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2013 NHL Entry Draft Talk 11.0

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Old
06-14-2013, 03:44 PM
  #451
phillytennis
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I'm pretty sure by French-Canadian, he means Quebecois, as in someone from Quebec, not what language he speaks primarily at home or what his last name is. Tread carefully with this discussion.

While it's rare that it would be that close, when prospects are on the same level, the order of tiebreakers should go like this IMO:

1. Need (This team needs LWs and stay at home defensemen more than it needs PMDs)

2. Toughness

3. Size

4. Local factor (Quebec of course, but even more so from Montreal and the surrounding suburbs is a bigger deal for me)

5. There ability to speak French and "character" bonus (they overcame a difficult childhood, once saved orphans from a burning building, etc)

6. Other

Having local players is a good thing, so yes, it's worth consideration. I think we will almost certainly get a few Quebecois players out of this draft, but it's not a factor in every pick.
Agreed...though I believe there are many on this board that need to be reminded that
there is an ABOVE AVERAGE crop of Q players that need to be strongly considered...
Drouin, Dauphin, Morin, Poirier, Gauthier, Carrier, Erne, MacKinnon, Carrier, Fucale,
Desrosiers.

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06-14-2013, 03:47 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by phillytennis View Post
Agreed...though I believe there are many on this board that need to be reminded that
there is an ABOVE AVERAGE crop of Q players that need to be strongly considered...
Drouin, Dauphin, Morin, Poirier, Gauthier, Carrier, Erne, MacKinnon, Carrier, Fucale,
Desrosiers.
I totally agree with that.

If there is one year where we have both quality players and an abundance of picks within the expected or projected value tiers when those players from the Q will be available to us, this is it.

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06-14-2013, 03:48 PM
  #453
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One of my friend's uncle works for the Canadiens. He said the Timmins and his scouts have been keeping an eye on Justin Bailey. When I say this I don't mean the Habs will pick Bailey. I mean they are seriously look at selecting him. I don't know if Bailey will still be there at #25. According to many articles, he's 6'4" 190lbs plays center and have good offensive ability. Scouts think he's still raw much like Ryan Getzalf during his draft year. I think the fact that he's half black, half white so people don't think highly of him as a hockey player. If PK Subban wins the Norris that racist mentality will change. I think if we can draft Bailey at #25, I hope Timmins drafts him.

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06-14-2013, 03:50 PM
  #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laboeuf View Post
One of my friend's uncle works for the Canadiens. He said the Timmins and his scouts have been keeping an eye on Justin Bailey. When I say this I don't mean the Habs will pick Bailey. I mean they are seriously look at selecting him. I don't know if Bailey will still be there at #25. According to many articles, he's 6'4" 190lbs plays center and have good offensive ability. Scouts think he's still raw much like Ryan Getzalf during his draft year. I think the fact that he's half black, half white so people don't think highly of him as a hockey player. If PK Subban wins the Norris that racist mentality will change. I think if we can draft Bailey at #25, I hope Timmins drafts him.
He should be there at 25. And most likely there at our early 2nds.

At their combine last week, apparently Bailey was the one who got by far the most attention from Timmins and the other scouts in terms of conversations on the ice in Bailey's group, that may be what your friend's uncle is talking about.

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06-14-2013, 03:53 PM
  #455
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LOL yea okay. They won't draft him because he's black... not because he's struggled to be consistent and healthy throughout the season.

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06-14-2013, 03:55 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Laboeuf View Post
I think the fact that he's half black, half white so people don't think highly of him as a hockey player.
I would tend to think that scouts in general are looking for skills, not race or ethnicity. I don't think that weighs one iota in the evaluation the teams will make of him.

HP ranks him 38th:

Quote:
Justin likes to have the puck on his stick and is always looking for scoring opportunities in the offensive zone. He has shown some flashes of creativity with the puck. He works hard to be reliable in the defensive zone and is good at assisting his defenders down low. He has a tremendous shot that fools many goaltenders. His skating stride is fairly choppy and he has issues generating speed in his first few steps. Although he is capable of reaching a good speed for a 6’3” forward. Bailey has size but rarely gets involved in the physical aspect of the game, which may be a confidence issue at this point. He should look to add strength to his frame in the offseason in preparation for next year.

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06-14-2013, 03:56 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
I just think that if someone is priviledged enough to be on on the air, it's unbecoming of them to use race and ethnic origin to draw up draft lists. That doesn't make me a "hater" -- just like things to be put in a perspective that is more objective.
Hey don't try to make it a race or ethnic issue. If the Red Wings target a player from Michigan...I see it as a good decision as long as the player who is being considered is equal to other players being considered...had the Vancouver Canucks targeted Carey Price...smart marketing move.

