HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Subban and that bridge contract..(what to expect with his next extension)

View Poll Results: Bridge contract
Bridge contract was a smart deal. It was a good move for both parties 107 54.04%
Should have signed him long term (likely cheaper) when we had the chance. Bit of a blunder by MB. 91 45.96%
Voters: 198. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-12-2013, 11:03 AM
  #301
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I never claimed 110m, trying arguing against my position instead of creating a strawman argument.

I never liked MB's position on this deal. I don't think management should deal in one size fits all manners, especially when dealing with his stars, but I don't see there being even a slight chance pk signed for 27million over 6 years. Price's contract would have been closer to the ballpark.
Well you mentioned Shea Weber who's signed to 110M. I didn't create any thing. I never do.

As for PK looking for Price money, it doesn't make sense, but we will soon find out anyways.
If PK was looking for Price money, or even Doughty money, last year, then after the season he's had, wouldn't you agree that his demand have now risen? Meaning that he will be looking for even more cash.
So if he signs something around 5-6M, then you'll know his demands were likely lower last summer.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 11:06 AM
  #302
ClasslessGuy
Registered User
 
ClasslessGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: St-Jean, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,287
vCash: 500
would a contract like this do the job? :

5.5
5.5
6
6
7
7
7.5
7.5

avr: 6.5

ClasslessGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 11:30 AM
  #303
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,721
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well you mentioned Shea Weber who's signed to 110M. I didn't create any thing. I never do.

As for PK looking for Price money, it doesn't make sense, but we will soon find out anyways.
If PK was looking for Price money, or even Doughty money, last year, then after the season he's had, wouldn't you agree that his demand have now risen? Meaning that he will be looking for even more cash.
So if he signs something around 5-6M, then you'll know his demands were likely lower last summer.
I don't see us getting pk for 5-6million now. When I said weber, I just misspoke, I'm pretty sure you knew I meant Doughty, at any rate, we're arguing over something neither of us know much about.

PK had provided much more to this team than Price did prior to signing his deal. I don't think being a trophy finalist actually changes much, PK knew his worth long before now.

habsfanatics is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 01:48 PM
  #304
Habaddict
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 832
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClasslessGuy View Post
would a contract like this do the job? :

5.5
5.5
6
6
7
7
7.5
7.5

avr: 6.5
Considering the cap is decreasing, at least initially, this could be the
equivalent of 7-7.25 of last year's cap. That might be enough to get a
long term deal. But who knows if Subban and his agent see it that way.

Habaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 02:08 PM
  #305
ClasslessGuy
Registered User
 
ClasslessGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: St-Jean, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habaddict View Post
Considering the cap is decreasing, at least initially, this could be the
equivalent of 7-7.25 of last year's cap. That might be enough to get a
long term deal. But who knows if Subban and his agent see it that way.
good point but the cap might go up in 2 years

ClasslessGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 02:42 PM
  #306
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I don't see us getting pk for 5-6million now. When I said weber, I just misspoke, I'm pretty sure you knew I meant Doughty, at any rate, we're arguing over something neither of us know much about.

PK had provided much more to this team than Price did prior to signing his deal. I don't think being a trophy finalist actually changes much, PK knew his worth long before now.
Even Doughty, he's signed to just under 60M. How can PK justify asking for as much as Doughty? It just makes no sense.

PK had proven more than Price, and yes being a finalist (and possibly a winner) of the Norris chances a lot. That means he was recognized as one of the three best Dman in the NHL, possibly the best, for 2013. If that doesn't add a lot of value, then what does?

There's no way PK's demands don't increase.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 03:36 PM
  #307
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,721
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Even Doughty, he's signed to just under 60M. How can PK justify asking for as much as Doughty? It just makes no sense.

PK had proven more than Price, and yes being a finalist (and possibly a winner) of the Norris chances a lot. That means he was recognized as one of the three best Dman in the NHL, possibly the best, for 2013. If that doesn't add a lot of value, then what does?

