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The sad state of German hockey

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06-12-2013, 09:32 AM
  #1
Maverick41
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The sad state of German hockey

So, according to the DEB there will be no season in the 2.Bundesliga this year.
They will start again in 2014/15.
Hannover, Riessersee and Kaufbeuren who are supporting the DEB will be playing in the Oberliga this year, while the other 9 teams (Crimmitschau, Bietigheim, Heilbronn, Bremerhaven, Rosenheim, Ravensburg, Dresden, Weißwasser and Bad Nauheim) still plan to start their rogue league (DEL II).

Can somebody explain to me why nobody involved really seems to care about German hockey?

Personally I tend to side with the rogue teams because I believe it would be best if the teams would govern their leagues themselves while the DEB focusses on the national team.

One thing's for sure this neverending quarrel will not help German hockey going forward, but no one seems inclined to resolve the issue unless they get everything they want. Seriously do these people even know how a compromise works?

What do other German hockey fans here think about this?
Opinions from non Germans are welcome too, of course.

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06-12-2013, 12:16 PM
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mexicohockey
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I am siding the federation on this.

DEL is still far from being a success, ESBG has been a complete joke, there is simply not enough demand for a tier-2 pro-league in Germany.

Furthermore, a rogue league will create a complete mess. The swiss model, as proposed by DEB, makes sense.

For german readers:
http://www.hockeyweb.de/del/nachrich...ch-der-2-liga/

I support the conclusion taken there

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06-12-2013, 05:43 PM
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Joey Banana
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The sad state of hockey is the DEB's fault and has been for several decades.

The DEL isn't overly successful but actually managed to form a nation-wide junior league (DNL) and has turned non-contributors to youth hockey like Berlin, Mannheim, Köln and Düsseldorf into one of the best places for young german hockey players to go to (not to mention some of the homegrown talent they managed to develop like Hecht, Draisaitl or Gogulla).
That wasn't the case before the DEL existed.

Another fact is, german hockey fans need to realize that there are no more than 20-24 locations/teams that can sustain themselves in a pro league in germany without great financial help by investors. Arguably even less. It doesn't make sense to allow lower market teams to play in higher tiers where they'd be facing financial issues if they'd want to compete or bigger markets to play in lower tiers thus limiting the quality of play and possibly ruin their potential profit.

But the main reason why the DEL 2 is the right choice (i'm not saying it's anywhere near perfect but it's definitely the best option right now) are the possibility of 2-way contracts for young players and eventually relegations/promotions between the DEL and Germany's second tier league. Imo, that's only happening with a DEL 2 and only if the DEL 2 teams have the financial security to grow, find potent sponsors and acquire larger fan bases to be able to compete with current DEL teams in the future (some of them are already, Bietigheim for example)

Sorry for my bad english and i hope it's at least understandable.

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06-12-2013, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Maverick41 View Post
Personally I tend to side with the rogue teams because I believe it would be best if the teams would govern their leagues themselves while the DEB focusses on the national team.
Absolutely not. The last thing German hockey needs is another organization that is solely caring about its members and doing its own thing. German hockey is fragmented enough.
The ideal situation would be if there was one entity organizing the whole hockey landscape in Germany, from top to bottom. I don't care who that would be and even though I feel like the DEB is an old boys club, it's still better than nothing and does have some authority (plus the national team).
We as German hockey fans will at some point have to accept that a regular promotion and relegation is simply not feasible at this point. Even most DEL clubs are kept alive artificially and that will not change anytime soon.
There will always be conflicting interests and that's why, in my opinion, a strong hand would be required that can enforce its will on all the organizations.

All we can hope for is that there will be a continuous effort to promote the sport in the country to make it more attractive (the shift from Sky to ServusTV was actually a huge step into this direction) and the Sabos, Hopps, etc. don't lose their interest in the matter.
The absolutely pathetic performances of the national won't help, though.

