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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Which of these two nordic duos do you take?

View Poll Results: Which pair is better?
Jari Kurri & Teemu Selanne 34 50.75%
Peter Forsberg & Mats Sundin 33 49.25%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-06-2013, 08:08 AM
  #26
Wrigley
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The voting is close, but it shouldn't be. You have 2 of the top 80 players of all time vs. a guy who barely cracks the top 200.

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Old
05-06-2013, 08:31 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I just dont think Kurri was a much better player than Sundin if he had'nt had Gretzky. This is a tight choice but i go with the playmaker and the large second line center who could carry a team. Perfect to have the Mats in this kind of role.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmm View Post
The voting is close, but it shouldn't be. You have 2 of the top 80 players of all time vs. a guy who barely cracks the top 200.
Sundin doesn't get the credit he deserves for delivering consistently great hockey. He doesn't have the highs of Forsberg, Kurri, or Selanne, but he's the one with 16-consecutive years of at worst 0.90 point-per-game hockey while missing just 3 games per season.

I swear, there are some people on HOH who would read The Tortoise and the Hare to their children, and add a line at the end about how it's okay because the Hare peaked higher.

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Old
05-06-2013, 10:08 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Sundin doesn't get the credit he deserves for delivering consistently great hockey. He doesn't have the highs of Forsberg, Kurri, or Selanne, but he's the one with 16-consecutive years of at worst 0.90 point-per-game hockey while missing just 3 games per season.

I swear, there are some people on HOH who would read The Tortoise and the Hare to their children, and add a line at the end about how it's okay because the Hare peaked higher.
The Tortoise and the Hare is the story of Teemu Selanne and Paul Kariya. Kariya was better at his best than Selanne ever was, but Selanne was able to be better longer (yes, injury, I know) and stay healthier. Selanne retiring in 2004 sees Kariya as with better peak, prime, and career.

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Old
05-06-2013, 12:40 PM
  #29
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the correct answer is Espen Knutsen and Ole-Kristian Tollefsen

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Old
05-06-2013, 09:58 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
the correct answer is Espen Knutsen and Ole-Kristian Tollefsen
No. The correct answer is Anze Kopitar and Jan Mursak.

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05-07-2013, 03:32 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
No. The correct answer is Anze Kopitar and Jan Mursak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic

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05-07-2013, 09:16 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Sundin doesn't get the credit he deserves for delivering consistently great hockey. He doesn't have the highs of Forsberg, Kurri, or Selanne, but he's the one with 16-consecutive years of at worst 0.90 point-per-game hockey while missing just 3 games per season.

I swear, there are some people on HOH who would read The Tortoise and the Hare to their children, and add a line at the end about how it's okay because the Hare peaked higher.
./signed

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Old
05-07-2013, 11:28 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
the correct answer is Espen Knutsen and Ole-Kristian Tollefsen
That would be pretty lethal duo.

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Old
05-07-2013, 11:43 AM
  #34
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I miss the Nagano Olympics where I could see Kurri and Selšnne on the same PP.

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Old
05-07-2013, 12:06 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
I was folowing the "duos" rule. Not the "Nordic" part.

On that note, I must also submit Frans Nielsen/Lars Eller.

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Old
05-07-2013, 02:14 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The Tortoise and the Hare is the story of Teemu Selanne and Paul Kariya. Kariya was better at his best than Selanne ever was, but Selanne was able to be better longer (yes, injury, I know) and stay healthier. Selanne retiring in 2004 sees Kariya as with better peak, prime, and career.
Really?

Selanne up to 04:
879gp 452g 499a 951pts
Top10 finishes:
goals 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd
assists 4th, 7th, 9th, 9th
points 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th

Kariya career:
989gp 402g 587a 989pts
Top10 finishes:
goals 4th 7th, 9th, 10th
assists 3rd, 8th
points 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th

3 best seasons by points:
Selanne 241gp 349pts
Kariya 233gp 308pts

3 best seasons by adjusted points:
Selanne 237gp 342pts
Kariya 233gp 322pts

3 best seasons by goals:
Selanne 235gp 179g
Kariya 225gp 136g

3 best seasons by adjusted goals:
Selanne 232gp 176g
Kariya 225gp 140g

That's Kariyas whole career vs Selanne up to 04 statistically.