There's no way PK's demands don't increase.
Sure there likely to increase, but he more or less had an idea of where he was sitting in terms of dollars. This year will hurt MB during negotiations to an extent, but Subban and Subban's agent already knew he was on his way, most of us knew it, he just got there a year sooner than most thought. Doughty was a ballpark, I don't think pk needed 60million to settle, but 40 at 6/7 years is my guess as to what he was looking for.

I don't see Subban leaving much on the table this time around. It will definitely be interesting to see. I'm guessing we're in the 7-7+ million range now. Could be wrong, but I'd sign him at 56 million over 8 years without blinking an eye.

habsfanatics is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 03:47 PM
  #308
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,246
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I'm sure most of the time the players feel like they are properly paid so that explains why they don't always head to UFA. But if you think all players are willing to simply forgive and forget when they feel slighted you are extremely naive.
actually, if you think people arent greedy enough to take the 50 or 60 Mil (and maybe even more) instead of fighting to prove something, you're the one being naive...

ECWHSWI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 06:41 PM
  #309
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Sure there likely to increase, but he more or less had an idea of where he was sitting in terms of dollars. This year will hurt MB during negotiations to an extent, but Subban and Subban's agent already knew he was on his way, most of us knew it, he just got there a year sooner than most thought. Doughty was a ballpark, I don't think pk needed 60million to settle, but 40 at 6/7 years is my guess as to what he was looking for.

I don't see Subban leaving much on the table this time around. It will definitely be interesting to see. I'm guessing we're in the 7-7+ million range now. Could be wrong, but I'd sign him at 56 million over 8 years without blinking an eye.
How can PK warrant asking for 40M over 6-7years?? You're gonna have to explain to me how you came to this conclusion, or how PK and Meehan came down to it. It makes no sense that they would ask for so much yet settle for so little. If the number difference was so huge, then he would have asked to be traded not agree to a 2year worth 5M. Just doesn't make any sense that he would ask for so much yet settle for so little.
Maybe they threw that number out there as a first attempt (you always shoot high during negotiations, although I still don't think they started that high), but I doubt that's where they were still at when the camp started.
We know for a fact that Bergevin didn't flinch, otherwise, what was the worse deal he was offering??..So my guess is PK kept lowering, and lowering, his offer, until he realized Bergevin just didn't want to move from his stance and eventually agreed to a really cheap deal.
That's probably why we heard different rumors as the negotiations went along.
Doughty rumors came early, so they might have came in with that figure, and then as we got closer to the season, PK dropped it to where he would have agreed to a longer deal around 4.5M. But Bergevin wanted no part of it, and so we found that PK signed for a bit over 5M for 2years, a ridiculously cheap deal.

No matter what happens, we could have saved some cash on PK, which is always better than not saving. Some believe the difference is small, I think it's of a couple millions.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 08:03 PM
  #310
Quagmier
Registered User
 
Quagmier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,861
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Bergevin was universally lauded for his success in the Subban negotiations, he's a GM of the Year nominee now. He's applying a framework in contract negotiation that sets expectations and is consistent. There is no need to Chicken Little this by second guessing what is clearly a good decision.
That's a key word right there. Subban's negotiations will factor significantly when it comes time to negotiate Galchenyuk's 2nd deal. The bridge contract is good business. Plain and simple.

Plus, paying a Norris trophy winner and team leader 7m seems like a far better alternative than having to pay a PP specialist and locker room cancer 5.5m. Bergevin wanted to see with his own eyes that he had something special in PK, and it turned out he had a Norris trophy winner. I don't think he will lose much sleep over his decision.

Quagmier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 08:37 PM
  #311
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmier View Post
That's a key word right there. Subban's negotiations will factor significantly when it comes time to negotiate Galchenyuk's 2nd deal. The bridge contract is good business. Plain and simple.

