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NYR Top Defensemen of All-Time (Rules & Preliminary Discussion)

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Old
06-08-2013, 02:57 PM
  #176
Mio41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
For what its worth (and probably not alot), Rod Seiling is the career +/- leader among Rangers defensemen. Keep in mind the stat was introduced in 1967-68, so Seiling, Nelson, Brown and Howell's numbers are incomplete. It also completely excludes our pre-Expansion candidates. Threw penalty minutes per game in the table too.

Player From To GP +/- PIM/G
Rod Seiling 1963-1964 1974-1975 644 208 0.66
Brad Park 1968-1969 1975-1976 465 173 1.59
Jim Neilson 1962-1963 1973-1974 810 146 0.95
Dale Rolfe 1970-1971 1974-1975 244 121 1.02
Barry Beck 1979-1980 1985-1986 415 74 1.87
James Patrick 1983-1984 1993-1994 671 70 0.81
Dave Maloney 1974-1975 1984-1985 605 69 1.84
Marek Malik 2005-2006 2007-2008 185 67 1.06
Jeff Beukeboom 1991-1992 1998-1999 520 63 2.23
Reijo Ruotsalainen 1981-1982 1985-1986 389 57 0.4
Ryan McDonagh 2010-2011 2012-2013 169 54 0.47
Arnie Brown 1964-1965 1970-1971 460 46 1.18
Michal Rozsival 2005-2006 2010-2011 432 44 0.87
Ab Demarco Jr. 1969-1970 1972-1973 104 34 0.18
Michael Sauer 2008-2009 2011-2012 98 28 0.98
Mark Hardy 1987-1988 1992-1993 284 25 1.44
Brian Leetch 1987-1988 2003-2004 1129 24 0.47
Andre Dore 1978-1979 1984-1985 139 23 1.1
Anton Stralman 2011-2012 2012-2013 101 23 0.36
Darius Kasparaitis 2002-2003 2006-2007 215 22 1.21
Alexander Karpovtsev 1993-1994 1998-1999 280 21 0.75
Tim Horton 1969-1970 1970-1971 93 21 0.78
Kevin Lowe 1992-1993 1995-1996 217 20 1.21
Ulf Samuelsson 1995-1996 1998-1999 287 19 1.66
Sergei Zubov 1992-1993 1994-1995 165 17 0.37
Gary Doak 1971-1972 1971-1972 49 16 1.1
Harry Howell 1952-1953 1968-1969 1160 14 0.99
Larry Brown 1969-1970 1970-1971 46 14 0.39
Joe Cirella 1990-1991 1992-1993 141 13 1.83
Cory Cross 2002-2003 2002-2003 26 13 0.62
Impressive +- for Rod Seiling never knew that

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06-10-2013, 09:01 AM
  #177
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**ADMIN NOTE**

A friendly reminder that if you would like to participate in the voting rounds, please PM me your top-20 list by end of day Sunday, June 16th. That is this upcoming Sunday. You may send your list before then, and I will send a confirmation PM back when I recieve it.

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06-10-2013, 06:45 PM
  #178
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Sorry to be just catching up.

Don't mean to give this the short shrift, in light of all meaningful contributions by other posters in this thread.

Just to repeat, more succinctly, what I said in the earlier thread about Cs, talking about the dominance of Orr.

We lost the Cup one year in particular. Villemure was at the top of his game. Orr made to crazy shots for 2 goals. He barely got one by to one side. Then on the other, to the other side,

HE MADE THE FRIGGIN PUCK TURN UP LIKE SIDEWAYS!!!!

That's how much room there was.

Orr was unbelievable. Best player ever, AIAEC, imo.

now, as that relates to this thread....

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06-10-2013, 06:51 PM
  #179
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Leetch was awesome. Truly awesome.

Leetch did everything Orr did. To his credit. It's just that Orr had more talent and did it better.

What would be a comparable?

There was a basketball player drafted like 7th same year we got Ewing. I noted him cause he was 6'10" and could move/pass, like a guard, and that is still not common today at that height (magic johnson).

Anyway, as to passing, etc. they called this guy the poor man's larry bird.

That's possibly close enough.
Larry Bird drop it a bit, is to Orr
as Detlef Schrempf, add a bit, is to Leetch.

Except that Orr's impact on the game, and level of domination, was beyond the level of Bird. It's more than LeBron and at least the level of Jordan.

Of course, I'm not a roundball guy, and my hero was Dave DeBuscherre, rest his soul.