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06-14-2013, 03:57 PM
  #458
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I believe they should give a longer look than usual at Q prospects... Every chance the Q prospects have played on the same ice as other Junior players this season, they've compared favorably. Even some unspectacular, vanilla prospects...

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06-14-2013, 03:58 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
And we should tread carefully. Anyone born in Quebec is a "local" as far as I'm concerned. There is a world of a difference between a "French Canadian" and a "Quebecquer".

Bergevin should favor a Quebecquer (someone born in Quebec) where talent is similar or within the same value tier.

Race or ethnic origin should have nothing to do with the process.
Agreed, but a lot of people even without an agenda (through ignorance or laziness of doing research) will use the terms Quebecer/Quebecois and "French Canadian" interchangeably - which is problematic yes considering the league includes Anglo and Allophone Quebecers and Francophones from other parts of Canada, but I'm going to assume in this case the comment was harmless and not politically charged.

I'd prefer it if here people just call for "local players" to avoid any potential issues personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillytennis View Post
Agreed...though I believe there are many on this board that need to be reminded that
there is an ABOVE AVERAGE crop of Q players that need to be strongly considered...
Drouin, Dauphin, Morin, Poirier, Gauthier, Carrier, Erne, MacKinnon, Carrier, Fucale,
Desrosiers.
This is an unusually strong year from the Q, so odds are we'd be looking at Q prospects regardless..but if they intentionally focus a little harder on the Q for marketing/support purposes knowing that this is a good year to pick up local talent, it's no crime, as long as they aren't focusing exclusively on the Q at the expense of the rest of the world.

But yeah, there are very good odds the Habs will draft a player from Quebec or at least the Q this year, and speculation is pointless when there's so many Q-based players projected to go around where we are drafting to begin with.

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06-14-2013, 03:58 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by phillytennis View Post
Hey don't try to make it a race or ethnic issue. If the Red Wings target a player from Michigan...I see it as a good decision as long as the player who is being considered is equal to other players being considered...had the Vancouver Canucks targeted Carey Price...smart marketing move.
Dude, I'm not making anything, just re-read your post before you make gratuitous accusations.

You're proving my point. If Detroit chooses someone from Michigan, it's a geographical decision, not a racial one. If the Habs select a local, they're favoring someone born in Quebec, not some ethnic target. Point final.

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06-14-2013, 04:01 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I'd prefer it if here people just call for "local players" to avoid any potential issues personally.
That works.

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06-14-2013, 04:02 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Laboeuf View Post
One of my friend's uncle works for the Canadiens. He said the Timmins and his scouts have been keeping an eye on Justin Bailey. When I say this I don't mean the Habs will pick Bailey. I mean they are seriously look at selecting him. I don't know if Bailey will still be there at #25. According to many articles, he's 6'4" 190lbs plays center and have good offensive ability. Scouts think he's still raw much like Ryan Getzalf during his draft year. I think the fact that he's half black, half white so people don't think highly of him as a hockey player. If PK Subban wins the Norris that racist mentality will change. I think if we can draft Bailey at #25, I hope Timmins drafts him.
I really want Bailey...but not at 25, 34 and 36...WHY YOU SAY? There will be still better players available in the late 1st round and early 2nd round. I would trade Gorges to get an extra pick around 44...I would pick Justin Bailey at that point.
I suspect...he will be drafted between 42 and 52.

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06-14-2013, 04:16 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by phillytennis View Post
No problem...he could be English(west Island...ie. Louis Leblanc) or French. Though appr. 85% of Quebecers speak French.
You seem like a Stéphane Leroux hater.
Hes a Leroux hater.

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06-14-2013, 04:21 PM
  #464
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I heard he could go around you or through you and he had a nice skill set. Seems to be someone we could use for sure.
Absolutely. The "problem" with him, or so people that seems to know him would say, is that he might have a Perron type of attitude. To which I'd welcome and brake it IF necessary. That should never intimidate a team from drafting a player. And mostly when your vet core is REALLY in place. I guess you could say that we already have one guy like that in our system in Beaulieu....so we'll know what it means. Somehow, from Grant, I shouldn't hold my breath for him. We are most likely not interested. Fine. They did more tests on him that I did....but I'll reserve the right in 4 years to gloat about him if he does great.....or to not remind people of how great I thought of him if he doesn't....Though that won't work...there are experts in here who always remember those things...

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06-14-2013, 04:34 PM
  #465
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Hes a Leroux hater.
I'm just attempting to level the playing field, your Honour.

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06-14-2013, 04:38 PM
  #466
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I'm just attempting to level the playing field, your Honour.
Runner 77...bizzare interpretation...I still feel you're a Leroux hater, probably RDS hater.