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06-13-2013, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by nuernberger View Post
Absolutely not. The last thing German hockey needs is another organization that is solely caring about its members and doing its own thing. German hockey is fragmented enough.
The ideal situation would be if there was one entity organizing the whole hockey landscape in Germany, from top to bottom. I don't care who that would be and even though I feel like the DEB is an old boys club, it's still better than nothing and does have some authority (plus the national team).
We as German hockey fans will at some point have to accept that a regular promotion and relegation is simply not feasible at this point. Even most DEL clubs are kept alive artificially and that will not change anytime soon.
There will always be conflicting interests and that's why, in my opinion, a strong hand would be required that can enforce its will on all the organizations.

All we can hope for is that there will be a continuous effort to promote the sport in the country to make it more attractive (the shift from Sky to ServusTV was actually a huge step into this direction) and the Sabos, Hopps, etc. don't lose their interest in the matter.
The absolutely pathetic performances of the national won't help, though.

The best thing would be if DEL (including the rogue teams) and DEB were able to work together (kind of like DFL and DFB), but with the current personnel on both sides that is not going to happen. The DEL has done a better job in marketing their product than the DEB has ever done, so from a business standpoint them running the leagues makes sense.
I agree that they need to look at the big picture and not just the welfare of their teams, but I still prefer them running the show compared to a federation which has a leadership that has proven its incompetence again and again over the years.
I mean what can the DEB actually do? They have little to no money and thus can do little to promote the game or help the development of young players.
I bet they would like to but they can't.

The main reasons we produce somewhat decent players at all, are a lot of voluntary coaches who are laying the foundation at small, clubs helping to get kids interested in the game, and, as you said, the involvement of guys like Hopp or Sabo paying a lot of money out of their own pockets. The fact of the matter is, that German hockey does not have the money to copy what they did in Switzerland.

To clarify I am not sold on the DEL and DEL II approach, I only feel it is the lesser of two evils, although it is pretty much a toss up.

I wish we could get rid of all these clowns and find some competent people on both sides who would be willing to work together FOR German hockey and not AGAINST it.

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06-13-2013, 11:24 AM
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would this current situation not make German hockey ripe for the pickings for a khl expansion team in Munich or Berlin?
secondly how do u guys think such a team would be received by DEL fans?

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06-13-2013, 12:10 PM
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Maverick41
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Originally Posted by MadarameIkakku83 View Post
would this current situation not make German hockey ripe for the pickings for a khl expansion team in Munich or Berlin?
secondly how do u guys think such a team would be received by DEL fans?
Personally I don't think too many people would care about a KHL team. In my opinion what gets hockey fans here going are the rivalries that stem from long years of competition and/or geographical proximity.

But I may be wrong. I don't know too many other hockey fans, so I have no idea what the majority would feel about this.

As far as Berlin or Munich go I don't think those would be goos places for a KHL team, since they have DEL teams with the backing of very potent sponsors.

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06-13-2013, 05:22 PM
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The mighty DEB has already proven repeatedly its incompetence at anything but staging international tournaments, so the DEL 2 idea deserves a chance. I doubt it will improve all that much but at least it will be run by people with a direct stake in the well-being of that league instead of some bureaucratic pencil pushers who couldn't hack it in league competition so they work for the federation instead. The fact that Kaufbeuren aside, only currently (Hannover) or perennially (Riessersee and Bad Tölz, the latter still owe the ESBG clubs money after folding during a recent season) bankrupt clubs are supporting the DEB speaks for itself.

The federation riled up the ESBG teams to demand guaranteed promotion to the DEL to the point where negotiations between both leagues broke down and loaning out players (Förderlizenz) became impossible, then turned around and made their own agreement with the DEL just so they would still get their national team players. The DEB also has no handle on the 3rd tier leagues (that it technically governs) who refuse to let their few cash cow teams like Kassel or Frankfurt move up to the ESBG.

Why should the majority of the 2. Bundesliga still trust that incestous old boys network? I'd rather see them hook up with the DEL to form one self-governing body for the two dozen pro teams Germany can sustain, and leave the semi-pros and amateurs to the amateurs at the DEB headquarters. They've provided nothing to the ESBG, so screw them.