But that is a rough way to put this in context.


continuing....

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06-10-2013, 07:01 PM
  #180
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Now Park was different, a better all around player.

Just in the same way you can say Jordan didn't rebound, didn't this, didn't that, but just was insanely dominant, so you could say the same thing about Orr.

Park, especially before the injuries, was better at all defensive aspects of the game. Even better than Orr. Better shot blocker. Better technically at stick checking, but that's a draw because Orr was so much faster than everybody he did not need the best technique. Better at all forms of blocking and D. And he was renown for his hip checks. He had something like a ju-jitsu move, he let you lean into him, and he was so strong, he used your own weight with a push from I'm guessing his pelvis to send you flying. And I mean big guys, too.

And Park was nice on all around shots, got decent Gs, set up a lot of 'bounders.

He never beat out Orr, cause Orr was able to skate around people and had guys like Johnny Bucyk who could put the puck in the net. Park was decently fast, and a great power skater. But Orr was like the wind, not even close.

That's it.

I seen 'em both.
On totality of all factors it is close, but I give it to Park.

Leetch vs. Park, hypothetically, in their primes, Leetch would also dominate on skating, but not to same degree as Orr. Park would get counterplay going the other way.

That's how I size it up.

hope that was helpful.


Last edited by bernmeister: 06-10-2013 at 07:10 PM.
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06-10-2013, 07:09 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratelleitlikeitis View Post
Remember that Rod Seiling was selected to Team Canada in '72 along with Park, Savard, Lapointe, Awrey, Bergman, and Stapleton. Not bad company for a "circus" performer! Should be worth something based on recognition from experts of the era.
Rod Seiling was the underappreciated Dan Girardi of his day.
zero shot. worse than going wide.
It
w a s
s o
s l o w.


It is amazing he scored any!
But he did give up the body and block a lot.
So have to see rest of the names, but suspect he is around bottom quarter or our 20.

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06-10-2013, 07:16 PM
  #182
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After the first 2, is there a consensus on a pecking order?

Haven't seen one yet. Did I miss it?
Would be easier to visualize and revise adding to and taking out from a likely consensus of 25-30 extract from all possible names.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, Crease you listed Horton only 2 seasons w/NYR, so I think he is disqualified. If that's true I have to leave him off. Unfortunate, cause even though we are going strictly on Ranger contribution, I would have given this man, who was such a great player for his career, a spot near 20.

Don't suppose all those coffee and donuts can count for 1 game for 1 season he needs?

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06-11-2013, 06:41 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
On totality of all factors it is close, but I give it to Park.
bern, thanks for sharing your thoughts on Leetch/Park. I never saw Park play. Before my time. Amongst those who saw both, it seems the consensus is that Leetch had better offensive instincts but that Park was the better overall defensemen. If I was doing an all-time draft, I would take Park over Leetch. But this project is a bit different in the sense that I have to consider each player's value to the Rangers franchise. And Leetch is the clear winner there. Even if we take the outliers out of the league (Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux) to make things fair, does Park accumulate the Rangers resume that Leetch had? Does he get a Conn Smythe? How many Norrises? And even then, does it outweigh Leetch's resume, which includes those things on top of 17 years of service?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
After the first 2, is there a consensus on a pecking order?

Haven't seen one yet. Did I miss it?
Would be easier to visualize and revise adding to and taking out from a likely consensus of 25-30 extract from all possible names.
After Leetch/Park, it's hard to say. Howell started off as my #3 but I learn more about the pre-WWII teams, he's starting to fall. I would suggest taking a close look at guys like Art Coulter, Ott Heller, Ching Johnson, Babe Pratt, and Earl Seibert (listed alphabetically to avoid bias). In the post-WWII era Barry Beck, Jeff Beukeboom, Bill Gadsby, Ron Greschner, Harry Howell (of course), Alexander Karpovtsev, Dave Maloney, Jim Neilson, James Patrick, Rod Seiling, Alan Stanley, Carol Vadnais (listed alphabetically to avoid bias). Right now I have Johnson and Coulter in my top 5. I'm also very high on Gadsby. I'm starting to like what I'm reading about Seiling, Patrick, and Heller. Also Doug Harvey might just make my top 10 ala Gretzky.

Am I missing anyone noteworthy?

Someone mentioned earlier that unlike the Centers project, we're not going to be in a situation where we're trying to keep guys out of the Top 10. I agree. I think Round 2 Vote 2 (for spots 6-10) is going to be contentious (in a fun way) and that worthy guys are going to miss the cut.


