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Old
06-14-2013, 10:58 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
He's top 4 on a team that was destroyed in the first round of the playoffs.

Extrapolating on a PP guy in a 23 game season is dangerous, Diaz shouldn't be in the long term plan here.
By that logic...

Subban was No1 on a team that was destroyed in the first round of the playoffs, therefore Subban is not a no1 defensemen.

About Diaz - he was definitely playing like a top4 early this season but his concussion puts severe question marks since he didn't look the same after his return. We should use caution before casting him out.

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06-14-2013, 11:02 AM
  #402
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I REALLY have to question the people who constantly bring up the " we got destroyed by Ottawa" BS. Do you people know anything about hockey or even watch?

Making it sound like Ottawa dominated and was the far superior team means you obviously didn't go to the rink or turn on your TV or even your radio!

The story of the series was similar in all but the 2nd game...Habs dominate the play, Anderson stones us, Ottawa scores a weak one(s), Habs dominate again, pattern is repeated. In 2 of the games we got frustrated and they ran up the score as a result of frustration. That's not even mentionning game 4 with the brutal "kicked in" goal and late goal after 3 icings that should have been waived off. Not to mention having key guys(Emelin Eller Gionta Price) out or playing injured(Pacioretty Prust).

That series was a break or two from going 7 games and being a 7 game series in spite of the huge goaltending imbalance.

Any suggestions that this or that needs major changes or player X should be traded because of that series needs to be looked at with a whole lot of salt, not just a grain.

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06-14-2013, 11:06 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I REALLY have to question the people who constantly bring up the " we got destroyed by Ottawa" BS. Do you people know anything about hockey or even watch?

Making it sound like Ottawa dominated and was the far superior team means you obviously didn't go to the rink or turn on your TV or even your radio!

The story of the series was similar in all but the 2nd game...Habs dominate the play, Anderson stones us, Ottawa scores a weak one(s), Habs dominate again, pattern is repeated. In 2 of the games we got frustrated and they ran up the score as a result of frustration. That's not even mentionning game 4 with the brutal "kicked in" goal and late goal after 3 icings that should have been waived off. Not to mention having key guys(Emelin Eller Gionta Price) out or playing injured(Pacioretty Prust).

That series was a break or two from going 7 games and being a 7 game series in spite of the huge goaltending imbalance.

Any suggestions that this or that needs major changes or player X should be traded because of that series needs to be looked at with a whole lot of salt, not just a grain.
What are you saying, ice the same team and we should get better results next time?

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06-14-2013, 11:07 AM
  #404
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I do not want to offend anyone here, but to the person that wrote Diaz as being a top four defenseman in the NHL, that is just not right.

The only reason he gets the minutes he does in Montreal is, well it's Montreal.
Yeah and they don't play in the NHL right?

...and it's not like they finished 4th overall or something right?

You'll have to explain the "it's Montreal" reference? Does it make defensemen look much better than they are?

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06-14-2013, 11:07 AM
  #405
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I REALLY have to question the people who constantly bring up the " we got destroyed by Ottawa" BS. Do you people know anything about hockey or even watch?

Making it sound like Ottawa dominated and was the far superior team means you obviously didn't go to the rink or turn on your TV or even your radio!

The story of the series was similar in all but the 2nd game...Habs dominate the play, Anderson stones us, Ottawa scores a weak one(s), Habs dominate again, pattern is repeated. In 2 of the games we got frustrated and they ran up the score as a result of frustration. That's not even mentionning game 4 with the brutal "kicked in" goal and late goal after 3 icings that should have been waived off. Not to mention having key guys(Emelin Eller Gionta Price) out or playing injured(Pacioretty Prust).

That series was a break or two from going 7 games and being a 7 game series in spite of the huge goaltending imbalance.

Any suggestions that this or that needs major changes or player X should be traded because of that series needs to be looked at with a whole lot of salt, not just a grain.
Fair analysis. I was choked most of the series because of how we dominated them in the offensive and neutral zone and just couldn't score. It's not like we were totally ridden over the whole series. Despite the outcome, we had a very good series and this playoffs isn't necessarily a great indicator of some individuals abilities or worth to the team (Diaz, Price, Pacioretty, Gionta).

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06-14-2013, 11:09 AM
  #406
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For those ******** on Diaz, may I have to remind you that he played an essential role (before getting injured) in our success? We were getting a elite production offensively from him, some solid (quick and effective unlike those mammoths like O'Byrne and Murray who just bank it off the boards) breakout passes and some steady defense (blocked a lot of shots and wasn't getting outmuscled like he did when he came back from his concussion. Diaz (I know some are gonna twist this to show what's wrong with our team but whatever...) was Montreal's best defenseman after Subban and Markov. In february he was averaging almost 22 minutes (21:58) of ice time a game, and do you want to know what our record was during that month. 9 wins, 2 losses and 3 OT/SO losses. NOt bad a for a mediocre team... So instead of trading Diaz for marginal players who won't help the team long term or will barely fill any organizational needs other than toughness. How about we keep him and mentor him so he becomes our next Markov?