Plus, paying a Norris trophy winner and team leader 7m seems like a far better alternative than having to pay a PP specialist and locker room cancer 5.5m. Bergevin wanted to see with his own eyes that he had something special in PK, and it turned out he had a Norris trophy winner. I don't think he will lose much sleep over his decision.
You are absolutely right. While some people are concerned about the math, a couple are just trying to pin a mistake on Bergevin. They'd be the first to play the other side of the coin were Subban to walk away after a 5 year deal or if he popped his knee in the first month of a heavy contract. And as you say, heaven forbid future players want the same deal too and throw the cost structure out of line.

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 09:13 PM
  #312
Frozenice
the random dude
 
Frozenice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmier View Post
That's a key word right there. Subban's negotiations will factor significantly when it comes time to negotiate Galchenyuk's 2nd deal. The bridge contract is good business. Plain and simple.

Plus, paying a Norris trophy winner and team leader 7m seems like a far better alternative than having to pay a PP specialist and locker room cancer 5.5m. Bergevin wanted to see with his own eyes that he had something special in PK, and it turned out he had a Norris trophy winner. I don't think he will lose much sleep over his decision.
If Galchenyuk doesn't want a bridge deal he won't accept one. He only has to compare himself to what other centres/forwards equivalent to him are getting and demand that. He'll be offerred an offer sheet, you guys are just in denial.

Frozenice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 09:25 PM
  #313
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
You are absolutely right. While some people are concerned about the math, a couple are just trying to pin a mistake on Bergevin. They'd be the first to play the other side of the coin were Subban to walk away after a 5 year deal or if he popped his knee in the first month of a heavy contract. And as you say, heaven forbid future players want the same deal too and throw the cost structure out of line.
You mean like many still supported Gauthier re-signing Markov even after his injury?
Right, there goes that theory.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 09:27 PM
  #314
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
If Galchenyuk doesn't want a bridge deal he won't accept one. He only has to compare himself to what other centres/forwards equivalent to him are getting and demand that. He'll be offerred an offer sheet, you guys are just in denial.
How many offer sheets do you see each year? The players, agents, GM's all know it's not a very productive way to chase talent.

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 09:27 PM
  #315
Born in 1909
Hockey Royalty
 
Born in 1909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,700
vCash: 500
Trade PK for Vinnie.

Joke.

Born in 1909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 09:31 PM
  #316
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
If Galchenyuk doesn't want a bridge deal he won't accept one. He only has to compare himself to what other centres/forwards equivalent to him are getting and demand that. He'll be offerred an offer sheet, you guys are just in denial.
Galchenyuk will have no power to negotiate, just like PK didn't.
Not sure if the rules changed under the new CBA but if not then Galchenyuk won't be eligible for arbitration which means he has nothing to threaten management with.
All he can do is sit at home and play hard ball, which isn't really good for anybody.

The offer sheet is the only thing he has but that's not entirely in his power. He needs other teams to be interested and willing to give up whatever price it may be in order to sign him.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 09:43 PM
  #317
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You mean like many still supported Gauthier re-signing Markov even after his injury?
Right, there goes that theory.
There is no theory, just an observation that certain people are coin tossers.

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 09:45 PM
  #318
Frozenice
the random dude
 
Frozenice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Galchenyuk will have no power to negotiate, just like PK didn't.
Not sure if the rules changed under the new CBA but if not then Galchenyuk won't be eligible for arbitration which means he has nothing to threaten management with.
All he can do is sit at home and play hard ball, which isn't really good for anybody.

The offer sheet is the only thing he has but that's not entirely in his power. He needs other teams to be interested and willing to give up whatever price it may be in order to sign him.
Or he can go play in the KHL for 2 years but they won't accept him because he's an American.

These bridge deals for your best players are just plain dumb. I can't believe you guys sometimes, your star players have always had the upper hand in negotiations, certainly since they expanded from the Original 6. Drafting a guy 3rd overall and then treating him like second rate trash is just silly, it's not going to fly in the real world.

Frozenice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 09:57 PM
  #319
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
There is no theory, just an observation that certain people are coin tossers.
Well, it's a theory until it happens, but whatever I guess.