Last edited by Crease: 06-11-2013 at 07:31 AM.
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06-11-2013, 05:25 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
bern, thanks for sharing your thoughts on Leetch/Park. I never saw Park play. Before my time. Amongst those who saw both, it seems the consensus is that Leetch had better offensive instincts but that Park was the better overall defensemen. If I was doing an all-time draft, I would take Park over Leetch. But this project is a bit different in the sense that I have to consider each player's value to the Rangers franchise. And Leetch is the clear winner there. Even if we take the outliers out of the league (Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux) to make things fair, does Park accumulate the Rangers resume that Leetch had? Does he get a Conn Smythe? How many Norrises? And even then, does it outweigh Leetch's resume, which includes those things on top of 17 years of service?

... Am I missing anyone noteworthy? ...
Crease, thank you.
If someone wants to emphasize value to the franchise that is their right. It's fair to add to a guy like Callahan to say he is the heart and soul of the club. I don't believe it should be a dominant factor. Important measure of contribution, yes; dominant no. Just MO.

To answer your other ?s., it is hard to say cause it was initially an original six situation, and Rangers got killed by (1) Orr; and (2) a Canadiens team that was like the '61 Yankees. I am willing to hear on the subject, but IMO Park was the best D after Orr. He would have taken like 5 in his prime, I think, before his knees would have narrowed the gap. Hard to say on a Conn Smythe. Would have gone to who was hot. That likely would have been Ratelle, but it could have been others.

The Rangers of these years were not quite like the Canadiens counterparts. Any of 5 or 6 forwards were equally prominent as Beliveau was at the end. Their D was not as star studded, but worked fabulously as a whole. And Ken Dryden was unbelievable.

Again, in final conclusion. Park could do everything. Most of what he did, he did better than Leetch if you put them up for a skills competition 1 to 1. But the one thing Leetch clearly did better (some were close and the rest were advantage to Park), which was to skate like an Orr lite, was significant. It raises them closer together. But not enough to overtake the better all around player, IMO.

I don't think we're missing anybody. But I'm not speaking authoritatively on the subject. I really want to get Horton on the list but I think he's just under as to minimum seasons to qualify.

If he died in a car crash as I think I remember, during the off season, while this is not a Thurman Munson situation, can we give him a pass for being one game/one season short?

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06-11-2013, 08:01 PM
  #185
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If I read the stats correctly, Tim Horton played two years for the Rangers in the twilight of his career before moving on to Pittsburgh and Buffalo for three more seasons. He played 93 games as a Ranger with 26 points. No disrespect intended to a Hall of Famer for the Leafs but I can't see him in our top twenty. This from someone who has a double double from Timmy's almost daily.

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06-12-2013, 03:01 PM
  #186
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I think Crease's reasoning is pretty good as far as I see it. Personally I think Leetch comes in No.1 over No. 2 Park and for several reasons--including his longevity with the team (not really Park's fault but it is what it is) but even more importantly the Stanley Cup Conn Smythe that Park never really approached--but even so I think Leetch was the better player and I did see Park as a Ranger--started following the team in 71-72. After those two--Ching Johnson, Art Couter No. 3 and 4. Babe Pratt No. 5 and Harry Howell No. 6. Gadsby, Seibert, Colville fighting it out for the 7.

Harvey was a terrific player but his time with the Rangers was really short--he gets cut. Same deal with Horton.

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06-12-2013, 05:56 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Ratelleitlikeitis View Post
If I read the stats correctly, Tim Horton played two years for the Rangers in the twilight of his career before moving on to Pittsburgh and Buffalo for three more seasons. He played 93 games as a Ranger with 26 points. No disrespect intended to a Hall of Famer for the Leafs but I can't see him in our top twenty. This from someone who has a double double from Timmy's almost daily.
Thank you.
I knew he was near the end of the line with us, but had forgotten if he went Terry Sawchuk quick exit on us in a car crash, or if that was a little later.

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06-12-2013, 06:17 PM
  #188
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Ok, I'll be first to do a rough sketch on a top 20:

so far it's look and feel from comments, personal memories, considering stats, etc.
will justify later and put some rationale later. this is prelim.