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06-14-2013, 11:13 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
What are you saying, ice the same team and we should get better results next time?
I'm pretty sure Price is usually a "good goalie" not a "terrible goalie". That alone makes the team a lot better.

Not to mention guys like Prust Pacioretty Gionta Price(last 2 games) Eller Emelin either were clearly playing hurt or not there at all, I haven't see any rule that says they can't play next year's playoffs.

I don't think we'll face a goalie playing like Anderson every year/series(.950%). He showed he was quite human the following series.

Hopefully we don't get shafted again like in game 4 by the on and off ice officials.

There is also the experience factor, 2/3 of the regulars were just getting their feet wet as regulars in the playoffs, that experience is valuable.

In sports the same team doesn't have the same result every year or Boston would have won the cup again last year, or LA would be winning it again.

You're trying to pain it black and white and nothing is ever black or white in sports.


Last edited by Monctonscout: 06-14-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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06-14-2013, 11:14 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
For those ******** on Diaz, may I have to remind you that he played an essential role (before getting injured) in our success? We were getting a elite production offensively from him, some solid (quick and effective unlike those mammoths like O'Byrne and Murray who just bank it off the boards) breakout passes and some steady defense (blocked a lot of shots and wasn't getting outmuscled like he did when he came back from his concussion. Diaz (I know some are gonna twist this to show what's wrong with our team but whatever...) was Montreal's best defenseman after Subban and Markov. In february he was averaging almost 22 minutes (21:58) of ice time a game, and do you want to know what our record was during that month. 9 wins, 2 losses and 3 OT/SO losses. NOt bad a for a mediocre team... So instead of trading Diaz for marginal players who won't help the team long term or will barely fill any organizational needs other than toughness. How about we keep him and mentor him so he becomes our next Markov?
Streit, STreit, STReit, STREit, STREIt, STREIT!

Agree wholeheartedly. He was coming off a concussion and onto a team laden with injuries. He wasn't fabulous in the playoffs but he was unbelievable throughout the regular season. Little bit worried we rushed him to be honest.

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06-14-2013, 11:14 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I REALLY have to question the people who constantly bring up the " we got destroyed by Ottawa" BS. Do you people know anything about hockey or even watch?
Making it sound like Ottawa dominated and was the far superior team means you obviously didn't go to the rink or turn on your TV or even your radio!

The story of the series was similar in all but the 2nd game...Habs dominate the play, Anderson stones us, Ottawa scores a weak one(s), Habs dominate again, pattern is repeated. In 2 of the games we got frustrated and they ran up the score as a result of frustration. That's not even mentionning game 4 with the brutal "kicked in" goal and late goal after 3 icings that should have been waived off. Not to mention having key guys(Emelin Eller Gionta Price) out or playing injured(Pacioretty Prust).

That series was a break or two from going 7 games and being a 7 game series in spite of the huge goaltending imbalance.

Any suggestions that this or that needs major changes or player X should be traded because of that series needs to be looked at with a whole lot of salt, not just a grain.
Oh yeah, what a line.

Watched every nanosecond of that series, 2 blowouts, bad 3rd period play, the crushing hits, the failed attempts at momentum change with fisticuffs. Bad goaltending at bad times. It was a real **** kicking. Do I need to have a proxy certify that I am watching the games to have the opinion that Raphael Diaz is not in the long term plans of the Canadiens and isn't a top 4 d-man on a contending team like Chicago or Boston? That's just common sense.

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06-14-2013, 11:15 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
What are you saying, ice the same team and we should get better results next time?
Its entirely possible. But saying we ''might'' get better results is probably a better way to word it.

It doesn't mean nothing needs to be changed but its ridiculous and reactionary to blame ''x'' or ''y'' players for the loss, then trade them. A series is a short span of time and few games, its possible for some players to have a bad stretch then rebound the next season. Hell, sometimes you see Stanley Cup winning teams that have players, even stars, who were invisible for a series or two yet the team wins anyways.

In the end Bergevin needs to follow a long term plan, not a changing one dictated by each years event. This years series against Ottawa is, in the end, insignificant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic
Oh yeah, what a line.