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Old
05-07-2013, 09:19 PM
  #37
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Really?

Selanne up to 04:
879gp 452g 499a 951pts
Top10 finishes:
goals 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd
assists 4th, 7th, 9th, 9th
points 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th

Kariya career:
989gp 402g 587a 989pts
Top10 finishes:
goals 4th 7th, 9th, 10th
assists 3rd, 8th
points 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th

3 best seasons by points:
Selanne 241gp 349pts
Kariya 233gp 308pts

3 best seasons by adjusted points:
Selanne 237gp 342pts
Kariya 233gp 322pts

3 best seasons by goals:
Selanne 235gp 179g
Kariya 225gp 136g

3 best seasons by adjusted goals:
Selanne 232gp 176g
Kariya 225gp 140g

That's Kariyas whole career vs Selanne up to 04 statistically.
Career as teammates (and linemates):

Anaheim (Feb 7th, 1996* through March 5th, 2001)
Paul Kariya 327GP, 184-228-412 (0.56-0.70-1.26)
Teemu Selanne 394GP, 225-257-482 (0.57-0.65-1.22)

*-does not include game played on Feb 7th, 1996 which Selanne was unavailable for.

Colorado (2003-04, centered by Joe Sakic!)
Paul Kariya 51GP, 11-25-36 (0.22-0.49-0.71)
Teemu Selanne 78GP, 16-16-32 (0.21-0.21-0.41)

Total
Paul Kariya 378GP, 195-253-448 (0.52-0.67-1.19)
Teemu Selanne 472GP, 241-273-514 (0.51-0.58-1.09)

Now, an 82-game projection for Selanne for the total rates, with Kariya's GP pro-rated to match as a fraction of Selanne's.

Total
Paul Kariya 66GP, 34-44-78
Teemu Selanne 82GP, 42-47-89

If he were healthy for those figurative 16 games, Kariya only needs to produce the offense of a below-average second-liner or perhaps even a third liner to outpace Selanne.

Yes, this leaves good years of of the careers of each. But it encapsulates the peak and the prime.

So basically, what's left is to compare Kariya's remaining years in Anaheim and then post-Colorado against Selanne's time in Winnipeg and San Jose.

I would argue that Kariya holds the advantage. Selanne only has true one standout season where he was not a teammate of Kariya if he retires in 2004; Kariya is thus viewed as the more established and "true" star and hindsight bumps Selanne down a peg from where he is currently viewed due to his longevity.

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Old
05-07-2013, 09:56 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
I miss the Nagano Olympics where I could see Kurri and Selšnne on the same PP.
That was only on 5-3 powerplays and not often.

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Old
05-08-2013, 01:45 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
That was only on 5-3 powerplays and not often.
Still amazing enough to stay on my memory


Selšnne - Koivu - Lehtinen
Kurri - Numminen

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Old
05-08-2013, 06:17 AM
  #40
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Forsberg/Sundin easy decision for me

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05-08-2013, 07:32 AM
  #41
pdd
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Forsberg/Sundin easy decision for me
Dunno why, Kurri was a Flyer too.

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05-08-2013, 05:43 PM
  #42
jepjepjoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Career as teammates (and linemates):

Anaheim (Feb 7th, 1996* through March 5th, 2001)
Paul Kariya 327GP, 184-228-412 (0.56-0.70-1.26)
Teemu Selanne 394GP, 225-257-482 (0.57-0.65-1.22)
Interesting how their GP totals are different as linemates... One could make an argument that Kariya's PPG is higher because he had better linemates

Quote:
Colorado (2003-04, centered by Joe Sakic!)
Paul Kariya 51GP, 11-25-36 (0.22-0.49-0.71)
Teemu Selanne 78GP, 16-16-32 (0.21-0.21-0.41)
Sure, Joe "Steve Konowalchuk" Sakic centered Teemu "one knee" Selanne on the 3rd/4th line.