1 Park
2 Leetch
3 Ching Johnson
4 Art Couter
5 Babe Pratt
6 Gadsby
7 Harry Howell
8 Seibert
9 Colville
10 Marc Staal
11 Ryan McDonagh
12 Sergei Zubov
13 Carol Vadnais
14 Jim Neilson
15 Barry Beck
16 Jeff Beukeboom
17 Reijo Ruotsalainen
18 James Patrick
19 Ron Greschner
20 Dale Rolfe

I want to say Mark McEwen, a bit below Rexy Rutso.
MM alternated between D and W if I remember properly or am I off on that?

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06-12-2013, 06:20 PM
  #189
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Eco (and Bern too now), interesting to read that you have Colville fighting it out for the no. 7 spot. If memory from the centers thread serves me correctly, he switched to D after ww2 and played 4 more seasons, being named to the AST at least once. Were his 4 seasons that good that he should be top 10?

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06-12-2013, 06:54 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by mike14 View Post
Eco (and Bern too now), interesting to read that you have Colville fighting it out for the no. 7 spot. If memory from the centers thread serves me correctly, he switched to D after ww2 and played 4 more seasons, being named to the AST at least once. Were his 4 seasons that good that he should be top 10?
I'm preliminary here.
I just wanted to get a rough pecking order done so if I get slammed I have something to send Crease before the deadline.

That's not to say this was hodgepodge throw it at the wall and see what sticks.
It's more like I've got the top 2 set and then I have an expectation of approx. where the others are, and I too am considering all slots, espec. 3-20 w/an open mind.

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06-12-2013, 07:18 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post

That's not to say this was hodgepodge throw it at the wall and see what sticks.
It's more like I've got the top 2 set and then I have an expectation of approx. where the others are, and I too am considering all slots, espec. 3-20 w/an open mind.
Oh yeah, your top 10 is very similar to mine except that I have Heller up there and no Colville.

I dismissed Colville pretty early on, just wondering what I've possibly overlooked that had others putting him so high

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06-12-2013, 07:21 PM
  #192
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Oh yeah, your top 10 is very similar to mine except that I have Heller up there and no Colville.

I dismissed Colville pretty early on, just wondering what I've possibly overlooked that had others putting him so high
outstanding contributions as an F, I understand, before absence to serve in military. His D stats are only the tail end of his career. Yet I gather they were meaningful.

But yeah, I gotta look at it closer before weekend.
He could be up, down a couple.

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06-12-2013, 07:23 PM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Ok, I'll be first to do a rough sketch on a top 20:

so far it's look and feel from comments, personal memories, considering stats, etc.
will justify later and put some rationale later. this is prelim.


1 Park
2 Leetch
3 Ching Johnson
4 Art Couter
5 Babe Pratt
6 Gadsby
7 Harry Howell
8 Seibert
9 Colville
10 Marc Staal
11 Ryan McDonagh
12 Sergei Zubov
13 Carol Vadnais
14 Jim Neilson
15 Barry Beck
16 Jeff Beukeboom
17 Reijo Ruotsalainen
18 James Patrick
19 Ron Greschner
20 Dale Rolfe

I want to say Mark McEwen, a bit below Rexy Rutso.
MM alternated between D and W if I remember properly or am I off on that?
I love McD... but #11 after basically playing two seasons worth of games (169)? I don't know about that one.

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06-12-2013, 07:31 PM
  #194
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I love McD... but #11 after basically playing two seasons worth of games (169)? I don't know about that one.
Fair enough.
But while he has to actually fulfill his potential, I seem as being better than the guys behind him.

That deserves another look.
Thoughts? Vadnais, maybe?

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06-12-2013, 07:46 PM
  #195
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Fair enough.
But while he has to actually fulfill his potential, I seem as being better than the guys behind him.

That deserves another look.
Thoughts? Vadnais, maybe?
Body of work isn't large enough, IMHO. If he spends a few more years here then he might be in the conversation.

James Patrick ahead for sure.

Beck? Nah. I was never big on Beck. Always more of a disappointment than anything to me. I'm sure he'll make most top 20 lists. Personally, I think Roszival had a better Rangers career than Beck did. That thought will bring some heat, I'm sure.

Zubov is another question mark for me. 165 or whatever games just isn't enough to be on a top 20 all time list for a franchise as old as the Rangers, despite his contributions to the Cup.

Reijo ahead for sure. Same with Gresch. Dave Maloney. Vadnais.