Watched every nanosecond of that series, 2 blowouts, bad 3rd period play, the crushing hits, the failed attempts at momentum change with fisticuffs. Bad goaltending at bad times. It was a real **** kicking. Do I need to have a proxy certify that I am watching the games to have the opinion that Raphael Diaz is not in the long term plans of the Canadiens and isn't a top 4 d-man on a contending team like Chicago or Boston? That's just common sense.
Milan Lucic was once nearly useless in a playoffs series that the Habs won. 2008. He turned out to be a pretty successful piece on the Bruins didn't he?


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06-14-2013, 11:44 AM
  #411
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Keep it real, man. Couldn't agree more. Enough with the Bickell, Clarkson, Scuderi etc.

Carl Klingberg, Devante Smith-Pelly, Boone Jenner, and Alex Chiasson are the "dark-horse" young players I'd like to add.
I'm sure Boone Jenner would be a Bergevin type of guy but I think the price would be a lot higher then you think. I'd like him too and I've thought about what it would take but from what I've read Columbus is also very high on him.

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06-14-2013, 11:46 AM
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Its entirely possible. But saying we ''might'' get better results is probably a better way to word it.

It doesn't mean nothing needs to be changed but its ridiculous and reactionary to blame ''x'' or ''y'' players for the loss, then trade them. A series is a short span of time and few games, its possible for some players to have a bad stretch then rebound the next season. Hell, sometimes you see Stanley Cup winning teams that have players, even stars, who were invisible for a series or two yet the team wins anyways.

In the end Bergevin needs to follow a long term plan, not a changing one dictated by each years event. This years series against Ottawa is, in the end, insignificant.



Milan Lucic was once nearly useless in a playoffs series that the Habs won. 2008. He turned out to be a pretty successful piece on the Bruins didn't he?
Changing the team roster structure isn't necessarily blaming "x" and "y", rather, improving the overall make up to make it a better mix. It's in the definition of insanity to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

Lucic was 19, it'd be like Tinordi in this case. I like Diaz but it's much too soon to crown him as a top 4 D.

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06-14-2013, 11:47 AM
  #413
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I'm pretty sure Price is usually a "good goalie" not a "terrible goalie". That alone makes the team a lot better.

Not to mention guys like Prust Pacioretty Gionta Price(last 2 games) Eller Emelin either were clearly playing hurt or not there at all, I haven't see any rule taht says they can't play next year's playoffs.

I don't think we'll face a goalie playing like Anderson every year/series(.950%). He showed he was quite human the following series.

Hopefully we don't get shafted again like in game 4 by the on and off ice officials.

There is also the experience factor, 2/3 of the regulars were just getting their feet wet as regulars in the playoffs, that experience is valuable.

In sports the same team doesn't have the same result every year or Boston would have won the cup again last year, or LA would be winning it again.

You're trying to pain it black and white and nothing is ever black or white in sports.
Although I agree with the genesis of your argument, I would say that the main reason why Anderson was so great against us and so bad against the Pens has a lot to do with talent... bring some ppg players on our team that can find the small holes and we might start talking about us being contenders. Too many small, honest, hard working Top 6 players with limited talent.

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06-14-2013, 11:58 AM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
He played over 20 minutes a game(22+ in the playoffs), was a plus player and on a 50 point pace, on what planet is that not top 4 calibre in the NHL?
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
He's top 4 on a team that was destroyed in the first round of the playoffs.

Extrapolating on a PP guy in a 23 game season is dangerous, Diaz shouldn't be in the long term plan here.
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
So what? Pittsburgh got "destroyed" 10x worse by Boston, does that mean they have to upgrade on Crosby and malkin as top 2 centers?

Basing an evaluation of a player based on 5 game period in inherently flawed, especially after you tell me that prorating his stats based on 23 games is "dangerous" then you go and pull something 5x worse...even worse when you consider the huge imbalance in goaltending. Diaz was average in that series, definitely not the reason we lost.

I guess we have to use the Ottawa series as the "truth" so we should be drafting 3-4 goalies among our early picks since goaltending was a huge issue in that series.
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You are all over the map. You are extrapolating off 23 games to project 50 points for Diaz.

I am saying that a team that was destroyed in the first round of the playoffs in no small part to the D and goaltending needs to have a player better than Raphael Diaz in it's second pairing position. IMO, not in the long term Hab picture .




So politely stated, and correct.
Guys, I have to agree with Agnostic and that other poster (sorry, forgot the name). Diaz, like I've said numerous times, is a #4/#5 fringe player...RIGHT NOW.

Diaz' Career NHL numbers: 82 GP, 30 PTS, 4 G, 26 A, -3, 36 PIM

Good for a Top 4...on Montreal. IMO, he got a lot of points at the beginning of this season because of PP time (NO PK...SUBBAN) and after that he got injured and regressed when he came back (clearly wasn't ready or something).

He can play top 4 minutes when it is required of him (aka when PK wasn't playing) but he could never play consistently well...