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06-14-2013, 06:12 AM
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Chapin Landvogt
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Sad state indeed... Without DEB involvement though, the development of players (i.e. children) will go by the wayside, unless teams feel it necessary to do it - and pay for it - on their own accord.

Hope an answer comes soon...

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06-14-2013, 06:35 AM
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I'm not going to get into that DEL2/DEB-thing more than saying that the DEL2 concept seems to be the slightly less bad one.

About a KHL-team in Germany:
I 'm not sure about it.
I'd guess a "real" hockey fan wouldn't care where his/her team's opponent is coming from, as long as they can see a good game.
But from what I observe during the European Trophy in Berlin, there seem to be coming more people to the games against Hamburg then to those against other European teams.
So, for the normal visitor it seems to be more important to know the opponent than to have a (hopefully) better level of hockey.

Edit:
@Chapin Landvogt: That's what the DEB should exist for in my opinion: youth hockey, national team, maybe referees. Not for organizing the pro-league(s)...


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06-15-2013, 05:21 AM
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Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by Sealink View Post
About a KHL-team in Germany:
I 'm not sure about it.
I'd guess a "real" hockey fan wouldn't care where his/her team's opponent is coming from, as long as they can see a good game.
But from what I observe during the European Trophy in Berlin, there seem to be coming more people to the games against Hamburg then to those against other European teams.
So, for the normal visitor it seems to be more important to know the opponent than to have a (hopefully) better level of hockey.
Spent some time in Russia this year and man, there are some folks involved with the KHL that truly want to see it expand as far as possible. Lots of talk about having teams in towns like London and Paris, much less Oslo, Berlin, Copenhagen, and Vienna. They continue to point to the Rigas, Minsks and Bratislavas of the world, stating that these countries could find ways to get a lot of their own national team players together at one site to compete in Europe's best league.

They honestly don't see why these cities would have anything against that.

Quote:
Edit:
@Chapin Landvogt: That's what the DEB should exist for in my opinion: youth hockey, national team, maybe referees. Not for organizing the pro-league(s)...
I would personally agree with that for the most part, the thing is, the DEB won't be doing much in organizing youth hockey within the organizations of the pro teams, at least that's my impression. And if they aren't working together, then I'm not sure who is keeping those organizations 'committed' to investing in that aspect. Probably no-one.

Then again, not quite sure why the DEB can't do things much like USA Hockey does stateside?

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06-16-2013, 03:23 AM
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"The sad state of German hockey" sums it up precisely. My frustration is at a point where I just don't care anymore. I do follow my Kölner Haie and a bit of the DEL, but otherwise I don't have any interest in German hockey.

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06-16-2013, 10:47 AM
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Peppi Heiss
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Me too. Hockey used to be huge here in Germany (late 80s/early 90s). Now nearly nobody cares. I do understand why.
Relegation and promotion are European traditions. Without that - people have no interest in the sport.

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06-17-2013, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Spent some time in Russia this year and man, there are some folks involved with the KHL that truly want to see it expand as far as possible. Lots of talk about having teams in towns like London and Paris, much less Oslo, Berlin, Copenhagen, and Vienna. They continue to point to the Rigas, Minsks and Bratislavas of the world, stating that these countries could find ways to get a lot of their own national team players together at one site to compete in Europe's best league.

They honestly don't see why these cities would have anything against that.
Germany is a sure goal for the KHL because of its great market and population. Talks about fans accaption and rivalries come up in every place where the league expands, but Lev Prague has showed larger attandance than any team in Extraliga, while attendance of Sparta and Slavia has grown as well, proving that it's not a problem. I agree that the majority are spectators, not real fans of Lev, but it's a matter of time for new team to gain fans, whereever it is. Team in Germany can do the same way: to have a new team in the KHL and a partner/affiliated team in DEL, so people will be able to choose.
As for German side, having the KHL team can be good for NT to compete on a better level and a team will draw more interest in hockey in general, but it wouldn't solve other problems really, it's a job of a hockey federation.
10k seats arenas that meet the regulations of the KHL team are located Berlin, Hamburg, Hannover, Dusseldorf, Cologne, Mannheim, Munich, Stuttgart, Halle (okay for hockey?) and Dortmund (?). Only 1 team from Germany can join now, because the league cannot take more than 32 teams.