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06-13-2013, 04:15 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by mike14 View Post
Eco (and Bern too now), interesting to read that you have Colville fighting it out for the no. 7 spot. If memory from the centers thread serves me correctly, he switched to D after ww2 and played 4 more seasons, being named to the AST at least once. Were his 4 seasons that good that he should be top 10?
Obviously there are not too many around that saw Colville--quite probably nobody currently posting on this site. If we're doing an all time list though we should make allowances. There are reasons to narrow the list of players we've seen as well as narrow the list of those we haven't. Just as obviously some players stood out more in their eras. For those we haven't seen being an HOF'er kind of separates a player from the pack. Other awards help as well. Coulter as the captain of the Rangers 1940 SC winning team and a HOF player kind of makes picking him an easy one. Johnson and Eddie Shore may have been the two best D of their time. Neil Colville as an HOF'er--also played for the 1940 SC team should fit somewhere high--whether forward or defense even if his career was shortened by a war and his stats might not all that impressive.

There are also outliers and Ott Heller was probably one of them. Not an HoF'er--at least not yet there seems to be a lot of remembrance of his being a signigicant player. A guy like Zubov might be an HoF'er one day--OTOH Zubov's time with the Rangers was kind of short. Guys like Greschner, Ruotsolainen, Beck who many here have seen and were popular and very talented players are not likely to become HOF'ers. Excellent players but only good choices if you're picking a team from players you've actually seen--doesn't quite meet the standard of an all time roster for me.

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06-13-2013, 06:36 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
There are also outliers and Ott Heller was probably one of them. Not an HoF'er--at least not yet there seems to be a lot of remembrance of his being a signigicant player. A guy like Zubov might be an HoF'er one day--OTOH Zubov's time with the Rangers was kind of short. Guys like Greschner, Ruotsolainen, Beck who many here have seen and were popular and very talented players are not likely to become HOF'ers. Excellent players but only good choices if you're picking a team from players you've actually seen--doesn't quite meet the standard of an all time roster for me.
Greschner is going to get some consideration from me. 3nd all-time in games played and 2nd all-time in points among franchise defensemen. Though he doesn't have as high of a peak as a lot of other candidates, I don't want to discount the overall service he put in with this franchise.

I know everyone weighs peak and longevity differently. I certainly don't have the perfect formula. Buf if we put too much emphasis on peak and not enough on longevity in a project like this, then the implication would be that Tim Thomas is among the very top goaltenders of all-time.


Last edited by Crease: 06-13-2013 at 09:33 AM.
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06-13-2013, 10:01 AM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Ok, I'll be first to do a rough sketch on a top 20:

so far it's look and feel from comments, personal memories, considering stats, etc.
will justify later and put some rationale later. this is prelim.


1 Park
2 Leetch
3 Ching Johnson
4 Art Couter
5 Babe Pratt
6 Gadsby
7 Harry Howell
8 Seibert
9 Colville
10 Marc Staal
11 Ryan McDonagh
12 Sergei Zubov
13 Carol Vadnais
14 Jim Neilson
15 Barry Beck
16 Jeff Beukeboom
17 Reijo Ruotsalainen
18 James Patrick
19 Ron Greschner
20 Dale Rolfe

I want to say Mark McEwen, a bit below Rexy Rutso.
MM alternated between D and W if I remember properly or am I off on that?
Thanks Bern for doing this. It makes it easier to sort your own list when you see one in front of you. I also think it's good to get people talking about the "bottom 10" since many in the Top 10 will undoubtedly make the cut on everyone's list.

Now, to nitpick your list - LOL!

IMHO McD hasn't done enough long enough to be on the list. Lowe's contributions meant more to the team, being a defensive rock, helping the Rangers to the Cup. I think you could argue Girardi should make the list above McD because of solid yEars of service and an ASG appearance - there aren't that many Ranger D who've played in ASG's.

A guy like Greschner who held so many Ranger records for Dmen has to be Top 10, if not Top 5. Gresch had the ability like Jagr to slow the game down when the puck was on his stick.

Beck warrants Top 10 consideration as well. There were times where he looked like his era's Pronger in terms of physicality and offensive production (when he shot the puck, that is!). Had he done it more consistently, there'd be no argument.

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06-13-2013, 10:52 AM
  #199
Mio41
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I love McD... but #11 after basically playing two seasons worth of games (169)? I don't know about that one.
Hopefully someday Mcd will be in the top 2, Leetch had quite a few mediocre seasons defensively

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06-13-2013, 11:22 AM
  #200
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Not including Rod Seiling in the top 20 is wrong.

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