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06-14-2013, 04:44 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by phillytennis View Post
Runner 77...bizzare interpretation...I still feel you're a Leroux hater, probably RDS hater.
I think you're a poor judge of character.

You know nothing about me.

Just because I find it reprehensible that Leroux takes it upon himself to draw up lists based on a player being "de souche", does not make me a "hater". I don't hate the man, I hate that he comes up with a list of this nature, which no redeeming value. I otherwise listen to his comments.

And I have been watching RDS since its inception.

There is nothing "bizarre" about a local player being properly referenced as a local player, even if that may irritate your sensibilities.


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06-14-2013, 04:51 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
I think you're a poor judge of character.

You know nothing about me.

Just because I find it reprehensible that Leroux takes it upon himself to draw up lists based on a player being "de souche", does not make me a "hater". I don't hate the man, I hate that he comes up with a list of this nature, which has little redeeming value. I otherwise listen to his comments.

And I have been watching RDS since its inception.

There is nothing "bizarre" about a local player being properly referenced as a local player, even if that may irritate your sensibilities.
Good...thank you for your clarification...case closed!!!

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06-14-2013, 04:53 PM
  #469
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So I couldn't really find anything extraordinary about my little research but here is the list of overage players from 2003 to 2010 and my observations.

Drafting overage players in the first round

2003:
G Marc-André Fleury (1)
F Eric Staal (2)
F Nikolai Zherdev (4)
F Thomas Vanek (5)
F Milan Michalek (6)
F Hugh Jessiman(12)
F Dustin Brown (13)
F Zach Parise (17)
D Mark Stuart(21)
F Ryan Kesler (23)
F Brian Boyle (26)
F Jeff Tambellini(27)
F Patrick Eaves(29)

2004:
F Alex Ovechkin (1)
F Andrew Ladd (4)
G Al Montoya (6)
F Rotislav Olesz (7)
F Alexandre Picard(8)
F Drew Stafford (13)
F Travis Zajac (20)
F Lukas Kaspar (22)
D Andrej Meszaros(23)
D Mike Green (29)

2005:
F Benoit Pouliot (4)
F Marek Zagrapan (13)
D Sasha Pokulok (14)
F Alex Bourret (16)
D Matt Lashoff (22)
F T.J Oshie (24)
D Matt Niskanen(28)
2006:
F Nicklas Backstrom (4)
F Phil Kessel (5)
F Derick Brassard(6)
F Bryan Little (12)
F Michael Grabner(14)
F Trevor Lewis(17)
F Chris Stewart(18)
D Mark Mitera (19)
F Nick Foligno(28)

2007:
F Patrick Kane (1)
F Zach Hamill (8)
D Keaton Ellerby (10)
F Max Pacioretty (22)
F David Perron (26)

2008:
D Drew Doughty (2)
D Luke Schenn (5)
F Colin Wilson (7)
F Mikkel Boedker (8)
F Josh Bailey (9)
F Zach Boychuk (14)
G Chet Pickard (18)
F Tyler Ennis (26)
F Viktor Thikonov(29)
G Thomas McCollum(30)

2009:
D Viktor Hedman (2)
F Nazem Kadri (7)
D Dimitri Kulikov (14)
D David Rundblad (17)
D John Moore (21)
F Jordan Schroeder(22)
F Marcus Johansson (24)
F Jordan Caron (25)

2010:
F Taylor Hall (1)
F Alexander Burmistrov (8)
D Cam Fowler (12)
F Vladimir Tarasenko (16)
F Joey Hishon (17)
F Beau Bennett (20)
F Riley Sheanan (21)
F Brock Nelson (30)

Observations:
11 out of 15 defenseman panned out for a total of 73% which is really good, especially offensive defensemans(Beaulieu)
1rst or 2nd overall overage players are all superstars(Seth Jones should mathematically be one too)
Zherdev and Pouliot were the only top5 picks to not pan out, out of 14 players.
1 of 4 goalies (Fleury, Montoya, Pickard, McCollum) panned out (yet), Pickard and McCollum are still young. Fleury was picked 1rst overall and is... mehhh
From 6 to 10: Kadri, Michalek and Burmistrov are the stand out players out of 12. Tweeners like Wilson, Bailey, Boedker are the other noticeable ones. (25% chance solid Top6 players, 58% chance tweeners and better)
Forwards in the 20-30 range: Don’t expect them to build a bigger offensive game than they had in juniors. If you wonder if their offensive abilities will translate, it probably won’t.
(Sounds exactly like Gauthier)

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06-14-2013, 04:54 PM
  #470
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My Three Round Mock

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1#post67494143

Habs Picks:

25- Valentyn (Tino) Zykov, RW, Baie-Comeau
34-Jacob De la Rose, LW, Leksands,
36-Laurent Dauphin, C, Chicoutimi
55-Jonathan-Ismael (Le Grand Tigre) Diaby, D, Victoriaville
71-Anthony Duclair, LW, Quebec
85-Cole Cassels, C, Oshawa

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06-14-2013, 04:55 PM
  #471
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Good...thank you for your clarification...case closed!!!
À tout seigneur, tout honeur. Le plaisir est le mien.