PS The rumors about London and Paris are quite old and there is nothing official about these cities. Actually, there were more rumors about Stavanger (Norway's oil capital), Hannover and even Asia Division. Indeed, as you mentioned, KHL planned to expand to "exotic" hockey places: Milan and Gdansk to build base teams for NTs and will have team in Zagreb next season, but cases of Germany and Denmark, for example, are not that different.


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06-19-2013, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Peppi Heiss View Post
Me too. Hockey used to be huge here in Germany (late 80s/early 90s). Now nearly nobody cares. I do understand why.
Relegation and promotion are European traditions. Without that - people have no interest in the sport.
To sum this up for non-Germans here (simple curiosity), what's the current state of German pro hockey with regards to relegation? I understand the general relegation system (Swedish hockey as an example, and football in general), but does it not work with current German hockey? Some want it to work, others have abandoned it...? Cheers.

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06-19-2013, 03:30 PM
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Any idea on who should win now this is going to court? Also, I thought the "rogue" clubs were against the ESBG as well as the DEB but from all reports I have been reading, it seems like the ESBG is working in favour of the "rogue" clubs?

Either way, I hope the "rogue" clubs win, not only because I have liked some of their ideas, but because it brings back Kassel and Frankfurt and the possibility of promotion/relegation

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06-20-2013, 02:20 AM
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To sum this up for non-Germans here (simple curiosity), what's the current state of German pro hockey with regards to relegation? I understand the general relegation system (Swedish hockey as an example, and football in general), but does it not work with current German hockey? Some want it to work, others have abandoned it...? Cheers.
Right now the top league (DEL) is similar to the NHL when it comes to relegation, as in there is none. When a team cannot afford or does not want to play in the league anymore, like Hannover this off-season, teams from lower tier leagues may apply for their spot. They don't have to win their respective league to qualify, they just have to meet the requirements set by the DEL, which mostly regard financials, infrastructure, etc., of course it is preferable if they play at a good level, but it is not necessary.

Initially the leagues below the DEL were all controlled by the German hockey federation and there was the common european relegation and promotion system in place. But even then it happened that teams that earned promotion declined to be promoted because they could not afford the increase of travel costs, salarie, etc., that comes with playing in the better league.
However for the last 10 years the ESBG has been running the 2nd tier league (2.Bundesliga) and that further complicated things, because now even the relegation and promotion between 2nd and 3rd tier became problematic.
The teams that the ESBG would have welcomed in their league are the same teams that the DEB and the regional federations do not want to leave the Oberliga since they are their cash cows.

Right now it is really messed up.

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06-20-2013, 02:28 AM
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Any idea on who should win now this is going to court? Also, I thought the "rogue" clubs were against the ESBG as well as the DEB but from all reports I have been reading, it seems like the ESBG is working in favour of the "rogue" clubs?

Either way, I hope the "rogue" clubs win, not only because I have liked some of their ideas, but because it brings back Kassel and Frankfurt and the possibility of promotion/relegation
The rogue clubs made up the majority of the ESBG. The thing is that the last few years it was the DEL doing their thing, the ESBG was doing their thing and the DEB with all the lower tier leagues was doing something else.
Now the majority of clubs that were organized in the ESBG want to change their direction and kind of join with the DEL. A few former ESBG clubs do not support this and they sided with the DEB.

And since only a league that is recognized and accepted by the local hockey federation, in this case the DEB, is also accepted by the IIHF, any league formed by those 9 or 10 (if Landshut joins them) teams, will be considered a rogue league.

I hope this clarifies things a little.

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06-20-2013, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Maverick41 View Post
The rogue clubs made up the majority of the ESBG. The thing is that the last few years it was the DEL doing their thing, the ESBG was doing their thing and the DEB with all the lower tier leagues was doing something else.
Now the majority of clubs that were organized in the ESBG want to change their direction and kind of join with the DEL. A few former ESBG clubs do not support this and they sided with the DEB.

