I certainly think he'll be gone by say 17 at the latest, but as always in the draft, it's not impossible that he slips lower. And I'd take him at 25 in a second, of course.
He's a far better skater than Richards though.

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06-12-2013, 04:11 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
He's a far better skater than Richards though.
Don't think Horvat has near the same hockey sense or offensive tools. Obviously it isn't all about stats but if you can't even make it over a ppg in the OHL in your second year.... it's not even like he has the tools or impeccable technique that would lead you to believe he's got a lot of potential in that area.

People who are expecting a Mike Richards will be severely disappointed. Perhaps he'll be a Brandon Dubinsky-type but I can't see anything more. Perhaps a not as physical Cal Clutterbuck?

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06-12-2013, 04:32 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
While I agree that you have to pick BPA, it's also right that you can rarely trade for big skilled wingers. It'll generally take two smaller skilled guys to trade for a big skilled winger who may get drafted around the same time.

It's also been said that we already have Pacioretty, Gallagher, Galchenyuk and Eller as four out of our future top 6. We need two guys to pan out. We already have:

Collberg
Vail
Hudon
Kristo

for those roles and they're doing well. Maybe one becomes a top 6 forward? So we can risk taking guys with size this year. If we take:

Mantha - a 50 goal scorer who's 6'5" no matter how you look at it. Who were the last 50 goal scorers with size who failed?
Hartman - looks like a Hartnell clone to me
McCarron - has great potential

and only one turns out, that's all we need. The rest of the guys provide third line depth. Whether those three guys will be around is irrelevant; they are examples. You have to be willing to take calculated risks. Given the current state of our forward prospects, this year we can take the risk of drafting top six potentials with size and skill. You hedge your bets and it's about time that people submitted huge offers to us for our big players rather than the other way around. Nobody will offer anything for our Desharnais's.

We don't need homeruns on our four picks in the first two rounds this year. We've had successful drafts the last few years. What we do need is players with both size and skill. And this is the only place you find them for a reasonable value.

I agree with this. I would target:

Mantha, Hartman or Rychel at #25. They have top 6 upside but can be bottom 6 players if they dont pan out.

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06-12-2013, 04:34 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
Don't think Horvat has near the same hockey sense or offensive tools. Obviously it isn't all about stats but if you can't even make it over a ppg in the OHL in your second year.... it's not even like he has the tools or impeccable technique that would lead you to believe he's got a lot of potential in that area.

People who are expecting a Mike Richards will be severely disappointed. Perhaps he'll be a Brandon Dubinsky-type but I can't see anything more. Perhaps a not as physical Cal Clutterbuck?
working in the OHL I see a ton of Bo. He will be an absolute beast in the NHL, physically so much more mature than most other 1st rounders. He was Londons all around best player hunter was quoted as saying he was their MVP. Plays in all situations.

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06-12-2013, 04:39 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by odishabs View Post
working in the OHL I see a ton of Bo. He will be an absolute beast in the NHL, physically so much more mature than most other 1st rounders. He was Londons all around best player hunter was quoted as saying he was their MVP. Plays in all situations.
As you said he's very physically mature for his age, how much more can he develop as a player? I'm not saying he won't be a contributor, I'm just not sold on his potential. Don't see the top-6 upside. I'd expect him to be a bottom-6 role player that brings a lot of important elements to a team. I've decided on Boyd Gordon as a comparable. Valuable player but not a top-20 pick based on my own drafting philosophies.

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06-12-2013, 04:49 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
As you said he's very physically mature for his age, how much more can he develop as a player? I'm not saying he won't be a contributor, I'm just not sold on his potential. Don't see the top-6 upside. I'd expect him to be a bottom-6 role player that brings a lot of important elements to a team. I've decided on Boyd Gordon as a comparable. Valuable player but not a top-20 pick based on my own drafting philosophies.
Horvat is almost a sure fire nhler though over the history of the draft a good percent of first rounder don't even make the nhler . I know this is a strong draft but not every sexy pick will make it

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06-12-2013, 05:10 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
Obviously it isn't all about stats but if you can't even make it over a ppg in the OHL in your second year.... it's not even like he has the tools or impeccable technique that would lead you to believe he's got a lot of potential in that area.
You have to understand how London used Horvat. Griffith and Domi got the pure offensive roles on that team.

Horvat played the hard minutes, going up against the other team's best line.

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06-12-2013, 05:18 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
While I agree that you have to pick BPA, it's also right that you can rarely trade for big skilled wingers. It'll generally take two smaller skilled guys to trade for a big skilled winger who may get drafted around the same time.

It's also been said that we already have Pacioretty, Gallagher, Galchenyuk and Eller as four out of our future top 6. We need two guys to pan out. We already have:

Collberg
Vail
Hudon
Kristo

for those roles and they're doing well. Maybe one becomes a top 6 forward? So we can risk taking guys with size this year. If we take:

Mantha - a 50 goal scorer who's 6'5" no matter how you look at it. Who were the last 50 goal scorers with size who failed?
Hartman - looks like a Hartnell clone to me
McCarron - has great potential

and only one turns out, that's all we need. The rest of the guys provide third line depth. Whether those three guys will be around is irrelevant; they are examples. You have to be willing to take calculated risks. Given the current state of our forward prospects, this year we can take the risk of drafting top six potentials with size and skill. You hedge your bets and it's about time that people submitted huge offers to us for our big players rather than the other way around. Nobody will offer anything for our Desharnais's.