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06-14-2013, 05:00 PM
  #472
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Originally Posted by Laboeuf View Post
One of my friend's uncle works for the Canadiens. He said the Timmins and his scouts have been keeping an eye on Justin Bailey. When I say this I don't mean the Habs will pick Bailey. I mean they are seriously look at selecting him. I don't know if Bailey will still be there at #25. According to many articles, he's 6'4" 190lbs plays center and have good offensive ability. Scouts think he's still raw much like Ryan Getzalf during his draft year. I think the fact that he's half black, half white so people don't think highly of him as a hockey player. If PK Subban wins the Norris that racist mentality will change. I think if we can draft Bailey at #25, I hope Timmins drafts him.
AWESOME. I've been trying to pump his tires a little bit since I got to watch a full game of his. For what it's worth, he also seems like a pretty down-to-earth kid on top of all his physical tools. Very boom or bust and I find him to be one of the most intriguing prospects available. I don't think there's any problem with his race or anything like that, that's just crazy. He should be there when we pick, it'll be interesting to see where he goes and who takes a chance on him.

Wasn't there another 6'4 center with great offensive ability that made it pretty big in Montreal? Beaulieu or Bordeleau or something?

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06-14-2013, 05:00 PM
  #473
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Seems I'm the only Carrier fan around here....Big fan that is. Not 1st round, but DEFINITE 2nd round. And not 55 as he should be gone.
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He's one of the most skilled and gifted guy in the Q this season, he's a tank also.
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Absolutely. The "problem" with him, or so people that seems to know him would say, is that he might have a Perron type of attitude. To which I'd welcome and brake it IF necessary. That should never intimidate a team from drafting a player. And mostly when your vet core is REALLY in place. I guess you could say that we already have one guy like that in our system in Beaulieu....so we'll know what it means. Somehow, from Grant, I shouldn't hold my breath for him. We are most likely not interested. Fine. They did more tests on him that I did....but I'll reserve the right in 4 years to gloat about him if he does great.....or to not remind people of how great I thought of him if he doesn't....Though that won't work...there are experts in here who always remember those things...
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06-14-2013, 05:10 PM
  #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinordiandSubban View Post
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1#post67494143

Habs Picks:

25- Valentyn (Tino) Zykov, RW, Baie-Comeau
34-Jacob De la Rose, LW, Leksands,
36-Laurent Dauphin, C, Chicoutimi
55-Jonathan-Ismael (Le Grand Tigre) Diaby, D, Victoriaville
71-Anthony Duclair, LW, Quebec
85-Cole Cassels, C, Oshawa
I would NOT be a happy camper.

Like Zykov
De La Rose way too early
Dauphin is fine.
Diaby is too early
Duclair is... Duclair. I do not like him.
Don't mind Cassells but I wouldn't take him that early either.

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06-14-2013, 05:18 PM
  #475
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Originally Posted by Laboeuf View Post
One of my friend's uncle works for the Canadiens. He said the Timmins and his scouts have been keeping an eye on Justin Bailey. When I say this I don't mean the Habs will pick Bailey. I mean they are seriously look at selecting him. I don't know if Bailey will still be there at #25. According to many articles, he's 6'4" 190lbs plays center and have good offensive ability. Scouts think he's still raw much like Ryan Getzalf during his draft year. I think the fact that he's half black, half white so people don't think highly of him as a hockey player. If PK Subban wins the Norris that racist mentality will change. I think if we can draft Bailey at #25, I hope Timmins drafts him.
I have found in my lifetime, that people making remarks about someone being " Half-Smoked or Salt & Pepper " usually can care less about any ethnicity. Others that make judgements about a person's abilities due to their race, I usually blackened their eyes for them. Just a "white boy thing I guess" normal reaction "when I was young". Now that I'm older, I still feel the same about people of prejudice. Nowadays people aren't like that, at least around my neighborhood. Justin Bailey would be a great pick and should be chosen with #34 or #36 IMO and if Pat Lafontaine and Timmins like him then all Hab fans should be "on board" just my opinion "For What It's Worth".

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