And since only a league that is recognized and accepted by the local hockey federation, in this case the DEB, is also accepted by the IIHF, any league formed by those 9 or 10 (if Landshut joins them) teams, will be considered a rogue league.

I hope this clarifies things a little.
Yes it does, thank you. For some reason, I always though the ESBG was more so the overseeing organization of the 2.Bundesliga that was "buddy buddy" with the DEB which made the clubs upset.

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06-26-2013, 10:03 AM
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I personally hope, the DEL II will grow and be acknowledged, I'd like to see teams going down from DEL I to DEL II and best teams raising from DEL II to DEL I as the current state of DEL was always boring, it never meant anything if you play at the last place all the time.

Also, I can't stand those DEB guys, some bunch of morons with no clue what'd be good for german icehockey.

As for KHL I personally wouldn't want to see that. In Berlin we surely say "pro Euroleague" as the DEL itself still remains a circus league, but KHL is just too much, too big, too far away in my opinion. The costs for the teams and fans would expand much, which is not an option.

Well, the euro trophy on the other hand is usually sth. most ppl don't care about. And you can see it clearly here in Berlin: ET is back at our Wellblechpalast, where the Eisbären used to play in their old days.
Around 5.000 people can watch the games there, so almost 1/3 of the O2 World's population.

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06-26-2013, 10:20 AM
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I personally hope, the DEL II will grow and be acknowledged, I'd like to see teams going down from DEL I to DEL II and best teams raising from DEL II to DEL I as the current state of DEL was always boring, it never meant anything if you play at the last place all the time.

Also, I can't stand those DEB guys, some bunch of morons with no clue what'd be good for german icehockey.

As for KHL I personally wouldn't want to see that. In Berlin we surely say "pro Euroleague" as the DEL itself still remains a circus league, but KHL is just too much, too big, too far away in my opinion. The costs for the teams and fans would expand much, which is not an option.

Well, the euro trophy on the other hand is usually sth. most ppl don't care about. And you can see it clearly here in Berlin: ET is back at our Wellblechpalast, where the Eisbären used to play in their old days.
Around 5.000 people can watch the games there, so almost 1/3 of the O2 World's population.
There will be no Euroleague in hockey, I know that something is in progress but believe me, it will fail... more realistic is Red Bull in KHL than Euroleague. Or, there can be Euroleague, but it will be joke like ET.

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07-03-2013, 02:30 PM
  #22
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For those who can read German, and still care.

http://www.eishockeynews.de/aktuell/...erlaessig.html

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07-03-2013, 04:37 PM
  #23
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Since my team, the Preussen Berlin aka Berlin Capitals aka BSchC Preussen went bancrupt several times, the time of watching hockey games live regularly is over here in Berlin for me. It is a shame, that there is no derby in Berlin anymore in the DEL.

There are soooo many clubs with a huge history playing in the middle of nowhere now....

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07-03-2013, 06:02 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Maverick41 View Post
Right now the top league (DEL) is similar to the NHL when it comes to relegation, as in there is none. When a team cannot afford or does not want to play in the league anymore, like Hannover this off-season, teams from lower tier leagues may apply for their spot. They don't have to win their respective league to qualify, they just have to meet the requirements set by the DEL, which mostly regard financials, infrastructure, etc., of course it is preferable if they play at a good level, but it is not necessary.

Initially the leagues below the DEL were all controlled by the German hockey federation and there was the common european relegation and promotion system in place. But even then it happened that teams that earned promotion declined to be promoted because they could not afford the increase of travel costs, salarie, etc., that comes with playing in the better league.
However for the last 10 years the ESBG has been running the 2nd tier league (2.Bundesliga) and that further complicated things, because now even the relegation and promotion between 2nd and 3rd tier became problematic.
The teams that the ESBG would have welcomed in their league are the same teams that the DEB and the regional federations do not want to leave the Oberliga since they are their cash cows.

Right now it is really messed up.
Cheers. Sad stuff, hope things turn around.

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07-09-2013, 09:35 AM
  #25
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Really hope the 2nd league will play this year. The DEB is going to inform today what is their position. So, let's see what will happen. I'm not very confident

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