We don't need homeruns on our four picks in the first two rounds this year. We've had successful drafts the last few years. What we do need is players with both size and skill. And this is the only place you find them for a reasonable value.
Kinda hard to argue with that. Well put!

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06-12-2013, 05:50 PM
  #93
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Agreed. I should say size, skill and physicality.
Which makes suggesting mantha kind of a head scratcher.

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06-12-2013, 05:55 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by ChesterNimitz View Post
But how really relevant are these mock boards. Each week there's another favorite player of the day.
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Originally Posted by ChesterNimitz View Post
I prefer to write about and discuss probabilities and not possibilities. It leads to a much more fruitful and productive discussion. What is a mock other than an effort to predict, whether assuredly or otherwise, what will happen at the draft?
So the only relevant mock is your own?

Look, we get that you don't think Morin will be available at 25. You don't need to repeat it multiple times a day. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, we understand your position. Same with W3K with his dislike for Mantha. We get it.

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06-12-2013, 06:12 PM
  #95
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Nice list, but I have McCoshen in there instead of Santini and Mueller ahead of Vannelli. I really hope the Habs swipe McCoshen in the second round. Kid has a great two-way game and is quite physical too. He'd look nice on the Habs blueline in 2-3 years from now.
I love McCoshen but want no part of Vannelli. We do not need a soft d-man who will only be good enough offensively to be a complementary piece on the power play and maybe not even on the first unit.

Players like McCoshen are built for the playoffs whereas the Vannelli's of the world are built for the pressbox and a journeyman career among bottom feeders.

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06-12-2013, 06:15 PM
  #96
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Regarding the Habs lack of size and grit and whether we should draft for it:

It seems that the smaller guys in our system just happen to be the best players. We have drafted bigger players, yet guys like Gallagher and DD end up making the team ahead of them. Our greatest need is DEVELOPING the size and toughness we have in the system to make them viable NHL options.

This could bring into question an even greater philosophical question of how we play the game at the NHL level. Our identity is a skilled, speedy team with a strong transition game and good special teams. Players with size and toughness simply have a more difficult time breaking in since they're typically not as naturally talented in these aspects as smaller players.

Ideally, we would have a mix of both, but practically its a very difficult balance to find. We simply can't get bigger and tougher without sacrificing our speed game. And that may not be a bad thing.

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06-12-2013, 06:24 PM
  #97
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Having only watched McCarron in the u18 final, I'm having trouble making up my mind about his skating. Sometimes it looked fine, but other times he seemed behind the rest with his first couple of steps. I found it hard to judge the footwork of a player so much bigger than everyone else on the ice. Looking through reports, I see some differing opinions on this. Do y'all have any thoughts on his skating?

Overall, his game reminded me of Penner. Not sure if he'll have Penner's hands at the next level... on the other hand, maybe he'll play angry more consistently than Penner. Anyway, just the impression I got after the one game.

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06-12-2013, 06:25 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by dcal64 View Post
People keep saying we shouldn't draft for needs, yet if you look at the Habs, most of our core players are Habs draft picks.

All of our forward prospects are on the smallish side (Collberg, Kristo, Hudon), not sure where we will magically find a big gritty Top-6 forward if we don't draft him.

If you think we can sign a UFA big gritty Top-6 forward, just look at our cap space, and see what Clarkson will fetch this year (every team wants big gritty forwards and will overpay for them).

What other options is there, trading for one? Who do we have that we can spare that would fetch us one?

Why do people keep ignoring what Bergevin said at his year-end conference that this team will be built through the draft, and that he wants the team to get bigger.

There's no way we draft Petan in the 1st round, we only draft Petan if he falls to #55 where he becomes a value pick.

Petan has as high of an offensive potential as any other player in this draft. If you pass on that at 25 to draft a third liner... You're mad.

Bergevin never said he'll make the team bigger... He said he wanted more character... Petan is all about character.

Petan-Domi-Gallagher line would be about ten times harder to play against than a Mantha-Gauthier-Pacioretty line.

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06-12-2013, 07:16 PM
  #99
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Can anybody comment about Zykovs skating. I have read its poor and also seen that its fine. If its poor I don't want any part of him but if its good then he should be a possible pick for us because everything else about him sounds good, you know, skills and physical player and he produced great in his first year of CHL.

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06-12-2013, 07:17 PM
  #100
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Petan has as high of an offensive potential as any other player in this draft. If you pass on that at 25 to draft a third liner... You're mad.

Bergevin never said he'll make the team bigger... He said he wanted more character... Petan is all about character.

Petan-Domi-Gallagher line would be about ten times harder to play against than a Mantha-Gauthier-Pacioretty line.
I'd be willing to take the chance on Petan with one of our first three picks. If we go balls to the wall with 3 forwards at 25, 34 and 36... if Petan is one of them the others could be two of McCarron, Poirier and Bailey, for example. I wouldn't hate this:

25 - McCarron
34 - Petan
36 - Poirier/Bailey

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