Kariya-Sakic-Selanne actually was a line at one point of the season.

Quote:
Total
Paul Kariya 378GP, 195-253-448 (0.52-0.67-1.19)
Teemu Selanne 472GP, 241-273-514 (0.51-0.58-1.09)

Now, an 82-game projection for Selanne for the total rates, with Kariya's GP pro-rated to match as a fraction of Selanne's.

Total
Paul Kariya 66GP, 34-44-78
Teemu Selanne 82GP, 42-47-89
Statistics 101 *Swooosh*

Quote:
Yes, this leaves good years of of the careers of each. But it encapsulates the peak and the prime.
Sure

Quote:
I would argue that Kariya holds the advantage. Selanne only has true one standout season where he was not a teammate of Kariya if he retires in 2004; Kariya is thus viewed as the more established and "true" star and hindsight bumps Selanne down a peg from where he is currently viewed due to his longevity
List the things Kariya achieved without Selanne.

...

I'll help you:

8th in Assists in 02-03

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Old
06-13-2013, 11:13 AM
  #43
Boxscore
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Forsberg and Sundin.

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06-13-2013, 03:41 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I swear, there are some people on HOH who would read The Tortoise and the Hare to their children, and add a line at the end about how it's okay because the Hare peaked higher.
the difference that makes the analogy fall apart is that the goal of hockey is to win stanley cups, not compile career totals after the "hares" have slowed down or retired.

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06-13-2013, 03:43 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
the difference that makes the analogy fall apart is that the goal of hockey is to win stanley cups, not compile career totals after the "hares" have slowed down or retired.
The analogy would fall apart in tennis, or golf, or other sports where the player is the sole source of his outcome.

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06-13-2013, 04:10 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I just dont think Kurri was a much better player than Sundin if he had'nt had Gretzky.
I'm not sure whether to or or at comments like this. I've been hearing this crap for 30 years now: "Kurri was nothing without Gretzky."

Did people who say this actually ever watch Kurri play? Seriously, he's the most underrated player of all-time, both in his day, & now.

He was easily the best out of the four in this thread:

: Top 5 playoff performer in my lifetime, really stepped it up post-season, always played hard. Six runs to the finals, top 3 player for the Oilers every playoff run. Best Oiler in 87, deserved the Smythe over Hextall. Hell, he had a monster run that year, & beat Hextall in game 7 with a beautiful goal, then successfully protected the lead. + No Kurri on the Oilers in 90 = no Cup.

: Elite sniper, natural goal-scoring ability. Only Bossy & Lemieux were better pure goal scorers in the 80s.

: Excellent defensive play, covered well for Gretzky. Deserved a couple of Selkes. Only Carbonneau was definitively, consistently better than him in a defensive role in the mid to late 80s & early 90s.

: Possibly one of the best-conditioned athletes of his time period. Played at a consistent high level of competition better than most of his peers. Stayed healthy unlike Forsberg, & went into the same high traffic areas. Didn't shy away from the ruff stuff.

: Hella clutch. Scored goals when needed most: short-handed, power play, game winning. Goals that would turn games around.

: Rarely made mistakes. Least mistake-prone Oiler. Few giveaways. Good hockey sense, smart positional play.

: Excellent playmaker & set-up man. Not his primary skill, of course, but during his prime probably a top 10-15 guy in playmaking.

: Could seamlessly play all three forward positions plus point on the power play.

: Quite leadership style, led by example rather than bullying like Messier.

Without Gretzky, I have no doubt that Kurri would've been a 50+ goal, 100-point guy consistently during his prime. His lack of personal hardware is due to being overshadowed by Gretzky & Messier.

I dig the play of all four guys mentioned in this thread, & rank them thusly:

1. Kurri
2. Forsberg
3. Selanne
4. Sundin

So I voted Kurri/Selanne without hesitation.

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