A mistake might be a stretch, at the end of the day PK was signed. It's two different philosophies. I believe in locking up young sure talent early as it'll save you some dough long time. You also show to that player that you trust him, and that might translate into some loyalty and hometown discount later on.
Others prefer to play it safe and give a bigger deal once they know for sure.

Two different philosophies, neither are right or wrong, just different.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 10:46 PM
  #320
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,721
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
How can PK warrant asking for 40M over 6-7years?? You're gonna have to explain to me how you came to this conclusion, or how PK and Meehan came down to it. It makes no sense that they would ask for so much yet settle for so little. If the number difference was so huge, then he would have asked to be traded not agree to a 2year worth 5M. Just doesn't make any sense that he would ask for so much yet settle for so little.
Maybe they threw that number out there as a first attempt (you always shoot high during negotiations, although I still don't think they started that high), but I doubt that's where they were still at when the camp started.
We know for a fact that Bergevin didn't flinch, otherwise, what was the worse deal he was offering??..So my guess is PK kept lowering, and lowering, his offer, until he realized Bergevin just didn't want to move from his stance and eventually agreed to a really cheap deal.
That's probably why we heard different rumors as the negotiations went along.
Doughty rumors came early, so they might have came in with that figure, and then as we got closer to the season, PK dropped it to where he would have agreed to a longer deal around 4.5M. But Bergevin wanted no part of it, and so we found that PK signed for a bit over 5M for 2years, a ridiculously cheap deal.

No matter what happens, we could have saved some cash on PK, which is always better than not saving. Some believe the difference is small, I think it's of a couple millions.
Nope.

habsfanatics is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 10:47 PM
  #321
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,246
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well, it's a theory until it happens, but whatever I guess.

A mistake might be a stretch, at the end of the day PK was signed. It's two different philosophies. I believe in locking up young sure talent early as it'll save you some dough long time. You also show to that player that you trust him, and that might translate into some loyalty and hometown discount later on.
Others prefer to play it safe and give a bigger deal once they know for sure.

Two different philosophies, neither are right or wrong, just different.
huh... yeah like in the case of hum, well, huh...

ECWHSWI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 10:54 PM
  #322
CHwest
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 281
vCash: 500
I don't believe PK will win the Norris, I just don't see it, if he does it's because he didn't get a full season look. You guys are severely over rating where he is at, every shift is an adventure and I am at the edge of my seat but not in a good way. Yes he makes some fantastic plays but also makes some bone headed plays as well. I have no doubt he will turn into a very special player but right now he is just making special plays. When I think of Norris I think of Brad Park, Larry in his prime or especially Denis Potvin, all calm and cool, no mistakes. PK is not there yet, plus he is still a restricted so his next contract will still be reasonable, if not his return could be very good, but I wouldn't trade him unless he was impossible to deal with.

CHwest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 10:58 PM
  #323
Frozenice
the random dude
 
Frozenice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHwest View Post
I don't believe PK will win the Norris, I just don't see it, if he does it's because he didn't get a full season look. You guys are severely over rating where he is at, every shift is an adventure and I am at the edge of my seat but not in a good way. Yes he makes some fantastic plays but also makes some bone headed plays as well. I have no doubt he will turn into a very special player but right now he is just making special plays. When I think of Norris I think of Brad Park, Larry in his prime or especially Denis Potvin, all calm and cool, no mistakes. PK is not there yet, plus he is still a restricted so his next contract will still be reasonable, if not his return could be very good, but I wouldn't trade him unless he was impossible to deal with.
Maybe you should tell Subban yourself because he's already made room for the Norris trophy on his trophy shelf. I just hope he takes it well.

Frozenice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 11:43 PM
  #324
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
huh... yeah like in the case of hum, well, huh...
I guess you don't know what the meaning of might is.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2013, 11:47 PM
  #325
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,246
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I guess you don't know what the meaning of might is.
I know it might happen to everyone who's about to sign a new contract with their actual team, just like it happened a thousand times before...

ECWHSWI is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:31 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.