This is just my opinion of him. Don't have to take it as fact.

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06-14-2013, 12:06 PM
  #415
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Yeah and they don't play in the NHL right?

...and it's not like they finished 4th overall or something right?

You'll have to explain the "it's Montreal" reference? Does it make defensemen look much better than they are?
During half a season yes. If it had been a complete season i'm not even sure we make the playoffs truthfully.

Montreal reference = we have nothing better. Shame really.

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06-14-2013, 12:09 PM
  #416
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I'd like the Habs to try to get some bigger guys like Clayton Stoner, Boll, Rupp and Engelland. Not sure what the price would be, but I don't think we would be breaking the bank on salaries or picks/players.

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06-14-2013, 12:11 PM
  #417
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You are all over the map. You are extrapolating off 23 games to project 50 points for Diaz.

I am saying that a team that was destroyed in the first round of the playoffs in no small part to the D and goaltending needs to have a player better than Raphael Diaz in it's second pairing position. IMO, not in the long term Hab picture .
How am I all over the map?

You're the one using 5 games as the be al and end all but if I use 23 games it's a crime?

I'd like you to explain to me how in any way that series was a "destruction"?

You must have obviously not been watching those games.

If Diaz isn't in the Habs long term picture it won't be because he is bad or not a top 4 guy, it will be because somebody younger and better came along, which in itself is a good thing. At the end of the day we could do a whole lot worse than guys like Diaz Emelin Gorges as #3-4 guys.

The defense against Ottawa had nothing to do with Anderson standing on his head, had nothing to do with a lot of our regulars getting hurt or with Price giving up brutal goals or Budaj giving up even worse ones.

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06-14-2013, 12:12 PM
  #418
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I'd like the Habs to try to get some bigger guys like Clayton Stoner, Boll, Rupp and Engelland. Not sure what the price would be, but I don't think we would be breaking the bank on salaries or picks/players.
Big Boll fan here. How does that sound....

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06-14-2013, 12:15 PM
  #419
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During half a season yes. If it had been a complete season i'm not even sure we make the playoffs truthfully.

Montreal reference = we have nothing better. Shame really.
Half season or not it's not like we were playing against Junior teams. It was a condensed schedule playing in a division with 3 other playoff teams inclusing one playing in the finals. The level of competition was as high as anywhere in the NHL.

We must have some kind of superstars up front because according to experts here our defense sucks, plus Price sucks/had a brutal year(depending on who you listen to) and we STILL managed to finish top 4 overall in the whole NHL.


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06-14-2013, 12:15 PM
  #420
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I REALLY have to question the people who constantly bring up the " we got destroyed by Ottawa" BS. Do you people know anything about hockey or even watch?

Making it sound like Ottawa dominated and was the far superior team means you obviously didn't go to the rink or turn on your TV or even your radio!

The story of the series was similar in all but the 2nd game...Habs dominate the play, Anderson stones us, Ottawa scores a weak one(s), Habs dominate again, pattern is repeated. In 2 of the games we got frustrated and they ran up the score as a result of frustration. That's not even mentionning game 4 with the brutal "kicked in" goal and late goal after 3 icings that should have been waived off. Not to mention having key guys(Emelin Eller Gionta Price) out or playing injured(Pacioretty Prust).

That series was a break or two from going 7 games and being a 7 game series in spite of the huge goaltending imbalance.

Any suggestions that this or that needs major changes or player X should be traded because of that series needs to be looked at with a whole lot of salt, not just a grain.
You need to stop this condescending crap. You say it far too often. Furthermore, You have no idea what you're talking about.

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06-14-2013, 12:18 PM
  #421
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Although I agree with the genesis of your argument, I would say that the main reason why Anderson was so great against us and so bad against the Pens has a lot to do with talent... bring some ppg players on our team that can find the small holes and we might start talking about us being contenders. Too many small, honest, hard working Top 6 players with limited talent.
Talent has nothing to do with giving up bad angle goals, he went from being great to being mediocre. The following series Rask just stoned Boston, so obviously they were far from unstoppable.

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06-14-2013, 12:21 PM
  #422
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You need to stop this condescending crap. You say it far too often. Furthermore, You have no idea what you're talking about.
Anybody that says we got destroyed by Ottawa has no clue about hockey or wasn't watching. I stand by that, nad nothing condescending about it.

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06-14-2013, 12:27 PM
  #423
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Big Boll fan here. How does that sound....
I too am a Boll fan, Engelland and Boll, would make me a happy camper.

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06-14-2013, 12:27 PM
  #424
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Big Boll fan here. How does that sound....
That sounds friggin awesome WS

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06-14-2013, 12:30 PM
  #425
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Big Boll fan here. How does that sound....
I've wanted Boll or Crombeen for some time now.

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